Canciller de Venezuela afirma que el gobierno de Colombia no le permitió hacer pruebas de ADN

gorgonabob says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:20:

this just goes to show you what a bunch of morons the venezuelans are. they dont need to do another dna test.. the kid will now be handed to his natural mother/ grandmother/ or uncle. they are not going to hand over the kid nor will the relatives accept the kid if its not there natural relative. they can do another test after the handover at any time. to prove it is as the colombian govt says... to think they would make it up.. for the venezuelans to say theres something strange in it all. idiots..

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:23:

The colombian themselves say that it is not 100% certain.
They ask a second test in Spain.

Don not distord the information.

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:24:

And Uribe needs a fast (false?) approval of the sabotage he has performed on the rescate.

joshhyman says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:25:

it's even easier than all of that......let the FARC deny it and release the kid to prove they are right!

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:27:

OK it would be the best prove.

gorgonabob says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:27:

no dna test is 100% certain. thats true... the chances of it being wrong arent that good though

it would be nice to think its all a huge conspiracy theory but perhaps just perhaps its not

im sure the colombian govt is making it all up and the familia of Clara Rojas is going along with it all and they are going to accept this kid that might not even be theres...

juancegomez says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:29:

The thing is, even if a different kid is released by FARC we'd still need to do another round of DNA tests, or else some doubts will remain on both sides.

As for this news, I'm not exactly too happy about the fact that, whatever one may think of Venezuela and its actions (including this latest claim, which is frankly almost baby-like in its delivery), Colombia didn't allow them to do their own independent test, just for the sake of eliminating all doubts.

But even so, I wish that other entities are allowed to verify the result, even if Venezuela continues to complain. Apparently Colombia is going to allow such verification, from what I've just heard.

gorgonabob says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:31:

the natural relatives of the kid will obviously do another test when they have him in there care....how bad would the colombian govt look if they made up the fact that this kid was the womens son and then another test said otherwise.. not even the venezuelans are that stupid

juancegomez says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:34:

Whoever is wrong will end up looking pretty bad, whatever the truth is, of course.

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:35:

All this story is very strange.
And this José Crisanto Gómez Tovar who abandoned the child in 2005 and was candidate of "Colombia Democratica" pro-uribist party compromised with paramilitaries ...
Is there infiltration of FARC into uribist organisations or of uribist organisations into FARC ?

gorgonabob says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:37:

yup its all a big conspiracy.. i think ill move to venezuela and live there.. that country is so much more tranparent

juancegomez says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:46:

gorgonabob: I guess that depends, to a certain extent, on whether you include ideology in your definition of transparency, but I suppose you're allowed to do that if you like.

cassini77: First off, you should make up your mind: the EL CLARIN article you linked to before said -briefly and without elaborating anything else- that it was supposedly the Conservative Party, not Colombia Democratica (anyone who knows about Colombian politics will tell you that they are not the same).

Which one is it, in the end? If you really care about this discussion, you should clear up this detail.

Second, you should try to confirm whether this person is in fact the same one we're talking about here, and not someone with the same name (something that is not impossible at all, as even extradition warrants have led to capturing innocent people with the same name as a known criminal).

That is, if you want to actually discuss this...

Atrevido says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:51:

Why does Venezuela need to have anything to do with this? Why should Venezuela be doing DNA tests? Colombians are furious that Chavez has stuck his fat mug into a matter of Colombian sovereignty.

gorgonabob says on Jan 4, 2008, 09:58:

exactly.. hes fucked up his own country he should stay out of this one

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 10:00:

juance gomez: I agree with you when you say we must be prudent and try to confirm.

In El Universal they speak of Colombia Democratica (at the bottom of the paper) and write that the delegate of Colombia Democratica in that zone, Lion of Jesus Good, maintained that José Crisanto Gómez obtained the guarantee of the party:

http://www.eluniversal.com.co/noticias/20080103/ctg_nal_continua_la_ex...

In Caracol Radio same thing:

http://www.caracol.com.co/noticias/527259.asp

elk says on Jan 4, 2008, 10:10:

BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) — DNA analysis indicates a 3-year-old boy living in a Bogota foster home is the child of a woman held captive by leftist rebels for nearly six years, Colombia's top prosecutor said Friday.

The results suggest President Alvaro Uribe was right — and that the leftist rebels misled Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and the world when they promised to release the boy along with his mother Clara Rojas and another hostage from their jungle camps.

