Chavez calls ethanol production 'crime'

sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 06:41:

That's rich!

Sending 350 tons of food, when there is little on the store shelves in Venezuela. That should make him popular with his own people.

Wonder where he will get the food. Perhaps his buddies in Iraq or Iran (whichever he is flirting with) will send it? Surely they have plenty.

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Medellin Traveler says on Apr 27, 2008, 06:55:

He does have a point.

Ethonal Betrays It's Promises...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-ethanol-politics_thinka...

www.robertbryce.com

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:05:

I agree. Not only the impact and costs of the Worldwide food supply, but also the fact that the energy output of ethanol is exceeded by the energy expended in the production..

But my point is why is a country who can't feed their own people bragging about sending food to Haiti?

Maybe they would better off if he sent them some of that 15 cent gasoline?

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Medellin Traveler says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:07:

They need to reverse this ASAP!

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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slguy says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:12:

much as it pains me to say it, el payaso is correct for once. dumping all that low-yield corn into new ethanol plants in the farm belt is simply stupid - except for the Cargills of the world.

we wanna be serious about the benefits of ethanol? drop the $.54/gal duty on imported ethanol. the brasilians, who know a thing or two about ethanol from sugar cane, will sell us all we want, at less than cost of production here using corn.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Medellin Traveler says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:15:

The US in a few years?

It's very interesting times we are living in today, never before have so many things seemed so dire in my lifetime.

It's incredible how hunger is topping Iraq war news reports. I'm getting hungry just talkin' about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24334375

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:17:

Sure SL, with less impact on the food supply/costs. But then Cargill & Co. (and the invested legislators) would miss out on the profits.

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:18:

RE: Chavez calls ethanol production 'crime'
I hope the President of Argentina and Brazil do not know about this latest accusation because Argentina and Brazil use ethanol.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:22:

But he is only talking about corn, and the U.S.;o), of course, not his wanna-be buddies to the south.

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slguy says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:25:

"I hope the President of Argentina and Brazil do not know about this latest accusation because Argentina and Brazil use ethanol."


while one can never be certain w/ el payaso, my guess is he was referring to corn-based ethanol, not cana-based. cana is the more efficient material, and used in both brasil and argentina.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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OneHappyBoy says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:31:

ok... on one hand he is always threatening to turn off the oil spigot to the US, (where the majority of his oil exports go), and on the other hand, he bitches because the US is looking for ways to be energy independent? Hmmm..... Maybe, instead of bitching, Chavez should go out and plant a row of corn for Haiti instead of building his 21st century socialist county? Fuck Chavez- He's a crazy man!!!

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:33:

He threatens, but there are very few places he can go with his heavy, dirty, crude. If he stops shipping to the U.S., Venezuela will quickly grind to a halt.

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:37:

A barrel of oil is 42 gallons.
The amount of gasoline that can be distilled from crude depends on where the
crude is obtained. Venezuelan crude yields little gasoline (about 5%),
whereas Texas or Arabian crude yields about 30% gasoline. This is called
"straight run" gasoline.
However, the distilled components of the crude oil can be further processed
into gasoline by various other methods (catalytic and thermal cracking,
hydrocracking, catalytic reforming, alkylation, and polymerization) to
yield even more gasoline.

Bob Erck

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99288.htm

http://www.thecornerofficeblog.com/2008/02/15/why-isnt-venezuela-vs-ex...

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 27, 2008, 07:45:

Chavez used (and mis-used) the word "crime" because his hero Fidel wrote a newspaper editorial a few months back with the same theme. And Fidel was probably inspired by the moron at the U.N. who used it way back in October. Words matter and people with a soapbox should be careful -- pretty soon the most trivial thing is going to be a "crime against humanity" just like killing three people is now a "genocide."

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Ekdog says on Apr 27, 2008, 08:16:

Say what you will about Chávez, but he's right on this issue. Making corn into fuel makes no sense at all.

