Catholicism in Colombia

slguy says on Oct 27, 2007, 11:16:

I'm FAR from the Church's biggest fan, but I would never deny the good work that gets accomplished by the church. It's the other stuff that gives me problems...

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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kalder says on Oct 27, 2007, 11:17:

Paedophiles?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Simon says on Oct 27, 2007, 11:25:

Catholicism in Colombia is cool!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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kalder says on Oct 27, 2007, 11:32:

That's the impression I get.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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dwmte7 says on Oct 27, 2007, 11:33:

being a catholic...i'm as offed by the sexual misconduct of clerics as anyone. even with the problems within the ranks. the good works far outweigh the bad.

it's a culture, wherein, priests who do not live their vows of celebacy, teach the future priests and the wheel goes round. falsehood/hypocracy breeds it's own.

were it not for the good works and generosity of our parish here, my youngest would not be in catholic school.

and as for those who have nothing better to do than criticise other's beliefs, etc. these, unfortunately are so weak within, that their words are like so much prattle...not worth the noise, nor the substance therein contained. pity

dwmte

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slguy says on Oct 27, 2007, 12:01:

I hope I made it clear- I am NOT criticizing beliefs. I AM critical of institutional behavior when it's clearly wrong. For me, the institution is often VERY different from those that believe in her.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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john_stark says on Oct 27, 2007, 12:27:

Catholicism is a crazy religion that I would never choose for myself or others. However if you're born into it and go to Catholic school as I did, all other religions seem like imposters. You get indoctrinated and even later when you think a lot of the dogma is stupid, you're stuck with it.

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six25 says on Oct 27, 2007, 12:28:

I think what some of us secular people are mostly offended by is the charade that comes with the whole church thing. But overall we understand that the intentions of the church are good, in Colombia or any other country.

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Man Tequila says on Oct 27, 2007, 12:50:

I am not religious myself. But I think those who slam religion often do so from the comfortable perspective of having ample food, shelter, the luxury of travel, and ignorance of the church's good works. Teenagers can afford to be iconoclastic if they are given what they need instead of earning it. Fashions sometimes vary between Colombia and Western Europe. Doctrinaire just about covers it.

This in no way means churches are above criticism or hypocrisy, do not sometimes do great harm, should in most cases be separated from government or do not play a role in arguments on individual liberty vs. community values, etc.

But those who do not think the church provides much comfort to individuals, and especially individuals in countries where life is often brutally difficult and unfair... or provides valuable social services... are seeing the world through a prism of rigid dogmatism not dissimilar to their allegations.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Plato says on Oct 27, 2007, 13:06:

MT,

Great thread. I have a lot to say about this, but not at the moment. True enough, there has been a lot of shady popes in the Church's history that I would never want to see in a dark alley, but the Church has done a lot of good as well. More about this later.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2007, 14:23:

When I read the Headline: "Catholicism in Colombia" Padre Garcia Herrero came to mind.

I remember he used to have a one minute slot on night time colombian television. This one minute slot was appropriately called "El Minuto de Dios". He would philosophize for a minute about a different topic everyday. I still remember the ever present wooden crucifix in the background.

He was beloved by many colombians. There were rumors him having leftist tendencies and being a guerrilla sympathizer.

I think during the Escobar era there were also rumors that Padrecito Garcia Herrero took some big donations from Escobar to build houses for the poor.

I really don't remember what happened with that... hmmm. Does anybody remember whatever happened with that scandal?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 27, 2007, 14:36:

Colombiche, I have to ask you.
All my life I've heard about the cathedral in Manizales that never got finished because the priest kept stealing the money ...did it ever really got finished?

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2007, 14:58:

There were two cathedrals in Manizales history.

The first (the old) was made out of wood. It was burnt to ashes during the big Manizales fire of 1926. After the fire, they built the new concrete gothic style cathedral. During the earth quake of 1962 one of the concrete towers and the big cross plummeted down. The tower that fell off was never rebuilt.

The cathedral itself looks finished to me although there are rumours that it went unfinished. The part that is really shabby is the tallest tower, there are some steps to climb all the way up to the top. They refer to it as "El corredor Polaco". Those steps were in such horrid shape that they actually rotted and people couldn't go up lest they fall through them or something. It's been a couple of decades and you still can't go up the damn steps because they are still rotten. I bet if you collected the donations people make in mass for one week, you could fix the goddamn steps.

Anyhow, they built a replica of the old wooden cathedral in Manizales' chipre neighborhood:

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Cerealkiller says on Oct 27, 2007, 14:59:

I have very personal views on Religion. And its probably the only thing that causes disruption at home. I think religion is retarded (not in a down syndrome kind of way, just completely out of touch with modernity) and unnecessary, while BF remains a faithful Anglican...
I do believe however, that religion has played a very important role in bringing people together. China and Poland being two examples, but in my opinion, the world is far too advanced to keep believing in this sort of stuff. If we want to bring people together we already have human rights, properly established nation states, political parties, clubs, organizations, clearly defined division of labour. I think we are ready to say buh bye to religion and embrace real knowledge and things that actually make sense in today's world.
Just my opinion.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2007, 14:59:

The new concrete cathedral:

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 27, 2007, 15:01:

Well, I am an atheist...... thank GOD.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Simon says on Oct 27, 2007, 15:03:

Ah, the things atheists say! Gotta thank them for the laugh though!!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 27, 2007, 15:19:

I've always considered myself as an agnostic...but I have a lot of respect for religions.

