Cali Gun Permit

RobMiami says on Dec 26, 2006, 10:04:

by the way BTW I spent two hours searching these forums using the Google search in the left column and read hundreds of posts but did not find any specific information useful to my situation. So thanks in advance for that advice too.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 26, 2006, 10:26:

My experience: you need to purchase the gun and ammo from the "military gunstore" called Indumil www.indumil.gov.co their phone number in Bogota is 1-222-2995..with your cedula you should be able to easily get one, but there is a ton of paperwork...since you purchase the gun and ammo directly from them (only 9mm and 45cal; and if you want a 45 you need a special permit), your selection of firearms is limited to those in stock..i believe there is a gun class certificate you need to have, but that was waived for me....the guns are normally cheap european model which the military got a good deal on with the appropriate kickbacks to all involved...but somtimes they have had Glocks in stock....personally, i would wait til they have decent guns in stock..if you go and see a SigSauer 45 there, let me know as soon as possible! =).you might find if there is a local Indumil office in Cali, and you can browse their website for that info....

hope it helps!

Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Atrevido says on Dec 26, 2006, 10:49:

You have to go to La Batallion on Calle 5 near barrio Capri to the little building on the left as you enter to get an application. You´ll have submit a certification of pasado judicial from DAS along with the application. The process will take six months to a year or more and then you buy the gun at the same location. I saw only .38s and some very expensive Rambo style shotguns. Alternatively you could hire reputable armed security for your hours of operation.

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robi666 says on Dec 26, 2006, 10:56:

Rob, you need tons of paperwork, but, knowing the right person, you'll just need to have ready your Cedula and the Certificado del DAS (criminal record that you can get at DAS). The "right person" will help with all the paperwork. I got my Beretta Cougar 9mm in one day. If I want to buy a Uzi, no problem.
As you told me, anyone has got a friend or a relative that can hook you up, but it is just shit... do not trust anybody. 12 millions is a lot of money, what they promise to give you for that? A Leopard Tank? Just go to the Indumil and ask yourself: someone will help you. Or, I can really hook you up with my person, but you' won't trust him, so take my advice and go yourself to Indumil in Cali first... and let me know.

M_C, actually they seem just to import Check CZ and those lightweight Israeli Jericho (by the way Rob, a CZ or a Jericho would cost something like 6 millions, "all inclusive"). You'll have to buy the SigSauer second hand or wait forever. No problem... good choice, but I would go for a 9mm as "your friend" Pablo...

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 26, 2006, 11:02:

robi....the 9mm carries more rounds in the magazine, but the 9mm round has a nasty habit of bouncing off windshields, etc..no real penetration at all...i have see those others, but they are a waste of money IMHO..oh, btw..i love my model a and model b uzis.....=)..

Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Ctg Bound says on Dec 26, 2006, 11:34:

RobMiami There is a small list of things that you need to get sorted out, your local military indumil office can give you the application form and the list of things you need to do, they are all pretty simple, total cost for the paper trail, a revolver and 100 rounds should be less then 2 millon pesos, the permit is valid for three years, to renew is a 100,000 pesos or so.

Other types of weapon will cost more, or less depending on what it is, presuming they have them in stock.

List of things:

Application Form
Doctors Cert
Shrink Cert
DAS certificate of good conduct

There are a few others, but I can´t remember now, but things along these lines.

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Gator says on Dec 26, 2006, 13:52:

Still Valid I think Gun Ownership?

You have to go through the army to complete the purchase of a firearm. DAS, to the best of my knowledge, is not involved legislative authority which regulates the possession of firearms by civilians is Industria Militar (INDUMIL). INDUMIL is also the legislative authority that regulates the sale of firearms and firearm supplies to civilians.

Licencing Requirements:

Applicants must be over 18 years of age with full citizenship or have Colombian cedula; A form provided by Industria Militar must be completed; authenticated photocopies of the applicant's identity card and police record must be presented; Proof of the need to possess weapons for the applicant's safety and protection must be provided; and medical certification of mental and physical fitness to use weapons must be presented; persons known to be suffering from chronic alcoholism, dependence on narcotic drugs or psychotropic drugs may not receive a permit and you must complete an approved firearms training course (Certificado Maneso de Armas.)

I have no idea if the above requirements are still in force or accurate. I do not have a permit because I do not carry on my person-just keep in the house/apartment or, occasionally, in the car. I did ask my brother-in-law (retired military and at one time in his career was the military police commandant of the military district-Bogotá.)