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Ekdog says on Apr 27, 2008, 08:26:

at Monpirri: I don't know what kind of ethanol Argentina is producing, but Brazil makes its fuel from sugarcane, which is much more efficient than making it from corn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil


Comparison with the United States

Brazil's sugar cane-based industry is far more efficient than the U.S. corn-based industry. Brazilian distillers are able to produce ethanol for 22 cents per liter, compared with the 30 cents per liter for corn-based ethanol.[7] Sugarcane cultivation requires a tropical or subtropical climate, with a minimum of 600 mm (24 in) of annual rainfall. Sugarcane is one of the most efficient photosynthesizers in the plant kingdom, able to convert up to 2% of incident solar energy into biomass. Ethanol is produced by yeast fermentation of the sugar extracted from sugar cane.

U.S. corn-derived ethanol costs 30% more because the corn starch must first be converted to sugar before being distilled into alcohol. Unfortunately, despite this cost differential in production, in contrast to Japan and Sweden, the U.S. does not import Brazilian ethanol because of strict U.S. trade barriers (tariffs) corresponding to a levy of a 54-cent per gallon – a levy designed to offset the 51-cent per gallon blender's federal tax credit that is applied to ethanol no matter its country of origin.[8] These are promoted by the powerful American sugar lobby, which does not want a competitor to high-fructose corn syrup, and domestic sugar interests.[citation needed] The United States and Brazil lead the industrial world in global ethanol production. On March 9, 2007 Ethanol diplomacy was the focus of President Bush's Latin American tour, in which he and Brazil's president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, agreed to share technology. The Brazilian sugar cane trade agreements permit various Central American (Colombia, Costa Rica, and Panama), Caribbean, and various Andean Countries tarrif-free trade thanks to concessionary trade agreements.

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Tomacoma says on Apr 27, 2008, 10:21:

...the way I understand it is that the type of corn most often produced in the US is corn high in complex sugars grown solely to produce high fructose corn syrup that goes into just about everything most Americans gorge themselves on. this type of corn is inedible and unpalatable and of no use as grain for basic sustinance. so, the idea that the US has recently changed it production...ie. Chavez's argument ...is a fallacy.

I'am livin' easy, eatin' poke chops greasy!

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peteyw says on Apr 27, 2008, 10:22:

Sugar should go towards energy-producing products and corn should be used as food or as food for food (feeding steers for example).

Sugar is harmful to the body, but good for fuel for your car.
Farmers can easily switch to growing a variety of corn that is best as a grain.

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Tomacoma says on Apr 27, 2008, 10:38:

I agree it's bad for the body, but it is also short sighted and not sustainable as a solution to fuel needs. first, it puts pressure on food producing capacitys. Second, it promotes the destruction of remaining forested areas of the world to meet growing demand which has it's own set of problems . we can't prostitute the remaining areas that are capable (climate, rainfall,etc.) of producing the biomass needed for fuel.

I'am livin' easy, eatin' poke chops greasy!

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Tomacoma says on Apr 27, 2008, 10:42:

there are new techniques being developed to extract fuel from biomass that is already considered waste or byproducts like wood chips or wheat husks but were not quite there yet.

I'am livin' easy, eatin' poke chops greasy!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 27, 2008, 11:04:

Tomacoma, U.S. No. 2 yellow dent corn - all 12 billion bushels per year of it - goes into animal feed, corn syrup products and ethanol, there's no type X grown only for animals, type Y for corn syrup and type Z for ethanol.

In the US, aside from sweet corn (the whole kernels on your dinner plate or on the cob at a picnic), there are some yellow and white (and even blue) "food grade" types that go through a "dry" milling process and become tortillas, Doritos, corn flour and the like, but the production pales when compared to No. 2 Yellow. When the media refers to high corn prices, they're referring to No. 2, the price of which is established on the Chicago Board of Trade.

http://www.cbot.com/cbot/pub/cont_detail/1,3206,1213+14389,00.html

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Tomacoma says on Apr 27, 2008, 11:43:

Tinto, would it be safe to assume subsidies are in place only for the No. 2 yellow dent corn?