Thanks, Colombiche for the update on the Cathedral That Never Got Finished Because The Priest Kept Stealing The Money ;)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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msaucey says on Oct 27, 2007, 15:38:

The Catholic Church has done a lot of good through out the world... As well as a lot of bad.... Dating back to examples of the conquistadores throughout the Americas... I'm more of an agnostic then an atheist.... I actually don't believe in Religion... I believe there may be a god, or a group of gods.... My main problem with religion is that it causes more war and destruction then those lacking religion... The majority of wars have always been started by religious conflict, even today we continue to have wars based on what religion.... The interpretation of the bible has been polluted by years of translation and errased it's primary meaning....

But, back to the OP Catholism in Colombia and through a lot of others countries has always been a haven for those in need. They continue to help those that need it and with that they continue to hold the strength and power in people... What we fail to always see, is that it is the priest and nuns of these congergations and not the Roman Catholic Church... These are kind hearted people that have dedicated themselves to their god and to the people around them... Like in any situation, you will always have some bad seeds and therefore you have the bad priest that do horrible things.... But, that's a different OP..

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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jaramillo says on Oct 27, 2007, 20:17:

"I think religion is retarded (not in a down syndrome kind of way, just completely out of touch with modernity)"

That's a great truth and a great compliment.

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gringolondinense says on Oct 28, 2007, 06:29:

The Pope recently said in Austria that Europeans are selfish because they dont have enough children (..when refering to some countries which have decreasing birth rates). Its funny that a guy who prides himself on being celibate can even say this.

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jaramillo says on Oct 28, 2007, 06:38:

"My main problem with religion is that it causes more war and destruction then those lacking religion..."

Respectfully, I think that statement is untenable, saucey. For one, there is no control group since all peoples have had religion. Overall, though, I think that one can contend that Christian nations have been far less cruel than pagan ones. Talk about the number executed by the Spanish inquisition (meticulous records put these at 10,000, over several centuries, which BTW, I am NOT defending). The Romans and the Persians, more than once, crucified 5,000 in an afternoon.

Wars have typically been started by arrogant, ignorant, and greedy men and they might have used religion as a cover, but they almost never used a true inner religious faith as a drive. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Napoleon, Cesar; were these religious men? They knew no religion. Conflicts like the one in Ireland are socio-economic conflicts, not conflicts of religions, despite appearances. Ulster and the rest of Ireland have the same faith (I mean Anglicanism and Catholicism are basically the same faith).

There is much talk about the conquistadores and the cruelty to the indians. This is the work of men like Pizarro and Cabeza de Vaca, not religious men. Look at what the Dominicans did for the native Americans and what the Jesuits did and continue to do for the natives and for the poor in Latin America. Many have been martyred for the dispossessed (more than a few in recent memory).

I speak for Christianity, which I know, but it seems to me that true Hinduism and Buddhism also promote and defend peace.

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morphus says on Oct 29, 2007, 11:55:

I used to be Catholic. When I was 10 years I figure out that its all bullshit.

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jaramillo says on Oct 29, 2007, 12:42:

Nothing like an open mind. If you figured it out at 10, then you must be right.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 13:02:

I read practically the entire bible as a kid. I used to be terrified of the God of the apolcaplypse and the old testament, I though he was a mean bastard.

One day, at age 13 I was praying the nightly rosary with my mom. Suddenly it dawned on me that I was just repeating stuff I no longer believed in. I walked out of the room and that was the beginning of my agnostic career.

I just can't follow a fairy tale that was written by men and long bearded patriarchs who lived over 2000 years ago.

I believe the power of prayer lies in the power of faith and suggestion over the subconcious mind. It's self hypnosis, just look at the creed, people have to repeat "I believe in God the father and blah blah blah blah". No more, no less than the power of autosuggestion and repetion. If you repeat something with fervor and candor enough times chances are it will come true some way or another.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 29, 2007, 13:41:

I know people who have "The Secret" literally tattooed on their body, who believe wishing and repetition will make things happen.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 13:54:

Tatooed on their body? What secret? Tell me about it. I might go out and get my own secret tatoo.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 29, 2007, 14:05:

"The Secret" is the latest power of positive thinking doggerell. Their tattoo is literally the logo at this website, complete with fake wax seal.

http://www.thesecret.tv/

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 15:24:

Well, this page might seem like quackery/cult/fad but the underlying message is very real. Nothing secret about it. If you know how to control your thoughts, focus and channel your energy you can achieve anything you put your mind to. This is the "secret" that religions utilize to claim a godly connection when in reality they are simple tools such as suggestion (parables, scriptures), repetion (prayers/mantras), the law of belief (faith), focusing your energy on an object (idol worship, statues), visualization, meditation, contemplation etc etc etc. WE humans have so little faith in what lies inside us that we attribute apparent "miracles" to an external source.

Did you view the entire secret film mant?