His reply was if you are a gringo watch out but he also said the percentage of people who do have a firearm with them is very, very high. BTW, you shoot and or/kill someone with a gun and do not have a license there is a mandatory jail sentence of six months. This applies even if it is self defense. Under Decree No. 3664 of 1984, article 1 provides for an imprisonment period of between one year and four years and confiscation of the weapon in cases of illegal carrying, transport, manufacture or distribution of firearms.



"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Ctg Bound says on Dec 26, 2006, 15:01:

Gator DAS is not involved other than getting the Certificate of good conduct, if you already have one as long as it is not over a year old it will be valid.

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Gator says on Dec 26, 2006, 15:10:

I Thought I said That, Ctg Bound??? From my post: "DAS, to the best of my knowledge, is not involved.."

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Atrevido says on Dec 26, 2006, 16:18:

DAS is indeed involved to the extent that you must get your pasado judicial from them. Apart from that no one said anything about the gun permit application going through them so I don´t know why it was brought up. Also I applied for such a permit in Feb of 2005 and am still waiting. A Colombian friend has been waiting a year for his renewal. A shrink certificate separate from the doctor´s letter is not required. Also there is no training session required in Cali though it´s certainly a good idea.

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Gator says on Dec 26, 2006, 16:28:

All DAS Does is provide the Pasado Judicial certification of good consuct. The rest is basically a military matter. The medical certification is also a joke

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Atrevido says on Dec 26, 2006, 17:20:

I thought I Said That Gator??? From my post: "DAS is indeed involved to the extent that you must get your pasado judicial from them."

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robi666 says on Dec 26, 2006, 18:18:

Ok, it is just me who got it in one day? Medical certification, as Gator said, is a joke. At Indumil in Santa Marta they also ask a certified training session... of course, it is a joke this too. Two different officers will have to sign: this greatly depends on the one who's helpin you with the application. As I told you, all can be done in one day. The hardest part is to understand who can help you... Feb 2005? Atrevido, I don't think you'll ever get it.

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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poco says on Dec 26, 2006, 18:22:

Hummmm- a gun in Colombia Is not a good idea. Trust me on this, I've owned lots of guns in the U.S. including silenced full autos.

This was my favorite.


Now what ? People know you bought/have one,, rich guys you are, I'm sure. Let me say this, Colombians will not give you a chance to use it, you will be dead real quick.

That being said,, go ahead and get a gun. Good advise above, I'll add this. Find a retiring security guard, policeman or DAS or ??? that has a gun AND the papers. He will be glad to help you buy his weapon. About a year ago a policeman or security guard,, can't remember which,, was selling his pistol, nothing special, probably a two or three hundred gun in the U.S. and he was asking and got about 1,500,000 pesos, including the papers.

12 million, ha, ha, nothing is worth 12 million.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on Dec 26, 2006, 18:29:

This was my next favorite This is a swiss army rifle (Model AMT), converted to a semi-auto and imported into the U.S. as a hunting rifle. Sold for about $250 U.S.D. in the late 60's, and at that time this was a HUGE amount of money for a rifle.

If you find one in Colombia, buy it and get a permit,, my guess is these sell for upwards of $6,000 U.S.D. new in box,, if you can find one. I don't think ANY full autos were imported into U.S.



Oh,, forgot about my wall project. The entire wall was 18 meters. About 7 meters was roofed. NO ONE in my town has a roof constructed like this, well,, except for me and this is more of a hobby than something that needs to endure for the ages.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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robi666 says on Dec 26, 2006, 18:31:

1) Poco, I agree, Indumil has got crazy prices, but that's the only one that can sell guns. if you want to buy a revolver at 300mil pesos, no papers, I'll be glad to help you. Una arma sin papeles no vale nada.
2) If you buy a gun with papers, you go into the same process that you would buying a new gun. So what?
Once again, you pay for papers, not for the gun!

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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poco says on Dec 26, 2006, 18:44:

Hmmm, I wasn't clear 2) If you buy a gun with papers, you go into the same process that you would buying a new gun. So what?

Buying from an individual probably isn't cheaper and maybe not better. I was suggesting that it would be a good way to learn the process because you have a seller helping and you know the gun is registerable (sp?) and might be different from what you can buy at the military store.

Many security guys have the "sawed off" (short barrelled) pump shotgun in 12GA. I'd suggest one of these for "home defense". OR you could buy a TRENCH COAT and carry with a strap (for quick deployment) attached to a harness. Might be a little hot wearing it in Cali ?