I'am livin' easy, eatin' poke chops greasy!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 27, 2008, 12:32:

Tomacoma, I believe that is a correct statement. The food grade corn (for the dry milling process) trades at quite a premium to the "pig feed" corn and is often grown under contract for companies like Frito Lay. As a taxpayer, the existing subsidies for No. 2 corn in a high price environment are bad enough, I'd hate to think they extend even further.

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 12:44:

Ekdog, " at Monpirri: I don't know what kind of ethanol Argentina is producing, but Brazil makes its fuel from sugarcane, which is much more efficient than making it from corn: "

I visited Argentina couple years ago and the taxi that we hired have a dual fuel system. The driver was running the auto with ethenol and he had the option to use gasoline fuel just by pressing a button next to the driver's seat. Here I share with you and compliment your comment with the following links:

Brazil and Argentina Food and Fuel - 2/16/08
http://www.beyondfossilfuel.com/ethanol/brazil_argentina_0201608.html

Argentina, Brazil cooperate on biodiesel, ethanol production.(International Report)
Argentina and Brazil recently agreed to work together on the development of biofuels. Argentine Planning Minister Julio De Vido and Brazil's Development and Industry Minister Luiz Furlan reached the agreement in Buenos Aires, a spokeswoman for De Vido's ministry said.
Brazil, the world's biggest producer of ethanol from sugarcane,...
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-21466969_ITM

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 12:57:

"Patzek's ethanol critique began during a freshman seminar he taught in which he and his students calculated the energy balance of the biofuel. Taking into account the energy required to grow the corn and convert it into ethanol, they determined that burning the biofuel as a gasoline additive actually results in a net energy loss of 65 percent. Later, Patzek says he realized the loss is much more than that even."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329132436.htm

I have not seen figures for sugar-cane ethanol. The corn ethanol has less cumbustive power than gasoline, also.

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Medellin Traveler says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:20:

I love how much you guys know about corn :O)

Keep up the good work............

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:31:

Sloopskipper - I think everyone agrees that ethanol produces less BTUs than gasoline, and thus less miles per gallon, but there's a mini-industry out there producing competing claims of just how less efficient corn-based ethanol is. Twenty years ago I don't think anyone would argue that a gallon of corn-based ethanol in the US was a net energy user, but the industry was tiny then and it was supplied with a lot of junk corn (wet, moldy, infested corn unfit for animals) that otherwise would have been landfilled or composted. Things are different now - there is more infrastructure (but not anywhere near the petroleum infrastructure) and the plants are more efficient due to economies of scale, better production processes and better science/digesting enzymes. Some studies today show corn-based ethanol a net provider of energy, but not by much and you have to include the animal feed value of the by-products. Advocates will say with more rail cars and pipelines and better enzymes in the future, corn ethanol will be strongly in the "positive" category. Maybe, but I haven't seen any research that says the industry can stand on its own anytime soon absent the subsidies. Ah well, some analysts say we ought to include $10 to $50 billion a year that we spend keeping Middle East sea lanes open - which benefits Asia, India and Europe more than it does the US - when doing comparisons of "fully costed" liquid energy. So the debate goes on...

On a related note, Brazil provided large subsidies to their sugar-based ethanol industry for nearly three decades. Only recently has the industry really been able to stand on its own and record high petroleum prices get no small share of the credit.

From what I understand about the chemical differences between corn and sugar cane, I think sugar will always come out on top. But with two senators in every US state, and just about every state capable of producing some type of corn, sugar, switchgrass, tree, plant or food waste, I think the US will be subsidizing **some** type of ethanol for years to come.

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Rikito says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:46:

thanks to all of you for the education...it helps the perspective

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:51:

Tinto, that article is somewhat dated. It is tough to get your arms around all the issues and find a single reliable, unbiased, source.

And on the horizon, possibilites of celulose, etc, etc.