Did you ever read "The Power of your Subconcious Mind" by Dr. Joseph Murphy? It's a pretty interesting read. He even talks about how some psychologists could trigger stigmata on a patient that was under hypnosis, I thought that was fascinating.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 29, 2007, 15:55:

Oh, I don't deny positive thinking is extremely powerful. I brought it up here because I agree with you that autosuggestion is important. But the "story" (e.g. Buddha and Copernicus and other famous people long since dead were handed the Secret by other equally famous people) and marketing of it is certainly doggerell. I would not call the message quackery, but Murphy did a far better job on a similar theme (although Power of Subconscious Mind is the only of the 30 or so Murphy books I read). The application of the message is sometimes quackery, I do draw the line at people who think wishing can cure their cancer or prevent anything bad from happening, since this type of delusion can sometimes be damaging.

Religion may be falling out of favour in Europe and Canada; I'm an agnostic myself. (And occasionally Deist or atheist). But spirituality is still very popular, and has co-opted religion using similar methods, as you say. Sometimes groups like Scientology use it to take advantage of the vulnerable.

Quackery to me only involves medical claims, but I am biased by the nature of my work. Within the medical establishment the pendulum has certainly swung towards scientific evidence and quality trials. Though this is important, I also feel medicine has become far too distant and depersonalized and I do think the role of many alternate therapies are too valuable and important to dismiss.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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jaramillo says on Oct 29, 2007, 16:44:

"I just can't follow a fairy tale that was written by men and long bearded patriarchs who lived over 2000 years ago."

Colombiche, I am sure you have better reasons for your agnosticism than that tired old cliché.

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morphus says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:04:

One thing about Colombia, there are'nt any pedofilia priests.

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:13:

I agree Kalder, I agree completely.

"The Catholic Church has done a lot of good through out the world... As well as a lot of bad.... Dating back to examples of the conquistadores throughout the Americas"

Had the conquistadors actually listened to Catholic fathers such as Bartolome de las Casas, the atrocities would NOT have been devastating to the extent they were. The crimes commited by the faithless conquistadores were NOT condoned by the church. These monsters ignored all humanity, and it was their selfish economic greed that spurred the conquest, not Catholicism.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:28:

That little cliche packs a lot of punch to me.

A religion is only as good as the minds who invented it. To me Catholicism is nothing but a Patriarchal, intolerant religion that has always been against scientific advancement or any sort of progressive thinking. Every religion is a product of the culture that owns it (or vice versa)

So either of the two is true:

a) It really is the word of god but the end product has been polluted by humans and their interpretation of it

b) Humans are so desperate in their state of total ignorance and non understanding of the universe around them that they make up fairy tales as a shortcut to explain the things they can't grasp.

If I was writing a scientific paper, I would have to go through years and years of exhausitng experiments and studies to prove my theories true. By the same token I could put on a golden robe, climb on top of a moutain and tell the world that I have a direct line with god or just saw the virgin mary's face in a half eaten buñuelo and I bet I'd have people making the trek on their knees without questioning my word.

Human beings are suckers for dogma and colourful tales.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:40:

Human beings are suckers for many things!

I know Catholicism has had it's pitfalls (and still has many to a lesser extent than before) however it did help the advancement of democracy in Latin America by means of CEBs, most prevelant in Brazil, but also to a more conservative extent in Colombia.

The example of the conquistadors is a perfect example of human greed, not religious greed. It is actually a perfect example of religious failure. They should have listened to the word of Catholic fathers such as las Casas (which they clearly didn't) who had divine authority in the New World. Greed and intolerance exists everywhere, and many dress it up in the catholic faith, and the catholic faith perverses some ideas which it shouldn't, but it is not an evil entity by any stretch of the imagination. It is what it is.

I'm not even catholic, I'm agnostic, but I have a certain amount of respect for the religion (as well as a lack of respect for aspects of its historical past).

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:40:

"I used to be Catholic. When I was 10 years I figure out that its all bullshit."


And I was 5 years old when I figured out that people who say Catholicism is "all bullshit" are full of the same.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:47:

See simon, that is the part I don't understand - that if somebody does not accept your religion as "their truth" are automatically full of it. Why?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:51:

"They should have listened to the word of Catholic fathers such as las Casas (which they clearly didn't) who had divine authority in the New World"

Yes, but las casas was a case of a human being with a kind disposition and a streak for justice. Had he been born a buddhist or an atheist or whatever, he might have still fought the battle against atrocity. By the same token you have the monks and the priests that tortured people in the name of Jesus during the spanish inquisiton. Which one is more represantive of the religion? I would say none. Back to my original point, religion is only as good as the individual practicing it.

Of course throw in the ingredients of intolerance and the absolute conviction that you own the truth and it is becomes a very dangerous mix.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:53:

It's called having faith....besides, there have been so many documented Virgin sightings throughout history around the world. When was the last time someone saw Muhammed or Buddha?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:56:

See to me agnosticism seemed like a healthy stance.

Religious people claim to know the truth, atheists also think they know that god doesn't exist.

Agnosticism says "the only thing I know is that I know nothing".

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:58:

Yeah, but there have also been many documented sightings of aliens. Even bigfoot has his believers.