The DNA analysis shows a complete match between the mitochondria in the blood of Rojas' mother and the boy, chief federal prosecutor Mario Iguaran announced, meaning that there is a "very high probability" that "this boy belongs to the Rojas family."

The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, promised two weeks ago to release the boy fathered by a leftist rebel, along with Rojas and former congresswoman Consuelo Gonzalez. Chavez assembled a team of international observers and invited filmmaker Oliver Stone to participate, along with a media horde.

But the rebels never told Chavez where to pick them up, and blamed operations by Colombia's U.S.-backed military when it called off the liberation of the three hostages on New Year's Eve.

Uribe then announced that the rebels could not keep their promises because they did not have the boy, who had been living in foster care under a different name, Juan David Gomez, for more than two years.

Venezuela complained that Colombia had not permitted its own team of specialists to take blood samples from the boy to make its own confirmation of the DNA results.

"I told the Colombian foreign minister that that attitude casts a cloak of doubt on the investigation," Venezuelan Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro told state television Friday.

juancegomez says on Jan 4, 2008, 10:28:

cassini77: Then, at least for now, it would seem that the EL CLARIN article was wrong about the specific political party involved . Thank you for clearing that detail up.

On the other hand, according to the EL UNIVERSAL link, apparently the man only received 30 votes (not enough to be elected as a councilman) and allegedly presented himself as a "displaced person" in order to receive the party's sponsorship three months before the elections.

I don't know if that story is true or not...but if so, one would imagine that he could have received many more votes and even won the election if he had, on a personal level, the necessary paramilitary support. Why didn't that happen?

Also, it's not impossible for FARC to infiltrate people within traditional or even Uribist parties...in fact, I'd consider them to be quite stupid, strategically speaking, if they didn't even try to do it. Maybe that's not the case here, but it stands as a general principle.

Regardless of the actual identity and loyalty of this man, however...the issue of fully identifying the boy (or boys, if and when FARC frees another "Emmanual" candidate) remains. If the DNA tests are verified by other entities, as has apparently been announced, I'd accept this result.

elk says on Jan 4, 2008, 10:30:

Sr. Hugo is screwed on this issue regardless of his opinion.

Maternal Lineage
Mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA, is inherited only from our mothers. Mitochondria are found in all of our cells and serve our bodies by generating ATP which is used by our bodies as a primary source of energy. During fertilization only eggs have mitochondria; sperm have mitochondria in their tails, but this portion of the sperm comes off prior to fertilization. Tests looking at mtDNA in both men and women give information on maternal lineage only. If your mtDNA profile matches another person's, it is very likely that you share a common female ancestor. You can also take a mtDNA test to learn more about your ethnic ancestry or to trace your maternal lineage to one of the Seven Daughters of Eve1, prehistoric women who shared a common maternal ancestor named Mitochondrial Eve.

elk says on Jan 4, 2008, 10:41:

I would suspect "confirmation on the DNA match" will be a priority item for Colombia and Sr. Hugo will be eating his words...or probably not. I imagine Hugo is currently "pissed" at the boys discovery.

DNA tests results show "a high probability" that Uribe was correct, the source in the attorney general's office said.

"The scientific proof indicates that the child in the care of the Colombian Family Welfare Institute is Clara Rojas's child. There is a small margin or error but a second test will be performed in Spain to provide confirmation," the source said.

Emmanuel's name and other details of his life in guerrilla custody were revealed last year by a police officer who escaped the rebels after eight years in captivity, sometimes in the same camps as Rojas and her son. (Reporting by Luis Jaime Acosta; Writing by Hugh Bronstein)

tasco66 says on Jan 4, 2008, 11:35:

After this farce of a hostage release and the defeat at the polls of his new constitution, Chavez should do the right thing for once and resign. He has lost all credibility at home and abroad.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

robi666 says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:19:

From the comments to El Tiempo: Laboratorio español confirma que analizará prueba ADN de niño que sería Emmanuel, el hijo de Clara Rojas
http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/2008-01-04/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR...


"Aprovechemos el viaje de las pruebas a españa y mandemos una prueba de hugo chavez para que a que raza de simio pertenece." LOL

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

billyb says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:23:

"Chavez should do the right thing for once and resign"

Or seppuku!

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:30:

El ADN de Juan David
ABP Colombia

El gobierno colombiano ha confirmado la hipótesis de que el hijo de Clara Rojas no está en poder de las FARC EP sino en custodia del bienestar familiar, el fiscal Iguarán sin embargo utiliza la expresión “alta probabilidad" con lo que queda un resquicio de duda, si bien menor que antes.