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:54:

And in case you guys do not know, in Colombia or at least in Barranquilla, again I was there in December/January. I had a taxi driver who gave me the scariest moment of my life. The driver claimed that he was running out of gas so he told me we needed first to stop by the closest fuel station. We traveled several miles and we passed several service stations! And he did not stop at any of them; instead he told me that he knew a good station where he usually buys the fuel and that he was a good customer of that service station. About two blocks away from the final destination, I said to myself I’m OUT here, so I politely told the driver drop me off at the nearest corner, the taxi driver who was always calm and friendly told me that we were less than a block away.

And finally thanks God we arrived at The Fuel Station so we got off and they greeted each other and they treated him as good old customer. A woman in uniform asked me to wait on the side by the chair and she proceeded to open the hood, did some test and began to hook up the hose to inject the gas or petrol into the engine.
So in case you guys do not know, in Colombia or at least in Barranquilla they run their autos with dual fuel system, gas and gasoline.
During the journey, the taxi driver has showed me two buttons below the panel by the driver’s seat. The buttons are used to change from one fuel to another.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:55:

Rover Group Promotional Video 1996

"This is a nice promotional video from the Rover Group used in an Auto Show in Colombia.
There's a reason for that. Land Rovers sold better than the Rover cars in Colombia. Not many Rovers were sold because they were expesnive compared with same category cars and they imported cars with 1 type of engine, like the 200 was sold only with the 1400 petrol engine, and at the time you could buy a locally made Mazda 626 with the same trim and a 2.0 engine for the same money. Same with the other products."

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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Papi de Alejo says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:57:

In January, I also took a taxi from Barranquilla to Santa Marta and had to stop on the way for fuel. I was not alone, so it didn't seem extremely dangerous to exit the car to have the fuel injected. I guess it's better to be outside of the car if something untowards happened that to be inside trying to flee.

PdA

PdA

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:59:

A brother-in-law was using that also, in a Ford Escort (or Taunus), in Holland, maybe 20 years ago. But I think he had to switch a valve in the trunk (which was mostly filled with the gas cylinder).

I think it burns almost totally clean, but poorer performance on gas (then).

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 14:02:

Yeap, they are very cautious about how dangerous it can be. The had a safety sign Do Not Smoke and yes we were outside waiting. The taxi driver was talking to his friends and I was watching with great interest the "New" of course new to me how to 'pump' propane gas into the engine.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 14:32:

And in case you guys do not know, well I do not know if it is true or not, so I leave this one up to your expertise.
"Do You Want To Know RIGHT NOW How You Can Drive Around Using WATER as FUEL and Laugh At Rising Gas Costs, While Reducing Emissions and Preventing Global Warming?"

http://www.overunity.com/hho.htm

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 15:07:

That guy appeared on panamaforum a few weeks ago and wants to set up shop in Panamá to peddle that "snake-oil" (perhaps to avoid U.S. authorities).

We did that in the chemistry lab in high school, many years ago. I think it maybe took an hour to produce enough H to make a short duration flame and a little poof.

However hydrolysis does produce hydrogen and oxygen, but you would need something a little bigger than that silly mason jar.

see: http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/ener...

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 15:08:

Duplicate

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 15:18:

It seems that hydrogen is a perfectly clean (water is the only thing left), and viable fuel, and I imagine fuel cells are safe.

But in a gas state, it made a big boom at Lakehurst in 1937:


http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hindenburg1.html

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 27, 2008, 17:18:

Actually, Hidrogen combustion (fuel cells) produces hot water (steam) which is a greenhouse gas ! Not so good.
I had a profesor who was working on Nitrogen cars. There is no combustion, just expansion and the byproduct ... air !

http://www.mtsc.unt.edu/CooLN2Car.html

The problem is so far materials used to store the gas (methane, propane, Nitrogen, whatever) are too heavy. We need a material that gives a good strenght/weight ratio.