I read up like 5 different books on Fatima and Medjugorge (sp). Why was it always just a handful of selected seers that could see the virgin mary while the rest just stood around.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 17:59:

"See to me agnosticism seemed like a healthy stance"


Yeah, but do you wanna take that chance when your times comes and you find out there really is a God and a heaven and hell?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:01:

I believe that he undoubtedly would have fought against those same atrocities, although as a land-owner he didn't, he gave that land tenure in the encomienda system to preach and become a social observer, and champion of rights.

When it comes to the Spanish in the New World, very little good can be spoken of them. The Reconquest of Spain is much more adept at identifying the pitfalls of Catholicism. They expelled the moors who had made southern spain the central mecca for european intellectualism, and got rid of all the jews. Idiots. But again, a reflection of a negative aspect of the Catholic religion. It has done much good too, and continues to do so.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:02:

"Yeah, but do you wanna take that chance when your times comes and you find out there really is a God and a heaven and hell?"

How am I taking a chance by asking questions?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:03:

I can't justify being an atheist, because I can't claim that god doesn't exist, and in a way by dispelling the notion of a god, it's almost as close-sighted as faith itself, isn't it?

And to be honest, organized religion is a bit dubious...

Agnosticism it is...

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:04:

Couldn't agree with you more. Atheism is a form of faith.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:06:

"Yeah, but there have also been many documented sightings of aliens. Even bigfoot has his believers."


And I believe in UFO's too!

Regarding Bigfoot, there's that famous old footage of him but I believe it was proved to be a hoax. He also doesn't keep appearing to people around the world.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:06:

Simon, if God really does care that I didn't adhere to one of the many religions throughout my life, despite living an honest life and doing good unto others, etc... and casts me into hell, then he can go do unpleasant things to himself :)

In the end, it's all a gamble anyway. 'god' i don't think is that petty,.

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:06:

"Regarding Bigfoot, there's that famous old footage of him but I believe it was proved to be a hoax. He also doesn't keep appearing to people around the world."

What? I just saw him on a tv commercial! :)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:07:

"When it comes to the Spanish in the New World, very little good can be spoken of them."



Typical anti-Hispanic BS.....yeah, and the English explorers were a bunch of saints, right?

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:10:

Anti hispanic? This is getting good.

Anyway, I'm off to the gym, I'll let you guys know if I see bigfoot or the sasquash on my way there.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:13:

Everyone (Spaniards, English, Portuguese, French and Dutch) made a mess of "our land". I just hate it when only the Spaniards are dumped on by North Americans.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:13:

Simon. How? Surely you've taken history 101. SPAIN KILLED AND RAPED ENTIRE POPULATIONS! I'm not comparing them to the British. Just reread what I write, you'll not only find factual accuracy, but I also defend the catholic faith, which at times (even you have to admit) is pretty hard to defend!

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:21:

Which means you are the one making the comparison. If we are talking about Colombia, how the hell can we talk about Britain other than some random pirates?

Now, here's something to thikn about... why then are north american and british colonies developed, yet Spanish ones not? If i'm going to piss you off, it might as well be for something that I said, rather than something that you incorrectly inferred.

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jaramillo says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:24:

"To me Catholicism is nothing but a Patriarchal, intolerant religion that has always been against scientific advancement or any sort of progressive thinking." Sorry Colombiche, but that is plain silly. Universities were created by the Catholic church and the popes were the great patrons of renaissance art and science.

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:25:

Argentina and Chile are pretty developed, they even elected female presidents before any of the British colonies.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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manINred says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:27:

That's because most of the British Colonies don't have presidents: they have prime ministers!!! And yeah, they are both pretty developed, let's hope they continue that way and that other countries will follow in their path!

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 18:28:

"That's because most of the British Colonies don't have presidents: they have prime ministers!!!"

That's right, their head of state still continues to be the Queen. How archaic!

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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Colombiche says on Oct 29, 2007, 19:31:

Popes were great patrons of renaissance art and science??

Certainly not Pope Alexander VII or Pope Urban VIII, who banned or were hostile to heliocentric theory. The catholic church condemend Galileo Galilei to house arrest and executed Giordano Bruno for his "heretical ideas".

The catholic church opposed surgery and the dissection of cadavers

IT took the vatican until 1992, YES 1992 to "pardon' Galilei and officially admit he had been right. Umm, I don't know, but to me 350 years is not moving with the times.

So the church was a patron of the arts (religious art mainly), how many examples can you come up with of the popes being the GREAT patrons of the sciences? (besides the posterior lifting of the bans)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 29, 2007, 19:59:

Many of the early scientists were ecclesiastics trying to find out more about the natural world as well as obvious applications for navigation, engineering, war, astronomy, alchemy, etc.-- I could drop names if you really want. Monks obviosuly played a role in transmitting ancient knowledge and in developing things like mathematics. Lots of early scientists (e.g. Newton) were deeply religious. But I am unaware the Popes per se were strong supporters of science in general. Galileo's "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems: Copenican and Ptomley" made the Church look foolish, and it did take them a long time to forgive the slight. Not to mention Darwin and the Librorum Prohibitorum. The Church has at best a mixed record in suporting science, even if Copernicus did dedicate his treatise to the Popes.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Simon says on Oct 29, 2007, 22:13:

"Yeah, but do you wanna take that chance when your times comes and you find out there really is a God and a heaven and hell?"

