Chavez and Recession in Bolivia

CatGirl says on May 9, 2008, 08:25:

Things that make you go hmmmm... Can anyone shed some light on the subject? What is it exactly is US doing that is leading Hugo to these beliefs? All is vague as always...is this another case of mistaken paranoid delusions, actions of a self impose drama junkie? Or is this simply the actions of something yet to unfold?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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romy says on May 9, 2008, 08:31:

it seems to be that the argument is that the US is helping this independence movement through financial aid. As of right now it's still a he says/she says situation.

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romy says on May 9, 2008, 08:47:

Chavez insists on increasing his influence in South America, which seems to be the trend. He's trying to appeal to Colombians with his latest announcement.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aa5RZlHx01sA&refer...
Chavez Invites Colombia to Join Venezuelan Oil Production
By Jose Orozco

May 9 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez invited neighboring Colombia to participate in production from the oil-rich Orinoco Belt, as the two South American nations seek to bolster their crude output.

Colombia has failed to discover new oil fields and existing reserves are in decline, Chavez said yesterday at a meeting of Latin American energy ministers in Caracas, citing an earlier conversation with Colombian President Alvaro Uribe.

``I propose something -- that Colombia come to the Orinoco Belt,'' Chavez said.

The Orinoco Belt, where Venezuela is quantifying and certifying one of the world's biggest oil deposits, contains heavy oil laden with sulfur, requiring upgrading before it can be processed in most refineries. The two neighbors inaugurated a pipeline in October that carries gas from Colombia to Venezuela.

Julio Cesar Vera, director of hydrocarbons at Colombia's Ministry of Mines and Energy, said at the meeting that his country may seek Asian investment of as much as $500 million for an oil pipeline from the Orinoco Belt to the Pacific Ocean.

``They can slow down their own production a little to protect reserves,'' Chavez said in comments broadcast on state television. ``And they can increase production here. We can share the production and all the work.'' Rafael Ramirez, Venezuela Energy and Oil Minister, said at yesterday's opening ceremony for the meeting that Venezuela added 30 billion barrels of crude oil in the Orinoco Belt to its overall proven reserves in April, bringing the national total to 130 billion barrels. The new certification places Venezuela behind only Saudi Arabia and Iran among the world's oil producers with the highest reserves.

Venezuelan oil production has declined by a third to 2.32 million barrels a day since peaking a decade ago, according to Bloomberg estimates. State oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA says output is 3.3 million barrels a day.

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Gator says on May 9, 2008, 08:55:

As Bugs Bunny says, "What a marron."

Why? It's SOP when everything you are trying to do turns to s _ _ t blame the USA










































































�?s Bugs Bunny says, "What a marron."

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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CatGirl says on May 9, 2008, 08:59:

Got it Romy, thanks. As always, I have trouble understanding Hugo's rants - he is typically vague and does not substantiate many of his accusations. So it's about $$ and the perception of where is it going and who it is coming from etc...

Thanks for the clarification ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Lcacique says on May 9, 2008, 10:49:

The US has a very long history, documented by its own files, of supporting opposition governments and/or militaries, in left-wing Latin American countries. Are they doing it now, my money is on YES (to some degree or another). Do I have the receipts to prove it, NO. With respect to Bolivia's economy...The US-led Banzer years were great for Bolivia (sarcasm).

While I do not agree politically with Chavez (I do not know enough about Morales), he is nowhere near as bad as many of the governments that the US supported wholeheartedly in the region.

gator: Be careful with the Bugs Bunny quote, "What a maroon." While Bugs was making fun of stupid adversaries, his comment reflects that he is not all that bright either given that he cannot pronounce moron.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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cali373 says on May 9, 2008, 10:53:

CatGirl. What is the news source of this article??? And what doe sit have to do with recession?

Smile if you are a thinker!

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jonas says on May 9, 2008, 11:14:

I guess someone mixed up recession with secession. Shows what´s on people´s minds these days...

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

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slguy says on May 9, 2008, 11:57:

is there any problem, anywhere on the globe, that's NOT a sinister US plot? sheesh, you one-note johnnies get tiresome.

has it not occurred to you guys that maybe the people of santa cruz are smart enough to know when they are getting hosed by the central/morales government, w/out the big bad US needing to point it out to them???