BTW: DAS has the gun pictured above in full auto. The gun above also has a three shot burst selector in addition to full automatic. I'd bet DAS paid about,, $600.00 for theirs,, the same thing in the U.S. sells for,, $15,000 and up, depending,,

Used Guadua for roof supports, approx. 10 to 12 cm in diameter.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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robi666 says on Dec 26, 2006, 18:54:

Guadua is incredible, isn't it Poco? I am building a cottage roof near Tayrona with that...
Have a look at www.guadua.org

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Atrevido says on Dec 26, 2006, 18:54:

Well I kind of lost interest. Expensive and really not necessary. Anyway I´m really enjoying the pictures of the guadua but I think I missed the segway.

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poco says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:14:

Guadua Roof I've built several small structures out of Guadua. Four years ago it was readilly available in Armenia and cost about 12,000 pesos for 12 to 13 cm diameter immunized sections 6 meters long. Ha,, good luck finding it now. I looked around and it was 20,000 pesos (plus) and it was not as thick.



Used esterilla matting (I guess everyone knows what that is :) for the cement roof.



Again, I'd stay away from the guns in Colombia. BUT IF YOU MUST HAVE ONE.

I'd get a 100 round drum magazine. These were "banned" for a few years but the U.S. decided what the heck,, everyone needs a 100 mag. and who are we to stop them from having a few at the house.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:15:

Agree The 9mm rounds penetration is not very good.Go for a .45 ACP one shot and any thing you shoot at is going down and stayind down.I have heard stories of people emptying a magazine of 9mm with out having effect on attackers at certain ranges.

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Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 19:34:

9mm is for pussies.Real men carry the trusty .45 fuck yea!

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 26, 2006, 20:05:

the 40mm is a good balance between higher capacity mags, and knockdown.....=)

Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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robi666 says on Dec 26, 2006, 20:49:

Pablo Escobar (famous for his SigSauer 9mm) and Carlos Castano (famous for his Beretta 9mm) were not exactly pussies, Giann... anyway... to make things worse, I tell you that you can carry just 9 rounds in a 9mm, guess why? Because the Colombian paper says so! So, you are stopped at a "reten" and a fucking officer pull out all the rounds. If you have more than 9... say goodbie to your gun!
I actually do not know how many rounds are allowed in a .45 or in a .40, maybe 7, maybe 5, maybe less...

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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robi666 says on Dec 26, 2006, 20:52:

Anyway, Jesus Christ, in USA you're crazy about guns! Must be terrible to live there... Què miedo... :-)

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 21:00:

How do you put pictures in the thread? Want to show off some of my guns.Pablo ey Castano? eejje son mujeres :)

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robi666 says on Dec 26, 2006, 21:02:

Use www.tinypic.com Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Giann says on Dec 26, 2006, 23:00:

My baby Trusty ole Mossberg 500

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 27, 2006, 00:01:

My Thompson with a 100 round mag, 45 acp

great for Halloween Costumes of Al Capone....=)


Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 27, 2006, 00:12:

Work Tool #1

Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 27, 2006, 00:15:

Work Tool #2

and no, you cant see the rest!! jajajaja....but i am fond of my MP5 with laser sighting.......


Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 27, 2006, 00:20:

I still have not found a legal way to bring them to Colombia yet, but i am working on the military people....=)

Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Atrevido says on Dec 27, 2006, 04:15:

As to being stopped at a reten it states right on the "pase" the gun and number of rounds.

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vicshere says on Dec 27, 2006, 06:32:

original poster most of the info here is correct.....my advice is to buy a new gun direct from immuil go through the process mine took 3 months....i bought a CZ compact D in 9mm....in the USA it sold as a CZ P01 is a very nice gun and i have no probelms with it....and its very compact for carry...by the way you can carry 10 rouns 9 in the magazine and 1 in the camber......good luck vic


listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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robi666 says on Dec 27, 2006, 06:36:

Vic, just curious, so your colombian license says that you can carry 11, or it is the capacity of the gun?
Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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vicshere says on Dec 27, 2006, 16:04:

well the magazine only holds 9 rounds .....the permit doesnt not say how many rounds you can carry ......its not legal to have a magazine with more than 9 rounds unless you have a special addition on your permit for extra rounds...so nine in the magazine and 1 in the chamber equals 10....but actually i think this handgun can hold 14 rounds and 1 in the chamber for 15......but if you get caught with more than what the law your in shit again....so i always carry an extra magazine just in case

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

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robi666 says on Dec 27, 2006, 16:49:

Ok, that's what I was saying... My magazine can carry 15. I just put 9, because my permit says "CAP. CARGA: 9"
Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 28, 2006, 20:09:

