Chavez is not worse than Uribe.

Rikito says on Mar 3, 2009, 07:34:

why are you dong this? this guy wants to turn Colombia into a puppet of Venezuela. It is a well known and proven fact that he funds terrorists orgs. that think as he does like FARC. In shorty he wants all of South America made in his image and likeness. There are also many articles that you can obtain from the Internet that describes what he does to his own people. You have been around here for two years...I am curious as to what you hope to gain by this. I have read your posts many times...you make valuable contributions many times and I know that you are well versed in this guy and know exactly what he does.

In fact, you are probalby more equipped to tell us than us tell you.

...and so it goes

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quantum says on Mar 3, 2009, 08:05:

Well, once again it seems to depend greatly on what u read. There are official academic studies done on "8 yrs of Venez under Chavez" and the numbers come out pretty impressive. Shocked the hell outta me. Apparently in respect to many categories not the least of which would be reducing poverty, he has made great strides. I have no doubt that Chavez has a burden for the poor in Venezuela. He comes from there. Its just the way he goes about it and the way he shoots off his mouth all the time. Sometimes he really hits home and I say to myself. "Wow, the man has just spoken the truth". Which u so rarely hear in the political world. He even reads intelligent books, "Hey Dude Wheres My Country" by Michael Moore being one of many. To the extent that he has or continues to support the FARC, hes way out of line and needs to be read the riot act. Also, very importantly in my mind, it seems that he has not been able to put law and order on the streets of Caracas and that is telling. Now the most violent and murderous place in Latin America. Who in their right mind wants to go to Caracas? It would seem to me that if Chavez is really interested in improving quality of life in Venezuela, then he should start by cleaning up the dangerous streets of the capital. If hes not cabable of doing that, then what good is he? Doling out free money and foodstamps to the poor who are getting accostumed to theze monthly handouts and hang out watching novelas and playing cards waiting for the next check. There cant be much future in this approach to eliminating poverty. Time will tell. Not a lot of surplus cash floating around Venez at the moment. This next year will be telling for Chavez, O'bama and the rest of us.......

quantum

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quantum says on Mar 3, 2009, 08:16:

Oh yeah, one more thing. To my knowledge Uribe has not messed with the internal affairs of Venezuela, although I have heard reports of Paramilitaries causing trouble in the the capital. Venezuelans have told me this, and that numerous paras have been arrested and thrown in the clink for violence related disturbances in Caracas and I asked them why weve never seen anything in the international press about it, and they told me its all over the Venez press, but apparently muzzled on the international level. Anybody have any insights into this? This nebulous report aside, at least Uribe concerns himself with the serious matters of his own country and has actually made great strides at improving it. Who wanted to invest in Colombia 8 yrs ago? How much investment in the last 5 yrs? Whos investing in Venezuela theze daze?

quantum

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2009, 08:33:

"I have read your posts many times...you make valuable contributions many times and I know that you are well versed in this guy and know exactly what he does."

Thank you Rikito for your compliment! I'll be honest, it's nice to know someone notices what I say ;)

I do not know much about Venezuela's internal politics, other than the recent referendums, but my issue and disdain for Chavez lies more with his foreign policy towards Colombia rather than either domestic policy (of which I know little, other than a few statistics that seem to paint him in good light) or foreign policy towards Bolivia, for example. Take what quantum has posted, and it is exactly that train of thought that made me want to begin this thread.

Personally, I have always been a staunch supporter of Uribe and have thought Chavez arrogant, ignorant and wrong when it comes to Colombian affairs. His blind support of Castro is also questionable, but his support of Morales, even though it is to meet his own interests, is admirable.

Furthermore, where is the documented evidence that Chavez supports terrorist organizations? I would be interested to see it, because to my knowledge it does not exist, but if it does, please bring it to my attention. Otherwise, such claims would be mere speculation.

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critter says on Mar 3, 2009, 08:40:

What's wrong with Chavez?

Besides sponsoring terrorists and aiding and abetting narcos from all over the world, making alliances with dictators (with very bad intentions), and igniting an arms race in latin america (not excluding nuclear capabilities),he has completely eliminated freedom of speech/freedom of the press in Venezuela. Anyone who speaks against him in word or gesture will pay dearly (they are blacklisted, blackballed, blackmailed, imprisoned, and/or murdered). Meanwhile corruption, violent crimes, and inflation are at all-time highs. Granted, Uribe is no boy scout (his ties to paracos and abuse of power have not gone unnoticed), but his ambitions (to become filthy rich) pale in comparison to the cocaine-addicted, power hungry chavez (he really thinks he could, some day, rule the world).