Sin embargo continúan los procedimientos anómalos y las informaciones veladas por ejemplo se impidió según declaraciones del canciller venezolano Nicolás Maduro que el gobierno venezolano sacara las pruebas de ADN por su parte. Y vemos al intendente Pinchao retractándose de declaraciones antes hechas y muy bien filmadas

El presidente Chávez y en general el gobierno venezolano no han hecho en general al igual que las familias en espera de la liberación de sus familiares entre las que estaría la “hipotética abuela" gran escándalo pues como se ha confirmado por organismos especializados esto atenta contra los derechos universales del niño.

La gran prensa colombiana estaba preparando a todos para la respuesta y desmintiendo algunas pruebas contundentes que señalarían las inconsistencias de la hipótesis y de paso atentando contra los derechos del niño que el gobierno de Venezuela a tratado de proteger con su prudencia. Se teme entre las organizaciones sociales y populares colombianas que sí esto es un montaje la vida de Clara y su hijo corran un peligro mayor.

En este momento la incertidumbre crece, en tanto los procesos concernientes al tema de la parapolítica han pasado a un segundo plano igual que el tema por ejemplo denunciado en varias agencias incluida la ABP sobre la posible culpabilidad del presidente AUV en el asesinato de Pedro Juan Moreno Villa amigo del presidente y que fue completamente invisibilizado por la prensa nacional.

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:39:

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsm0E-U4Ofo

billyb says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:47:

Keep grasping at straws.

MitchAlvarez says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:49:

estos venezolanos todavia metidos en todo lo de colombia. estan muy cansones pues.

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:52:

off

tasco66 says on Jan 4, 2008, 13:54:

This bogus hostage release will go down as just another deception ploy by the narcoterrorist guerrilla. Let us not forget what they did just a few months ago:

BBC Sunday, 29 July 2007

Farc 'killed hostages by mistake'

The 11 politicians who died while being held by Farc rebels were killed during an accidental clash between factions, Colombia's intelligence chief has said.

Andres Penate said intercepted communications showed the left-wing movement had shot dead the hostages after coming across another rebel unit.

Thinking they were security forces, commanders ordered the hostages to be killed rather than let them be rescued.

The Farc said in a statement that they were investigating the incident.

The group had previously insisted the politicians were killed in crossfire when an "unidentified military group" attacked their jungle camp in the western Valle del Cauca region on 18 June.

'Deception'

But the head of the DAS intelligence agency denied there had been any military operations in the area, saying informers and communication intercepts proved the Farc were responsible for the deaths.

Mr Penate said evidence showed the commander of the 60th Front, who is known as El Grillo, or the Cricket, ordered the politicians to be shot dead after his fighters clashed with the 29th Front.

They're trying to deceive the public, pretending that the hostages were located in the proposed safe heaven so that they can blame the government for their deaths
Andres Penate

Mr Penate then presented the transcript of a radio conversation, in which an unidentified Farc rebel reportedly asks about the sole hostage who was not killed in the incident.

The rebels then "tampered with the scene of the crime" and attempted to move the bodies before they are handed over, Mr Penate said.

"They're trying to deceive the public, pretending that the hostages were located in the proposed safe heaven so that they can blame the government for their deaths," he told reporters on Saturday.

"Fools! Assassins! Liars! Now they want to consummate the lie," he added.

The BBC's Jeremy McDermott in Bogota says that, if it is true, the massacre will pile yet more pressure on the Farc, which after more than 40 years of fighting, has reached its lowest level of public support.

The Farc, or Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, is attempting to overthrow the government and impose a socialist state.

The politicians were among a group of some 60 hostages - including Colombia's former presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt and three US defence contractors - who the Farc want to swap for hundreds of their imprisoned comrades.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

cassini77 says on Jan 4, 2008, 14:03:

Tasco 66, your news are rather old.
The autopsy of the bodies of the Cali deputies showed that things were not so evident.
I shall try to retrieve the links.

juancegomez says on Jan 4, 2008, 14:10:

cassini77: So apparently ABP, which seems to be a "cousin" of ANNCOL but is just as viciously pro-FARC, is the source for at least some of the recent stuff you're posting...not that you shouldn't post it, but I'd hope there were better sources.

As for the video, i already pointed out four things about it in another topic, if you would care to read them.