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Lcacique says on May 9, 2008, 12:55:

slguy: I would never blame the US for all of Latin America's problems; however, it would be naive to suggest that the US has not been heavily involved there. Unfortunately, our influence in Latin America has often been negative (not always). This does not excuse the involvement of willing participants there, nor does it pardon the actions of current and/or previous leftist governments.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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CatGirl says on May 9, 2008, 13:57:

Cali: "CatGirl. What is the news source of this article??? And what doe sit have to do with recession?"

OMG!!! Thanks for noticing my BIG typo error. The word Recession should be replaced by "SECESSION". jaja.

The problem is, the source I got it from does not allow reposting (copyright 2008) -- So I summarized etc This came from Associated Press -----I did a bad job of summarizing and forgot to add the source, oops!
now the edit button is gone...guess It stays a wacky typo?

Again Cali, thanks for noticing....and thanks for clarifying jonas

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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slguy says on May 9, 2008, 14:17:

lc - everything you say is true. i just despise folks who prefer parroting bozos like chavez, w/out a scintilla of evidence....it frankly demeans the cruzeros who rightfully are outraged at taxation well beyond the benefits they receive, in the name of "equality for the indigenous people".

why must the folks who produce most of bolivia's wealth need the influence of the US to be outraged??? they're smart enough to generate this wealth....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Wastelandlive says on May 9, 2008, 15:01:

This isn't all that complicated.

Lots of regions in the world tire of carrying the tax burden of their respective nation, and would be just as happy to cut ties and move on. Milan would love to get rid of Naples, for example. Lots of West Germans were never all that excited about reuniting with - and rebuilding - East Germany. Every region of Spain seems to want to be independent... it makes you wonder how Spain holds together.

What is unique about Santa Cruz is that their grievance is particularly strong. They are not only supporting most of Bolivia (an economic basket case) off their wealth, but Morale's policies are reducing their productivity. He's killing the golden goose, as it were, because while he is a man with a strong sense of social justice, he has no real knowledge of economics.

So Santa Cruz wants to secede. It's not very realistic, and the proponents of independence probably know this, but it is their best instrument for advocating the policies that they prefer.

Wasteland

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lampltr says on May 9, 2008, 16:13:

Could be many factors involved while at the same time legitimate...What happened in Chile, then Venezuela (Chevez), what is China's major destined goal. Seems like everyones got a point to make...I only desire to get lost in rural Colombia!

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romy says on May 9, 2008, 16:13:

slguy- who do you think owned the land before these white guys showed up? yeah the Indians... and yes this has everything to do with race/ethnicity look at the demographics of Santa Cruz compared with the rest of the country.
Also, who has blamed the US for ALL the problems around the globe (other than Chavez maybe)? that person is wrong.

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billyb says on May 9, 2008, 16:46:

Were in the referendum did it say anything about Santa Cruz seceding? It refers to a limited autonomy within a federal system.

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slguy says on May 9, 2008, 21:28:

exactly, billy. cruzeros only are seeking more autonomy, along the lines of our states - NOT indepedence or a separate country.

romy? "slguy- who do you think owned the land before these white guys showed up? yeah the Indians"..sorry, but that's kindofa stupid statement. yea, they were there, and what did they accomplish with it? pretty much exactly what they're accomplishing w/ the rest of bolivia now - zip.

if they are so capable of producing ANTHING, why is santa cruz the cash register of the country?

why does morales wamt to bleed the cruzeros dry? because the indigenous people produce pretty textiles and coca, and very little else - and they've had centuries to accomplish all this.

in comparison, santa cruz only began their economic story about 50 years ago, from dirt roads. today it's a city of 1,500,000 people - and both the breadbasket AND economic powerhouse of the country.

true enough, past governments didn't spread enough of the income from bolivia's gas/oil reserves to the indigenous people....but that was a function of the same democratic process the got that economically dimwitted morales elected. he's already nationalized the gas industy - let him use those proceeds to help his fellow indigenous people, NOT ruin the ecoomy of the country's primary economic engine, too..