"Spending eternity in a bad place is a long time!"

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webmanco says on Mar 3, 2009, 08:57:

In addition to all of the above, it might be that Chavez is not liked because his country has lots of petroleum and is not bending over as easy. One thing for sure he has a loose tongue, sometimes a few nuts and bolts.

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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mosvar says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:01:

Great another set-up thread. I entertained a thread much like this a while ago. Gave some valid points, and in turn it was deleted. Wish I could offer some valuable knowledge and insight into this subject but am fearful to waste my time.

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critter says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:12:

"In addition to all of the above, it might be that Chavez is not liked because his country has lots of petroleum and is not bending over as easy"

Are you saying that people are envious of Chavez because of the vast oil reserves in Venezuela and dislike him as a result? And as far as "not bending over as easy" goes, he's taking it (without lubrication) "where the sun don't shine" on oil prices, just like the rest of the lackey OPEC cartel. That's why he had to pull 12 billion out of the piggy bank

"Spending eternity in a bad place is a long time!"

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:15:

Critter, where's the evidence for your claims?

Like him or not, Chavez was legitimately elected by the people of Venezuela under free and fair elections, much like Uribe. That's the point of the thread, to discuss exactly what can emperically and definitely be argued against Hugo to discredit him, what he has done that is undemocratic, and why he should or should not be held in any moral level above or below beloved Uribe, who also has some demons in his closet, which to be honest are based on speculation as well.

movsar, i'm sure your comments would be appreciated, regardless of what stance you take.

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santoblas says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:17:

the truth as usual is in the middle...they are both politicians and always have their fingers in the air...uribe has the additional burden of having to please the states to keep the money flowing and in power

..chavez works the opposite way by inflaming the people with rhetoric about the bad old usa

...anybody who backs one over the other is partisan from the getgo

http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/making/warprayer.html

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turnmeon says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:19:

what i have against Chavez? well the answer is easy, hes just doing what Hitler did on Germany, if you ignore the history and lack some basic knowledge you may think im crazy, but did you know Hitler was a socialist? he was a revolutionary and everything Chavez is saying right now have been said by Hitler before, also everything Chavez have done so far is the same that Hitler did when he took the power in germany.

So having a NAZI president who also follow the FACIST ideals of the comunist labor party of Itlay and his leader musolini does not make me happy at all, but worries me.

oh and btw if you are one of those who thin than Hitler and Musolini were from the far right, here are a few links to prove you wrong.

http://ray-dox.blogspot.com/2006/08/this-article-is-published-on-inter...

http://ray-dox.blogspot.com/2007/05/semitism-and-antisemitism.html

link in spanish
http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/963810/El-Fascismo-y-el-Nazismo-como...

part two link in spanish
http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/969464/El-Fascismo-y-el-Nazismo-como...

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critter says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:20:

"Like him or not, Chavez was legitimately elected by the people of Venezuela under free and fair elections, much like Uribe"

I'll show you my evidence, if you show me yours first.

"Spending eternity in a bad place is a long time!"

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turnmeon says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:38:

"in America he is p0rrayed as a buffoon"

i have to agree with azunoman, i have talked to people from all over the american continent and they all agree that Cahvez is a loco and a payaso

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webmanco says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:38:

It is not out sports that Obama is working in getting the old USA less dependant on oil, by stating Chavez not bending as easy is that the guy is not kissing any other country´s president, he speaks his mind and even though he is wrong at many times, the true is many countries need oil.

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2009, 09:46:

Proof of fair venezuelan elections:
www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/Electoral%20Observers.pdf

That is my evidence critter, many international bodies praising the Venezuelan election prodecures. Now show me yours.

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turnmeon says on Mar 3, 2009, 10:17:

Chavez = Hitler
Chavez party = NAZI party

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Gator says on Mar 3, 2009, 10:54:

manINred:

1. Make an untrue statement, preferably on the subject of something about
which you know nothing.
2. Express astonishment that your source could possibly be inaccurate.
3. Demand what motivation your source would have to lie.
4. Assert that the other party's inability to articulate this motivation is
tantamount to proof that your source is not lying.
5. Change the subject

Alternatively:

1. Make an untrue statement.
2. Deny that you said what you said.
3. Deny that the other party understood what you said.
4. Deny that the words you used mean what the other party claims they mean.
5. Redefine your definition and hope the other person forgets the previous
one. Repeat as needed.
6. Assert that since definitions are irrelevant and subjective, the other person is
mean-spirited, racist, sexist, intolerant and obsessive.
7. Change the subject.