How am I taking a chance by asking questions?"



I think the risk isn't in asking questions, it's in doubting the existence of God.

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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john_stark says on Oct 29, 2007, 22:20:

I'm starting to think Colombiche is the Colombian version of Sarah Silverman.

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gringolondinense says on Oct 30, 2007, 01:27:

more recently..............

Stephen Hawking: Pope John Paul II Weighed In On Origins Of The Universe


World-renowned astrophysicist, Stephen Hawking, said that Pope John Paul II once told scientists they should not study the beginning of the universe because it was the work of God.

Hawking quoted the pope as saying, "It's OK to study the universe and where it began. But we should not inquire into the beginning itself because that was the moment of creation and the work of God."
The scientist then joked that he was glad John Paul did not realize that he had presented a paper at the conference suggesting how the universe began.

"I didn't fancy the thought of being handed over to the Inquisition like Galileo," Hawking said during a sold-out audience at Hong Kong University of Science and Technology.

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gringolondinense says on Oct 30, 2007, 01:28:

I just love that bit


"we should not inquire into the beginning itself because that was the moment of creation and the work of God"

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 05:23:

Dear Colombiche, I can come up with many examples of how the popes were great patrons of the arts and sciences, and not just the popes but the church in general. The Galileo matter is almost always brought up as an example of an anti-science attitude, but that is a misrepresentation of historical events. But this would be a long debate and this is probably not the best venue. As a scientist and a Catholic I have no problem with the stance of the church.

To say that the church has a mixed record in science is like saying that scientists have a mixed record on human rights. Simply not true on the whole.

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2007, 05:38:

Of course, it's not true on the whole. That I can agree with, there have been times when the church has supported arts sciences.

I would hesistate to think of a religion that still doesn't allow a woman to be a priest (never mind pope or anything relatively significant) or that just announce contraceptive use if no good, progressive.

All in all I just don't agree with a lot of the views. God knows (hehe) Jaramillo I come from a background every bit as catholic as yours. I respect your views and those of everybody else but I just don't share them. I hope my comments are not regarded as offensive, I am not personally insulting anybody,nor do I intend to make a mockery of anybody's belief system. I just think the church is backward arse.

Who is Sarah Silverman?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2007, 05:39:

"I think the risk isn't in asking questions, it's in doubting the existence of God."

I'll let you know if I get hit by lighting on my work to way this morning ;)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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podborski says on Oct 30, 2007, 05:41:

I agree 100% with CK on this one.

I was raised a catholic, and my dad was very religious, but I saw a lot of things in the church that I disagreed with (let's start with the concept of 'original sin', and go from there), even at age 10.

I do think religion has played a vital and useful role in the world, for hundreds of years, maybe thousands.

But I find it hard to believe that in this day and age people are still willing to throw over reason and science for faith.

I am perfectly fine with anyone who has faith, and I confess, when I see a Colombian make the sign of the cross when they pass a church, or get on an airplane, I can't help but smile, I guess I see it as another sign of the innocence of Colombians that I appreciate so much.

What I disagree with, of course, are the extremists of any religion, and I think the catholic church is as bad as any of them, as the Pope John story above relates.

I truly believe religion is a dangerous force these days, and if we followed the wishes of the most powerful religions, we'd be stoning women adulterers and stopping all kinds of scientific research (like stem cells, which I don't even understand, but I trust scientists) that has potential to save many, many lives.

Not to say that the church doesn't do some good work, maybe more so in poorer countries than what I see (or fail to see) in north america.

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2007, 05:43:

thanks pod, you said it better than me, I am slightly more articulate after I've had my morning coffee.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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gringolondinense says on Oct 30, 2007, 05:51:

I recently saw what blind faith can do. I know someone who has been diagnosed with cancer. That person is very very catholic. That person recently turned down surgery because they believe god will provide the cure and that "god is more powerful than any doctor". Now Ive lost all hope for this person.

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 06:05:

Podborki, I diasgree 100% (as you say) with you and the biche woman :), as much as I like you both. And I say it with some amusement because as a young scientist I subscribed to these old tirades that the two of you repeat. The problem is that they do not bear scrutiny.

"but I trust scientists". If I had to put my life in someone's hands I'd choose my priest over any scientist. Incidentally, the church is not opposed to stem cell research. It is opposed to creating embryos for the purpose of using them. But in an age in which life is cheap, some people cannot support that stance.

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 06:20:

Gringolondinense: I feel sorry for this person. Perhaps he/she is desperate. When one's odds are very low (e.g. certain prognosis are a virtual death sentence), and suffering ahead seems unbearable, it is not strange to reject medicine (for both believers and atheists). If the person has a religious faith, it can help her or him bear the load. On the other hand, the person might simply be stupid and/or ignorant.

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Plato says on Oct 30, 2007, 08:51:

Wow. Look at all these people talking about religion. You guys are sure nutty!. Jaja!