Finally a topic I know a little bit about. 9mm parabellum / Nato / Luger, whatever you want to call it, is actually notorious as an OVER-PENETRATOR. That is why a person does not go down sometimes when hit in center of mass by a 9mm. The round simply goes straight through the body without spending much energy in the body. A .45 auto round goes slower, and weighs a lot more. Therefore, besides making a bigger hole, it tends to spend most of it's energy in the target - which causes much more trauma. I don't want to get into details, but trust me, a 9mm will penetrate a car window or windshield, no problem. A lot - most - police agencies in the US have switched to .40 SW, because of the over-penetration liability issues of the 9mm, as well as the related topic of shooting a suspect several times with said suspect still posing a threat ... because the rounds went in and out with little internal trauma. And the poster who called out the "silencer" vs "supressor" thing ... you stole my thunder. No such thing as a silencer. But a good supressor is a pretty cool toy. Here is one of my toys. Sorry, I hate those damn timers on cameras.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Giann says on Dec 29, 2006, 09:29:

Actually The Ak-47 7.62 round will cause more damage then the 5.56 from a M-16.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 29, 2006, 14:36:

Robert, i dont know where you get your PD info, but in CA the agencies buy the 9mm because it is less expensive to buy and no other reason, and definitely NOT due to over penetration and liability.. Since the buyers are not gun experts, but bean counters, but some agencies have input on the selection of weapons thorough meet and confer benefits through their union benefits. And, the 9mm is infamous in police shootings at vehicles in NOT penetrating a windshield except under unusual circumstances, so MOST officers purchase the 45cal or the 40 mm to carry on duty for that very reason, based on studies by POST in CA and the R&D units for larger agencies. Big difference between manufacturer claims and actual field tests. And unless you have conducted a recent survey, please dont say that SW is the brand of choice by cops...not true...i dont know of ANYONE who carries a SW by choice, only sigs and glocks ..they just dont compare to the quality of a sig, nor the lightness of a glock.....

now if i only can get my hands on the new 50 cal sniper rifles......=)..just for target practice, of course....guess i will have to go visit Nevada....=)

Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 30, 2006, 00:11:

OK Miguel Clavo. First of all, a .40 SW is not a Smith and Wesson gun. It is a caliber. It is a shortened version of the 10mm auto. I never said police agencies have switched to Smith and Wesson weapons. I said they have switched to the .40 SW round or caliber. The Glock 20 or 23 being the most popular. Sig, Beretta, HK, are all great weapons in .40 SW and are popular with various agencies. I was talking about the round, not the weapon. And, unless shot at an extreme angle, the 9mm will penetrate a windshield, no problem. Trust me, I know. A hardball (full metal jacket 9mm) 9mm will go through a lot, but does NOT spend much energy in said target. If one has a good defensive round, like Gold Dot, Safety Slugs, Hydra Shock, or any other manufactured hollow point, the 9mm is devastating. My buddy, who was a Miami Dade cop, Jim Farouet, killed more people in the line of duty than any other cop in Florida ... perhaps the US ... and with a 9mm. Ironically he was murdered on New Years Eve 1997 with a .22. No matter what you carry, shot placement is critical. If you shoot a bad guy with a 9mm hard ball, if you hit him in the nervous system, ie: head or spine, he will go down. Same with any other caliber. But props to .45 auto. It is awesome, and much more hard-hitting than a 9mm. There is something to be said for a round that has been around since 1911 ... or before, and still considered world class.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 30, 2006, 00:48:

Hey Don Gringo. What makes a high powered rifle round the most effective is ... energy spent in target ... like any bullet. A 5.56mm or .223 is known in it's lighter weight bullets to instantly de-stabilize at impact. In other words, it makes a huge interior cavity (trauma) after penetrating soft tissue. Actually, the currently issued rounds are made to NOT de-stabilize with the rifling rate of the issued weapons. It is considered politically incorrect to do so. So, when a US soldier shoots a bad guy with his Colt M4 or SAW, the rounds just go right through the bad guy. The hole is the size of a small pen. No biggy if you hit nervous system or heart. The way the old .223 or 5.56mm acted when hitting soft tissue when the round was 55 grains, going 3000fps+, with a 1 in 12 or 14 rifling, was crazy. The second the round hit target, the round would de-stabilize and cause a HUGE cavity in the target. The infamous, "tiny hole going in, huge hole coming out". There were people who tried to ban the .223 because of this - back during the Viet Nam conflict. And, an AK 47 round ... 7.62 x 39 is also a horrible round to be hit by. It is considered "medium" powered, but it will rip an arm off or remove huge parts of tissue on impact. I would have no preference myself on what to be shot by. I would choose NEITHER.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Coqueton says on Dec 30, 2006, 14:14:

Doesn´t the 7.62x39 wobble as it flies and that will cause much more damage than the fast and straight flying .223?