Remembe,manINred, as long as you haven't admitted you're wrong, you are right. Any attempt to demonstrate otherwise is evidence of criminal hate and probably mental imbalance on the part of the poster. Never forget that an answer to a question you have asked should always be regarded as a personal attack if the answer is something you don't like

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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mundoflex says on Mar 3, 2009, 12:19:

turnmeon your IQ=Frenchfrie

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Rikito says on Mar 3, 2009, 13:56:

mundoflex...you don't think that Chavez is a little Hitlerish. I sure do and many, many people in here do also. He is the lowest form of life. He lies to his own citizens about his true intentions. The only that would set him back is the piece of shit Army he has. They wouldn't last 24 hours in an all out with Colombia due to Colombia’s frontline experience. Remember this friend...he is a liar. He lies to himself and to his citizens and everyone else. He wants nothing less than the same legacy as Castro. Fortunately he won't be alive long enough to achieve that goal.

...and so it goes

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poco says on Mar 3, 2009, 14:02:

Chavez is a lying P.O.S.

Venzeuela supports the FARC, ELN. and assists in mucking around with Columbia.

NOT A LYING POS ??? Watch this video of Chavez - pre election

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2009, 14:07:

Gator, honestly I do not follow you. Could you please elaborate?

All I am asking is legitimate sources that can be used to prove Chavez to be undemocratic or morally below Uribe. Along the lines of what Poco just posted. His video does not prove that he supports the FARC or ELN, but it does show an underlying trait of hypocrisy/deceit.

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Morrongo says on Mar 3, 2009, 14:44:

Chavez ,the character he is, deeply splits the people of Venezuela and will also members of this board. A man of this nature will polarize opinion worldwide. I know Venezuela to the extent of spending some months there, I think opinions of those who have live there will bod us in good stead whether the Election were true and fair.To live in a Country , gives you that insight that is impossible to know hoofing around a while .I don't suspect for a minute the elections were unfair. However in my time spent there,I was more than a little concerned over his parties propaganda machine, even with this behind him ,he squeaked in by a gnats antenna.

You can go into the positives and negatives of his reign, that would need long debate,not postings. Overall, I´m more than a little uneasy with his final goals, I personally think some of his structuring are positives for Venezuela and others I look on in horror. Like I said those who live there will have a more accurate feel to whats going on, from an outsider looking in, I fear what could progress in the future, the counter balance to this is he has to carry his Army with him (at present)if he wants to do anything outlandish and that's not a done deal.


Maninred... how can you debate with proof ,he is morally below Uribe, quite difficult. Using what factual information we have to hand,it would appear Chavez wants to up the anti at any possible opportunity,mobilising parts of his Army to the Colombia border,or expelling this Ambassador or that Ambassador for reasons that does not strike you as very grave matters. Uribe in my opinion is a far more nifty politician and leader,he tends to keeps his morals firmly in Colombia.

On a footnote, to model yourself on Cuba is not perhaps the smartmove in the smartmove box,a Country that will have to reinvent its self or collapse, China would of been more logical if he wants his revolution to create on going financial prosperity for all.

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makopp5 says on Mar 3, 2009, 19:32:

How many people Chavez is killing, because it{s his fault the there is a big increase in crime. In Colombia the crime rate was going dow.. How many lives saved uribe with his politics.

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poco says on Mar 3, 2009, 19:58:

Quote: Gator, honestly I do not follow you. Could you please elaborate?
===================
I doubt he is motivated.

Me,, I think you have been around long enough not to make idiodic statements. I guess not.



Chavez was less vocal after it was announced Colombia had found Reyes laptop.. Ha,, a lot less ignorant babble.

Are you just trying to educate new folks?

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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mundoflex says on Mar 3, 2009, 20:10:

Rikito and Maninred
Rikito the only thing what they have together,both are dumpfucks,i m just cant compare right and left wing ,it was a misunderstanding because of not exprecing good enough,so sorry rikito,english is not my first language¡
To meninred ,,of course chavez is a big farc supporter how farc helped him out while he was in jail,what they found on reyes computer,well can be a fool as well,but fact is that mr.hugo built up 2 statues from reyes and from marulanda as a never forget this heroes,what else as a support you need???