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 09:01:

Jaramillo, what specific examples can you give about a Pope, and not the church in general, being a strong supporter of the sciences?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Plato says on Oct 30, 2007, 09:29:

Just a couple of examples:

Faith and Reason – encyclical – Pope John Paul II.

“Pope Bolsters Church's Support For Scientific View of Evolution", New York Times, October, 25, 1996.

James J Walsh. The Popes and Science: The History of the Papal Relations to Science During the Middle Ages and down to our own time. New York: Fordham University Press, 1908. Available for free on Google books. List the names of Popes and how they were involved and encouraged science.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 09:49:

Indeed, Plato. And in fact, Pope Alexander VII was a strong supporter of Galileo. But we cannot forget that the popes at that time had temporal in addition to spiritual authority. It is easy, in retrospect and without the benefit of 400 years of utter barbarism (as it unfolded after the collapse of the Roman empire), to condemn the church's ascent to temporal power. Be that as it may, Galileo, a genius as he was, was directly challenging the express instructions of the pope. Let us remember the times, and remember that other temporal authorities would have been far less tolerant. This is nicely presented in Dava Sobel's delightful book "Galileo's daughter". At any rate, Pope Alexander VII was a very well educated and smart guy, not the ogre some would like us to believe. It is true that to some extent Galileo was wronged. It is also true that Galileo acted imprudently and offensively. That he said "E pur si muove!" is apocryphal. That he remained Catholic, is well established.

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 10:12:

Your first two references don't really count, in my mind, as strong support.

Reading the Walsh book (1908), his arguments seem to be:

- During the Middle Ages there were more than 20 medical schools in Europe which received moneys from the Caholic Church.

- The Papacy supported the construction of Hospitals in Rome, Avignon and other cities.

- There was no formal ban (papal bull) on chemistry (though John XXII was concerned about the use of alchemy in counterfeiting) nor dissection. Pope Boniface VIII's ban on mutilation of the human body in 1300 does not mention dissection. Walsh states boiling and disemboweling fallen Crusaders for easier transport of their bodies back to their own country was the reason for the bull, which was meant for reasons of public hygiene. However, the bull may have been misinterpreted and reduced, but not eliminated, the number of dissections done -- but you can't blame the Popes for this.

- Several Popes in the fifteenth century were strong and direct supporters of specific anatomists. Walsh makes a good argument that the Church "was not opposed to medical progress".

- Universities were an outgrowth from cathedral schools.

- Some of the great anatomists were ecclesiastics; some of these became Papal physicians.

After reading this long text, I think it clear the Popes supported anatomy and medicine. Support for other sciences is lacking in the references quoted. Saying that evolution could still be the work of God is hardly direct support, and did nothing for Darwin.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Plato says on Oct 30, 2007, 10:26:

MT,

The point is that the Church is open to scientific progress as long as God is not taken out of the picture.

Recently, there is a new scientific explanation for the origin of the world called the "Anthropos Principle" - back to Aristotle's unmoved mover. I read about it in the New York Times. Google it . It's not as popular as the Big Bang, but some scientists are tired of trying to figure out what happened one second before the Bang. (By the way, order cannot come from chaos - impossible. However, order can disintegrate into chaos. Only an intellegence can turn chaos into order. )

You asked for Popes, so I held back on people like Roger Bacon - a Franciscan I believe? Tons more examples. In modern day, there is Father William Wallace, O.P. a Dominican and scientist. He wrote a book called The Modeling of Nature. Not for your bedtime reading. He's an engineer by training and served in the Navy.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Plato says on Oct 30, 2007, 10:52:

Ahh – here it is, it’s the Anthropic Principle, not anthropos (may bad - sorry!).

Anyway, it’s not a popular theory among the scientific community; in fact, many freak out over the notion. If you wade through the scientific lingo, it basically says that there are several universes (a zillion?) that could not have all come about randomly.

Critics feel the principle leans towards philosophy or religion but the point is that scientists do think about these things.

Personally, I think the theory is a little crazy the way it is explained.


Here’s the link:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06E5D61131F93BA15753C...

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 11:11:

"Support for other sciences is lacking in the references quoted", the discussion of the cited references reaches a historical point at which other sciences were not differentiated. Chemistry derived from alchemy fairly late. As recently as Newton astronomy and astrology mixed! So of course one cannot say the popes supported chemistry in the middle ages or even in the renaissance because chemistry did simply not exist. The great universities were created, regented, and staffed by the church. The independent scientist is a relatively new (post-enlightenment) entity. Evidently in more modern time the need for an active role by the church is has diminished. Yet, even a single community (the Jesuits) run hundreds of universities in the world.

The story with evolution deserves its own discussion.

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 11:36:

Fair enough, evolution is a different discussion. I also agree science and natural philosophy were undifferentiated until Newton's time. I said above that many ecclesiastics played an important role in advancing science and math. I do not think individual Popes played an important role, though. Having no objections is not the same as strong support to me. It reminds me of those political campaigns you see in Colombia "no soy indiferente"... I agree that some people have also tried to say Popes were anti-science (largely based on the bulls of Boniface VIII and John XXII above), but that this is also largely untrue, though there are a few exceptions.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 11:39:

There is nothing crazy about the anthropic principle. However, it is not a theory because it is not testable and therefore not falsifiable (there goes my conservative side). It simply states that the universe is "fine tuned" for life. That is simply a matter of fact. Whether this is accidental or purposeful is the issue.