I guess its like the debate among deer hunters, which is a better round, the .270 or .30-06?

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 30, 2006, 20:06:

RJ... SW makes several 40 cal semi autos.. for leo purposes....next time clarify what you are talking about in your post and it wont cause problems, because your post it can just as easily refer to SW (Smith-Wesson) 40 cal semi autos as well, in which i disagreed with your post if referring to the brand,....if not, then you are correct...nowhere in your original post states your clarifying description of ".40 SW round or caliber" which is more specific....and to "Trust me, I know." doesnt cut it as i have read close to 100 crime reports with officer involved shooting at vehicles in CA since 2000, and the scary reoccurring theme is 9mm (when used) NOT penetrating windshields, and also fyi, in California we use the hollow point almost exclusively. i dont know of any modern agency who uses a hardball anymore.

"My buddy, who was a Miami Dade cop, Jim Farouet, killed more people in the line of duty than any other cop in Florida ... perhaps the US ... and with a 9mm. Ironically he was murdered on New Years Eve 1997 with a .22. " somehow this supports your originally statements?
I suppose you want to talk about knowing cops killed in the line of duty? after about the first 20 or so, i stopped going.....impressive funerals, as long as it is not your own..=)

i have no objection to the rest of your post. i was disagreeing with the part about the 9mm penetrating a windsheild in police shooting...i was involved in my agencies reversal about using 40 and 45's, which we were not allowed to carry....the deciding factor in allowing us to carry them was if the officer paid for them out of their own pocket! which, as you can probably guess, just about all 1600 officers did, with exception of the oldtimes who still opted for the revolver!!!???

anyway..my hats off to you as you seem to know you munitions...=)

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 31, 2006, 01:32:

Miguel Well, my original comment said, .40 SW. This is a caliber, not a weapon. And of course SW does manufacture several models using this caliber. If I said, a Smith and Wesson in .40 SW, I can see how one would be confused. But I didn't say that.
Coqueton, no, the 7.62 x 39 round does not wobble in flight. It is extremely stable. It is just a typical medium powered round that has almost identicle ballistics to an old fashioned .30-30. And a .30-30 has killed more deer than probably any other caliber. Any round with similar ballistics is horrible to be shot by. Not you, or anybody else here necessarily, but a lot of people don't realize what these rounds can do to soft tissue. Real high-powered rounds like a .30-06 or .300 Win Mag, 7mm Mag, etc are so powerful, they would just go in and out of a human. What makes a round devestating, is if it looses stability and tumbles immediately upon entering soft tissue.
Miguel, I have seen windshields shot with 9mm, and shot a few with a 9mm, and I never saw a round not penetrate. And, you are correct, all agencies issue hollowpoints in that caliber, of various manufacturers. Why? Because 9mm is an overpenetrator and the hollowpoint makes the round spend more energy in the target. If you would like, drive over to Destin, Florida. I would be glad to shoot your windshield to prove that a 9mm will penetrate it - without you in the car of course. I'll buy you a beer afterwords, but I won't pay for the glass, or the interior damage. The bullet will be gratis. I live out of city limits, so we won't be breaking any laws. Just a quick smart-ass question. If a windshield was a good bullet stopper, why isn't body armor made of windshield glass? Again, I will admit that at a certain, severe angle, a 9mm can ricochet off of a winshield, as any bullet could. You can bounce bullets off of water if you shoot at it at a low angle.

And about my buddy who was killed. I wasn't using that story as a support for my argument, except to provide evidence that a 9mm is deadly, and that he killed many people in the line of duty using that round. And, I was just trying to also show, though morbidly, that he was killed by a mere .22. Just trying to support the argument that shot placement is everything.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 31, 2006, 10:32:

Maybe because glass is not flexible, which is a needed quality in bullet proof vests...and such a vest would be just a tad bit heavier as well...obviously you have never worn one on a daily basis over 27 years as i was required to do....lead might work too, right? ..and your offer seems rather lame and stupid, but very macho indeed....maybe you can find some democrats to take you up on that, but i stand by the research and copies of the police reports that i have gathered and read personally. Like i said, most progressive agencies use hollow points, and that is the round i am referring to...and "experiment" test firings in controlled enviroments have little commonality to actual field use.

Even body armour has its weak spots....many officers have been killed by rounds that have entered between the panels prior to the overlapping models.

Just my opinion...and brought to you by a kinder and gentler

Miguel_Clavo =).....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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