Democratic party or Republican party is fine......as long as theres a party!!!!!!!

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sloopskipper says on Apr 27, 2008, 17:59:

Steam is not a greenhouse gas, but only water vapor.

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 18:11:

By the way, water can be molecularly altered to produce a better ratio. Do we have a scientist or physics on the house?

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 27, 2008, 19:05:

Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 19:38:

I duno. I just know soon that I will be selling water.
Please do not ask me for my formula. :>)

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 27, 2008, 19:57:

Tomacoma says on Apr 27, 2008, 20:08:

Hah!....that's classic...monpirri..

I'am livin' easy, eatin' poke chops greasy!

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Monpirri says on Apr 27, 2008, 20:12:

Jorgediaz and Tomacoma if you are guys are interested I can put you down on my customer list.
No joke, I am serious!

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 27, 2008, 20:20:

Tomacoma says on Apr 27, 2008, 20:33:

I gotta see this...fire away!

I'am livin' easy, eatin' poke chops greasy!

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Robert Jorge says on Apr 27, 2008, 20:46:

Ethanol gleaned from distilling corn is one of the most inefficient ways of making fuel. Chavez is spot on. Ethanol is STUPID. It actually takes more than a gallon of petroleum to produce a gallon of ethanol.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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Robert Jorge says on Apr 27, 2008, 20:47:

The ethanol made from corn in Kentucky and Tennessee is pretty tasty though. Maker's or Jack anyone?

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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sloopskipper says on Apr 28, 2008, 02:56:

jorgegdiaz says on Sunday April 27th, 2008 17:18:

"Actually, Hidrogen combustion (fuel cells) produces hot water (steam) which is a greenhouse gas ! Not so good.
I had a profesor who was working on Nitrogen cars. There is no combustion, just expansion and the byproduct ... air !"

A condensor to transform the water vapor to its liquid state is not a complicated device. There is already one installed in almost all modern cars, not that IT could be used for this.

They use them in those stills in Kentucky & Tennessee too.

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Albatross says on Apr 28, 2008, 04:28:

Here's an idea: people could stop spewing out children and walk more.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 04:32:

I think that the western world, at least, has the children part nailed.

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Albatross says on Apr 28, 2008, 04:40:

Hydrogen is, in theory, the perfect fuel... Hydrogen combusted with Oxygen yields energy and water (H2O).

However, air is not pure Oxygen (only about 21%), but contains Nitrogen as well as other gasses and chemicals.
So in practice, Hydrogen combustion in air produces pollutants such as Nitrides of Oxygen (NOx) as well as trace amounts of Carbon Monoxide/Dioxide (CO, CO2), Sulfides of Oxygen... ect.

But even so, Hydrogen is still, by far, an environmentally superior fuel to Hydrocarbon or Alcohol fuels.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Albatross says on Apr 28, 2008, 04:52:

P.S. Fuel Cells do not combust Hydrogen, but combine Hydrogen and Oxygen to produce electricity.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 28, 2008, 05:41:

morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 05:47:

If you give food to poor people, it just creates a bigger problem later on.

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 07:44:

Well why not plant and harvest rape seed oil? Biodiesel is the way to go!

t

"cook some rice!"

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 07:57:

They better think of something quick. When the oil reserves run out, the whole world is going to starve. specially in the cities. There will be no way to produce so much food. People will have to resort to cannibalism.

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 08:02:

There is no shortage of oil. There are enough known reserves to last two hundred years at current consumption rates.

t

"cook some rice!"

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 08:04:

200 years? Thats the first time I heard that. I keep hearing about 30 years.

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 08:06:

It all a part of a political agenda.

t

"cook some rice!"