The opposition of many scientists to the anthropic principle, or to any role for God in the universe is not scientific. It all stems from an a-priori notion, that God is NEVER a satisfactory explanation. So the anthropic principle is often refuted with the idea (derived from quantum cosmology) that there are infinite universes (we're just lucky to be in this one). If it is easier for you to believe in infinite universes rather than in God, suit yourself.

An old patriarch (with a beard) implied 4,000 years or so ago that the universe was created out of nothing. Modern cosmology tells us he was wrong, it was created out of a space-less, energy-less, time-less, mass-less "singularity" (whatever the hell that is). If you think that is a great improvement, more power to you.

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 11:43:

Personally, I think the Bush administration (and Republicans in general) are more anti-science today than the Popes were at the bottom of the dark ages.

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manINred says on Oct 30, 2007, 11:45:

Hey Jaramillo, you have a very valid point there!!!

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podborski says on Oct 30, 2007, 11:45:

jaramillo I don't pay much attention to the details of the debate, it would just anger me I suppose.

But I do know the church is opposed to what I consider valid and perhaps revolutionary research that might save many lives, and I'm pretty sure God should be on the side of saving lives, no?

And if scientists are creating embryos, doesn't that kind of fly in the face of the idea that God is the creator?

I believe debates about religion are ultimately futile, as one either believes in faith or reason (despite all the nonsense about the two not being mutually exclusive, sorry, nonsense).

I'll never convince a person who has faith (nor do I want to), and no one will ever convince me of the existence of something that has no proof, but demands that I ' just have faith'.

And no, I am not afraid of what might happen to me after I die, I'd be thrilled to death, so to speak, if there is an afterlife, even if it is burning hot. I can hardly understand how a benevolent God could want to punish someone who lived a good life just because they believed in reason.

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 11:46:

Some scientists are also deeply religious and see God working through natural laws. Taking philosophy courses was a requirement of my first degree in engineering physics. Scientists do think about religion and philosophy.

If you do not believe in God, you cannot use God to explain natural phonomena. If you do believe in God, this in no way means there are not also laws that are testable or predictive, in fact it is clear that there are. This article does not explain the anthropic principle well; nor are cosmologists anything close to being in agreement.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 12:01:

“But I do know the church is opposed to what I consider valid and perhaps revolutionary research that might save many lives, and I'm pretty sure God should be on the side of saving lives, no?�?

True enough. The problem is when you start using lives to save lives. Create embryos to save lives. Why not create clones to save lives? Let’s have a Pod clone (let’s call him an IPod) and keep him in animated suspension for the day you might need a kidney. Or heck, take the fokin kidney from a prisoner that matches your tissue type. The church defends life. Although she is not necessarily always right, I’d rather be on her side.

“And if scientists are creating embryos, doesn't that kind of fly in the face of the idea that God is the creator?�?
C’mon Pod, now you are teasing.

“And no, I am not afraid of what might happen to me after I die, I'd be thrilled to death, so to speak, if there is an afterlife, even if it is burning hot. I can hardly understand how a benevolent God could want to punish someone who lived a good life just because they believed in reason.�?

The church has never said that God wants to punish such a person.

BTW, Tequila, well put.

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Plato says on Oct 30, 2007, 12:03:

You dudes are heavy hitters over here. I love discussion on Science and Religion. If I had more time to provide dig up and provide more evidence, I would love continuing this discussion full speeed ahead.

Jaramillo, most people don't understand what a priori or a posteriori arguments are. So, both you and MT are trained in philosophy? Cool! I'm a Thomist (surprise!) and I lean heavily on Aristotle. Did work on his Posterior Analytics. Also trained in theology.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 12:04:

Cool, Plato, but what does it have to do with Colombia? LOL

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Plato says on Oct 30, 2007, 12:06:

Dude, I've been trying to figure that out. LOL!

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 30, 2007, 12:49:

You're forgetting about the most important Catholic scientist of all, Dom Pérignon.

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cali373 says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:00:

Kalder: I really can't understand it when some posters slam the Church out-of-hand and refuse to credit it with any good. Is it doctrinaire atheism? Fashionable cynicism? Teenage iconoclasm?


No it's because its the freakin truth. I not have the time to explain how the the Catholic church has acted as a dictatorship (which is their basic structure), fieros law, supported acts of terror (inquisition, wars for independence), looked the other way (Holocaust, pedophile preists), acted as imperialists (the crusades), re-wrote history, etc. the list goes on and on.

I would recommend some serious reading into the history of catholicism dating back to the byzantine empire. Back then they even changed the birthdate of Jesus Christ. In case nobody knew Jesus Christ was not born on Dec 25th. The baptism of babies that cannot think for themselves into their religion and demonize those that don't follow the custom.

Do they perform good social tasks, absolutely! Are there non religious organizations that do the same, YES there are and without pressure to become part of some relgion.