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2009, 20:36:

No Poco, I'm trying to educate myself.

The point of this thread was to find sources that prove Chavez's connection with Las FARC, or where he has acted in an illegal/undemocratic way in his campaign or throuhgout his presidency. You have been the only one to actually try and do that, especially with that video you just posted, which I appreciate by the way (i have never seen that, and it is shocking actually that he is so shamelessly blatant). I'll just ignore the ad hom you slotted in. By the way, what was found on Reyes' laptop? Through my own investigation I never found any explicit definitive statements with proof by the Colombian government directly linking Reyes with Chavez or his government.

The title : "Chavez is no worse than Uribe" is an ambiguous, contextual judgement call open to debate, not a definite claim by any means. This should have been made clear by my premise pleading for definitive proof that Chavez has acted in an illegal/undemocratic way, evidence of which I still have seen none of. If for some reason the title offends anybody, I apologize. Ironic, since I have never cared for Chavez and have been an Uribe supporter since 2003, which remains inconsequential for the purposes of this thread.

The only reason I started this thread was because the other day it occurred to me as I debated with a Chavista about the politics of the region, that I could not point out anything that Chavez had done which was either illegal or undemocratic. His stance on the FARC is certainly not admirable, and I am aware of his foreign policy towards Colombia (which is why I personally do not care for him at all), but that aside, he was elected in a free and fair election as observed by several international bodies (feel free to discredit the source I provided, I am, unlike Gator assumes/insinuates, open to the possibility that it is flawed). Chavez maintains support of enough Venezuelan people to keep him in power legally. We must concede therefore that he benefits a lot of people.

The closest (definitive) thing I have found about Chavez that is of questionable legality is the failure to renew a television outlet because of claims that the television was planning a coup against his regime. But, it is illegal to plan a coup anyway... so I assume there should have been some consequence to 'planning' a coup, claims which I suspect were greatly exagerated in the first place.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/15/chavez-venezuela-poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6215815.stm

And as for the claims that I have seen on this thread of "he kills lots of innocents" or "He financially aids and harbours terrorists", well, that holds no water without any proof.

And remember, anti-Uribistas do not hesitate to point out the breach of Ecuadorian sovereignty of last year, whcih was definitely illegal...

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manINred says on Mar 3, 2009, 20:50:

mundoflex, there was a huge fiasco with the interpretation of the documents, with many claims being made by all sides.

And from what I understand, the financial links were a) hazy and b) never verifiable anyway.

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romy says on Mar 3, 2009, 21:01:

MIR- The biggest issue that I find with Chavez is his intolerance for opposition, which I believe is undemocratic. This includes restriction of the press and limiting the work by human rights monitoring agencies. However, if you are making a comparison with Uribe, there isn't much of a difference.
What is his relationship with farc? is a question many here have answered with no facts. In the end no proof has been found that Chavez has sponsored farc. It does however remain controversial if ideological support is enough for condemnation. Especially for someone that is well known for running his mouth, saying things like "good revolutionaries" is likely to be something just to stir up emotions. Just like he blames the yankees for the evils in the world. After all, he's living an ideological war that most assumed had ended with the USSR.

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Edy Gusano says on Mar 3, 2009, 21:05:

I had a conversation with a friend of mine in Santa Marta. He is an orange juice vendor and lives hand to mouth pretty much on a daily basis. He is quite bitter about the poverty that he has had to endure and is himself a chavista. It's one thing to attack Chaves because he is ideologically counter to what you have experienced in the states, but quite another thing entirely to understand what these desperately poor people endure in their daily lives. If I were in just such a state as many Colombians that I have talked with, I would probably want to be a Chavista simply because the higher classes don't give an inch!
What other opportunities do these people have except to throw their lot in with something that gives them some sort of hope that change could take place for them?

You want perspective on how big things are over here in South America? take a bus from Barranquilla down to Argentina and back!

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romy says on Mar 3, 2009, 21:09:

oh and I wanted to add that Chavistas want to have a candidate for next year's presidential elections http://colombiareports.com/colombian-news/news/3014-chavistas-want-can...

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Man Tequila says on Mar 3, 2009, 22:03:

I think Uribe is better than Chavez, but of course, where you stand depends on where you sit.

Chavez was democratically elected. Uribe was not? Chavez wants to be in power for at least ten years, possibly in perpetuity, to continue his Bolivarian revolution. Uribe was thought to be seeking a third term.