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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romy says on May 10, 2008, 02:29:

"because the indigenous people produce pretty textiles and coca, and very little else - and they've had centuries to accomplish all this"
Even if that's true (which I don't believe it is), it's their way of life and they are free to do as they wish, it's not your land that was taken away.

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slguy says on May 10, 2008, 05:43:

i'm not certain what your definition of "taken away" is, romy, but i'll let that rest for now. ;)

it's your position that it's reasonable to cripple the only powerful economic engine the country has, in order to rectify land issues that are nebulous, with regard to santa cruz state? who wins, then? i'm not certain exactly how populated SC state was by indigenous folks, pre-'50's, anyway, but i'm comfortable guessing that the highlands are their traditional population centers..

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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romy says on May 10, 2008, 06:05:

the people win... people are more important than money.

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Wastelandlive says on May 10, 2008, 13:34:

Pithy. Pertinent?

Wasteland

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slguy says on May 10, 2008, 13:48:

i'm guessing the people of zimbabwe would laugh at your naiivete, romy -- if they weren't so busy struggling to survive.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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romy says on May 10, 2008, 13:59:

what? Zimbabwe?

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CatGirl says on May 10, 2008, 14:25:

a slight derailment. It's all about Darwin now. Hey! What makes things move in the world now? People or $$? Supply or Demand?? If enough people have a demand and there is someone out there that can make a buck on the demand - Walla! it happens.

So we are a greener society now - but only cause someone can make a buck off it
Mass World hunger still exists....no one has figured to make a buck off that campaign as we drive around in our electric frickin cars ;))

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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romy says on May 10, 2008, 14:47:

South America would stand against any independence movement in Santa Cruz. Here's Brazil's piece.

http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/9304/1/
Brazil Won't Accept Separatism in Bolivia, Minister Warns
Written by Newsroom
Saturday, 10 May 2008

Celso Amorim, the Brazilian Foreign minister said that South America would never accept "separatism in Bolivia" and underlined that any autonomy must be negotiated with La Paz, according to Rio's daily O Globo.

Last Sunday Bolivia's richest province, Santa Cruz, held a referendum where an overwhelming majority voted for autonomy. Several other Bolivian provinces are on a similar track.

"I don't think we'll see separatism. Even because South America would never accept it," said Celso Amorim.

"Brazil is not against autonomy wishes as long as constitutional principles are respected and that is the will of the Bolivian people," added Amorim who insisted that the voted Santa Cruz autonomy statute must be in the framework of the current Bolivian constitution.

Amorim also defended a wide agreement in Bolivia.

"It's perfectly possible to reestablish a dialogue with the help from the (Catholic) Church, OAS (Organization of American States) and the group of country friends which support Bolivia." Brazil, Argentina and Colombia are the members of the group of country friends with Bolivia.

"What we must do is work together in a coordinated way, all of us in the same direction. We must find a way to reestablish dialogue and that is what we are determined to obtain. But with discretion, no impositions, we can't forget that the idea of the group of country friends was an initiative from the Bolivian government."

When asked if given the overwhelming results of the Santa Cruz referendum the situation had turned even more complicated, Amorim replied that "the referendum is over. It's useless to stop to think whether it makes it easier or more difficult. Bolivia is a country with which we must work for the national unity and this demands dialogue."

"I think events in Santa Cruz were far less dramatic than what was or has been imagined," he underscored.

In a similar tone through a video conference Benita Ferrer-Waldner, the European Union Foreign Affairs commissar said the EU was willing to facilitate and bring together the different sides in the dispute, the Bolivian government and the opposing regions.

"We're doing out best so that all attempts, be them from the Church, from OAS or the envoys from the group of country friends, effectively achieve a path that leads to promote dialogue and a successful dialogue at that," added Ferrero-Waldner.

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slguy says on May 10, 2008, 16:24:

yes, romy - zimbabwe. see how the people won there, with mugabe seizing land from productivve farmers to "redistibute" it.

"the people win... people are more important than money."

the people win, my ass.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on May 10, 2008, 18:43:

slguy, your commnet brought to mind something i read in this morninrg's sports section.

"-- Your dollar is doing just fine, thank you: A Zimbabwean soccer team which budgeted $300 billion Zimbabwean dollars for a trip to Tunisia is coming short, as the trip is actually going to come in at $10 trillion"

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