In Colombia, catholicism is a factor in the political instability since the independence wars. A factor in the population explosion of the Colombia's poor since they teach young teenagers not tho use condoms and practise abstention. why can't they just teach abstention, because these teens are going to have sex. Ever met a 20 year old virgin, I have not.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:07:

"But I think those who slam religion often do so from the comfortable perspective of having ample food, shelter, the luxury of travel, and ignorance of the church's good works."

Man Tequila has a good pint here. but it is also these unforunate ones that are too ignorant and will remain so due to lack of ample food, shelter, the luxury of travel. I certainly do not deny the church's good works. but that makes it ok for the church to gt away and sweep under the rug hundreds of years of being part of oppression and spreading ignorance.

It is up to us the NON-ignorant to spread the truth so that any organization religious, political or not, stop from all forms of negative acts.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Cerealkiller says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:08:

I was a virgin at 20 Cali...Plenty of them in Colombia.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:17:

Yeah, but when you were a Teenager you were also a ninja, and a mutant, and a turtle.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:20:

How did we go from talking about creation to talking about virginity? You know when Plato asked what happened a minute before the big bang I dont' think he was referring to that big bang.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:26:

They only know what happened after the big bang so there can be no such thing as virgins. There are no Einsteins on this board. But only the Shakespeares get their posts deleted. Where is WowWow when you need him?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:30:

Lots of Einsteins on this thread. Looks like I am nowhere near as scientifically versed as any of you but still, that doesn't keep me from butting in :)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:35:

School isn't everything. I think you are one of the most consistently intelligent posters here. I think you know an awful lot. I wish I could call myself a PMP...

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Cerealkiller says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:45:

I thought 20 was no longer a teenager. I am still a heathen tejo ninja turtle though.
I have nothing against religious people who keep their believes to themselves. Religion is a very personal matter. I do not agree with the church interfering in political matters or rallying people in small towns like they do in Colombia, telling them who should they vote for. I don't support the idea of priests urging people to not get a divorce when a husband beats the crap out of his wife because he can't get it up. I hate the fact that you have to indoctrinate your children before they have the ability to think for themselves, that in my book is brainwashing...I reject the fact that church forbids African people to wear condoms, I don't agree with any man saying a woman cannot get an abortion because it is immoral, and I don't support any cult that does not allow women to participate along with men as equals.
Just my 5 cents, and if anyone does not agree then cool beans...I don't care.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:45:

Well, I went to university but I was never a science major. I have my Bachelor in business and a college diploma in computer programming (how the hell that happened I don't know). Of course programming was never really my passion, so I used to ditch doing my homework so I could read books about stuff I really like.

Why don't we switch places manT, you come work as a PMP one week, I will go work emerg and try to pass myself off as dr. Colombiche, you think people will fall for it?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:52:

"I would recommend some serious reading into the history of catholicism dating back to the byzantine empire. Back then they even changed the birthdate of Jesus Christ."

Wow, now I cannot believe in baby Jesus!

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:52:

It's a deal, but only if I get to call myself "Devious Honey".

Just make lots of referrals and make sure you look sincere when you tell people "We did everything possible." (In fact, this is almost always the case). Don't stick needles into people or shock their hearts unless medically appropriate.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 13:55:

CK, it's tough to be a virgin at 20 if you weren't one at 19, unless you believe you are "born again" after six months of cobwebs.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Cerealkiller says on Oct 30, 2007, 14:57:

Smarty pants Man T

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 16:07:

Yeah, I get that a lot. But far less often than you would suppose. I tend to keep my thoughts to myself IRL. ;)

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Simon says on Oct 30, 2007, 16:55:

" I hate the fact that you have to indoctrinate your children before they have the ability to think for themselves, that in my book is brainwashing..."


Yeah right, if we should let kids choose their own religion, then how about also letting them choose their own nationality, their language, etc.? lol

HERE'S SIMON!!!!

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jaramillo says on Oct 30, 2007, 18:06:

Lol indeed, Simon! Let them choose! (lol), or better yet, indoctrinate them into scientific materialism.

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2007, 19:45:

I had plenty of fun being raised a catholic. I went to an all girls catholic nun's school, I was part of La Infancia Misionera and I had to go to church every single day.

My parents baptized me like 3 days after I was born because they didn't want to take any chances about me dying in the crade and going to "limbo".

El dia de las animas, I got to go the church and take the communion 3 times in a row.

THe other day I even caught myself doing the sign of the cross before an exam.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 19:53:

I think choosing a religion is different than choosing language or nationality. But I don't see it as a terrible thing to teach your child your traditions and culture. If they don't like it, they have the choice to reject it later.

I always thought the Limbo of Infants debate strange.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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dwmte7 says on Oct 30, 2007, 20:00:

"....en el nombre del PADRE, del HIJO, y el SPIRITO SANTO, amen..."

dwmte

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Man Tequila says on Oct 30, 2007, 20:02:

Y nos NO dejes caer en la tentación, mas líbranos de mal.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Plato says on Oct 30, 2007, 20:28:

Tequila man,

The limbo issue is a theological opinion, not having the same force as dogma ex catedra. People got wrapped around the axle with that one for centuries.

Plato

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those [liberals] who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.--Dante Alighieri, (1265-1321)

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