Chavez has a foreign policy of making schoolyard comments about the US and long jingoistic speeches about socialism. Irfrespective of this, he does cozy up to very shady foreign dictators, including Iran, and (I believe) specifically was one of few governments to officially recognize the recent Soviet occupation of Ossetia.

He did win the recent referendum allowing an extension of power. He also controlled all the state media and explicitly threatened he would be watching which government employees (of which there are millions) did not vote for him. You can decide for yourself if this is fair.

Chavez has certainly been accused of supporting FARC, and I would leave it to others to expand on these claims.

I do think Chavez has legitimately improved access to food and health care for millions of impoverished people. There is a question of how this can be continued if the price of oil remains low. You don't win international friends by expropriating banks and businesses, and you don't develop economically by hiring friends instead of experts to run complex industries.

It is probable that Chavez's badness has been exaggerated, and probable Uribe could do much more to improve the plight of the uneducated in Colombia.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Man Tequila says on Mar 3, 2009, 22:18:

Here is what The Economist says about Chavez.

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1306...

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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romy says on Mar 4, 2009, 00:03:

perhaps people's opinions are a reflection of the media they consume...
take a look at

Colombia and Venezuela: Testing the Propaganda Model
by Kevin Young
Dec 19 2008
http://www.mediaaccuracy.org/node/65

FAIR Study: Human Rights Coverage Serving Washington’s Needs
FAIR finds editors downplaying Colombia’s abuses, amplifying Venezuela’s
By Steve Rendall and Daniel Ward and Tess Hall
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3699

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mundoflex says on Mar 4, 2009, 04:29:

Maninred yeah thats true too,but his sympaty for the farc its nothing new,during his time in jail ,farc as supported hugo with money,there cant be any doubt about.He thinks he can be the next S.Bolivar of south america under a red regime.You must be from the a nativ english spoken country?So ,thanks god,you have no experience with red politics(komunists?)
So by the way ,Thats what i thought on the beginning,Meninred is chavista¡

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turnmeon says on Mar 4, 2009, 18:31:

"mundoflex says on Mar 3, 2009, 12:19: flag

turnmeon your IQ=Frenchfrie"

did you check the links i posted on my other comment? if you dont know the history of this movements as well as i do, then do not make an statement like that, many socialist i speak with on my daily life have come to accept the true, Hitler was a socialist, which mean he was a leftist, and what chavez have been doing is the same as hitler did on Germany.

I recomend you to do a investigation before saying that my IQ is the same a s a french frie, you should get yourself with some actual facts before trying to denying the true.

here are the links again, im not posting all that info here because its too much to read, i prefer whoever want to read it to go ahead and do it.

http://ray-dox.blogspot.com/2006/08/this-article-is-published-on-inter....

http://ray-dox.blogspot.com/2007/05/semitism-and-antisemitism.html

link in spanish
http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/963810/El-Fascismo-y-el-Nazismo-como....

part two link in spanish
http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/969464/El-Fascismo-y-el-Nazismo-como....

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cfG21 says on Mar 4, 2009, 19:53:

Let me ask my venezuelan anti-chazvista friends and i will get back to you

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romy says on Mar 4, 2009, 22:27:

can frenchfries use blogs as references?

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manINred says on Mar 4, 2009, 23:08:

Very interesting insight. Romy, thanks for those links.

'where you stand depends on where you sit'
agree entirely, and very relevant. I think that's why there's such a massive divide. And it's precisely the reason many Colombians tend to loathe mr. chavez and vice versa ;)

mundoflex: jaja, it occurred to me that my name (which has nothing to do with socialism) might paint me in a socialist light. The 'red' is actually of Manchester United, a football team from england. I am not a socialist at all. In fact, I tend to believe that politics is contextual, and would never indefinitely register to a particular political belief set. Colombia and Bolivia, for example, need different leaders with different ideologies for different reasons.

turnmeon, one of your links is broken, and another is really long. I'll be honest, i don't see how Hitler being a 'socialist' has anything to do with Chavez, since the links between the two are tenuous at best. For example, Clinton Dempsey of Fulham is a professional footballer, a midfielder in fact, but that doesn't mean to say he has anything to do with Riquelme, even though they have the chosen the same profession, and play the same position.

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fbx258 says on Mar 6, 2009, 19:01:

Chavez maybe supporting terror, but Uribe is supported by the biggest terrorist of them all USA

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