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:11:

Monpirri says on Jun 17, 2008, 10:15:

Honda rolls out new zero-emission car
TOMOKO A. HOSAKA
The Associated Press
June 16, 2008 at 7:15 AM EDT

TAKAMEZAWA, Japan — Honda's new zero-emission, hydrogen fuel cell car rolled off a Japanese production line Monday and is headed to southern California, where Hollywood is already abuzz over the latest splash in green motoring.
The FCX Clarity, which runs on hydrogen and electricity, emits only water and none of the gases believed to induce global warming. It is also two times more energy efficient than a gas-electric hybrid and three times that of a standard gasoline-powered car, the company says.
Honda expects to lease out a “few dozen" units this year and about 200 units within a year. In California, a three-year lease will run $600 (U.S.) a month, which includes maintenance and collision coverage.
Among the first customers are actress Jamie Lee Curtis and filmmaker husband Christopher Guest, actress Laura Harris, film producer Ron Yerxa, as well as businessmen Jon Spallino and Jim Salomon.
“It's so smooth," said Ms. Harris, who played villainness Marie Warner on the hit TV show “24." “It's like a future machine, but it's not."
Ms. Harris, Mr. Spallino and Mr. Yerxa were flown to the ceremony, courtesy of Honda. Mr. Yerxa says he's excited to show off the car and believes there's “a lot of interest."
The biggest obstacles standing in the way of wider adoption of fuel cell vehicles are cost and the dearth of hydrogen fuel stations. For the Clarity's release in California, Honda said it received 50,000 applications through its Web site but considered only buyers living near hydrogen fuel stations in Torrance, Santa Monica and Irvine.
“This is indeed a historic day for both Honda and American Honda — a new chapter in our nearly fifty-year history in America," said John Mendel, a senior vice president at America Honda Motor Co. at a morning ceremony here. “It's an especially significant day for American Honda as we plant firm footsteps toward the mainstreaming of fuel cell cars."
Initially, however, the Clarity will go only to a chosen few starting July and then launch in Japan this fall.
Although Honda Motor Co. was the first Japanese auto maker to launch a gas-electric hybrid vehicle in the U.S. in 1999, it has been outpaced by the dominance of Toyota's popular Prius.
Toyota announced in May that it has sold more than 1 million Prius hybrids, while both the Honda Insight and the hybrid Accord have been discontinued due to poor sales.
The FCX Clarity is part of Honda's plan to keep pace with rivals in green technology. It also plans to launch a gas-electric hybrid-only model, as well as hybrid versions of the Civic, the sporty CR-Z and Fit subcompact.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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Monpirri says on Jun 17, 2008, 10:19:

Here is one solution to the current sky hight gasoline prices... "Zero emissions, great mileage.
Honda workers place a hydrogen tank on the new FCX Clarity during Monday' press preview. Initially the car will go to just a chosen few - including Hollywood celebreties - starting in JULY, and then launch in Japan this fall" and later in Colombia. :>) just kidding about in colombia

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jun 17, 2008, 10:44:

Here there are specifications:
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/specifications.aspx
Not astonishing performance...

Democratic party or Republican party is fine......as long as theres a party!!!!!!!

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jorgegdiaz (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jun 17, 2008, 10:49:

Monpi, Hydrogen cars are a sofism. The by product of hidrogen cells is steam which is a greenhouse gas (stores heat)

There are alternatives to REAL zero emissions cars. Like Nitrogen cars (air is 78% N2)

http://www.mtsc.unt.edu/CooLN2Car.html
http://www.aa.washington.edu/AERP/CRYOCAR/

Of course these prototypes to show that the idea is feasible. The Ukranian goverment is very interested in building a mass-production car based on this technology.

Of course, fuel-cell cars are a step forward in substituing fossil fuels.

Democratic party or Republican party is fine......as long as theres a party!!!!!!!

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Monpirri says on Jun 17, 2008, 11:41:

Jorgegdiaz, I hear you.
All I hope that the oil producer countries start thinking in lowering the cost of fuel soon...or otherwise we are going to have to look for a better and cheaper alternatives and there are plenty of resources or choices available from Mother Nature.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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lpdiver says on Jun 17, 2008, 14:24:

Des boots are made for walking...

t

"cook some rice!"

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