Brother killed for his shoes

litost says on Nov 19, 2006, 08:42:

I think that even those of us who constantly defend Colombia and are accused of down-playing the safety situation would never refer to it as "the safest place on earth".

Sorry about the tragedy, I have heard a few similar stories over the years. It would help to know a little more about the exact circumstances (city, day or night, neighborhood, etc.)

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podborski says on Nov 19, 2006, 08:58:

ít's not meant literally litost it's a common idiomatic expression. When someone says 'it's not the safest place on earth' or 'he's not the smartest guy in the world' it's understood to mean 'it's a bit dangerous' and 'he's not all that smart'.

I wasn't trying to criticize anyone, just think it helps to have a little reminder now and then that colombia is not, for example, japan.

I myelf sit on the fence on this issue, as I feel perfectly safe in Bogota when I am there, and I will be back in december.

probably just posting because to me it is still a shock to hear of these kinds of things happening to people that are close friends.

Don't know all the details, my friend is too upset to talk much about it right now.

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podborski says on Nov 19, 2006, 09:05:

it was in chapinero, Bogota, early evening from her email:

habian ido a chapinero y pararon por la 57 con 7 mi hermano se bajo del carro y dijo que ya venia que iba a comprar algo y nunca volvio ese dia (a Sunday) ellas lo esperaron y xxxx se fue a su casa en el carro como pudo pues casi no sabe manejar eso paso el domingo el no aparecio y lo empezaron a buscar una tia que se llama xxxxxx lo encontro en medicina legal el martes donde llevan los muertos no identificados dicen que lo mataron por robarlo porque no tenia tenis ni celular no se como lo mataron no quise preguntar.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 09:06:

Buy me a beer sometime and i will tell you the details of crimes more heinous than what you wrote of that i was involved in after more than 27 years of police work in the 10th largest city in the US. People have been killed for less and for equally insane reasons as in your post. However, what you wrote about has happened in the US before, and will happen again. Everyone here concentrates on and are preoccupied with the violence of Colombia, but are ignorant of the fact that many places in the US (their own backyard!) (or whichever country they are from) are equal if not worse than areas of Colombia. I dont remember anyone posting on PBH that Colombia does NOT have crime or violence. The only "safe place" on this planet is where there are no people, sad to say. One can just as easily be killed in the US as in Colombia. When it is your time, it's your time!

Sorry to hear about the misfortune of your friends brother.

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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podborski says on Nov 19, 2006, 09:14:

I know Miguel I am not criticising colombia or saying it doesn't happen elsewhere,

People on PBH are just trying to find a safe way to enjoy the country, that's all. And this is a colombia site, so that's the country we talk about.

Personally I feel much, much safer in Bogota than I do in Detroit.

I have no idea if that makes sense or not though...

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 09:17:

Sounds like he was found without a cell/shoes, and they believe it might be a robbery. More details need to be known, as an after death theft by passerbys may have occurred as well.

Preliminary information.

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 09:25:

Personally, i dont feel threatened at all in Colombia. I just dont let paranoia set in, and practice common sense safety precautions, like always know your surroundings, etc. But, like i say, problems can occur where ever there are people....

Podborski, nothing i wrote was directed to you in a negative manner. Many people enjoy Colombia and are not victims. Same as in the US, etc. I agree that Colombia is meant to be enjoyed safely.

Cant wait to hear "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" over and over again ad nauseum.....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 19, 2006, 10:46:

More PBSH. It can happen anywhere. Yeah, it can but it happens in Colombia with greater frequency than most other places. Keep on telling yourselves gringos that it can't happen to you. Muerte para los gringos!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel says on Nov 19, 2006, 11:23:

PBSH I have to take charge and claim that I, "Miguel", and not the esteemed "Miguel_Clavo" was the creator of PBSH (PLENTY BULLSHIT HERE).

I'm sorry for the OP and his friend's loss, but like others have mentioned, this is hardly particular to Colombia. About two miles north of where I work is the hood of St. Louis, and if there are less than 5 murders a week, it's all good in the neighborhood. Miguel_Clavo has seen it all. GIB/DG has seen it in Bogotá. I've seen it in Barranquilla. UC has seen it as has his wife. It ain't Disneyland.

Iraq anyone? Those fuckers have it bad. Sudan anyone? Don't get me started.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 19, 2006, 11:43:

I though PBSH was "Poor But Stupid and Happy"

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Miguel says on Nov 19, 2006, 11:47:

Tinto You missed class that day! ;-)

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Miguel says on Nov 19, 2006, 12:07:

DonGringo STUPID you are not...but you got to agree...PBSH as in Plenty Bull Shit Here. Me voy.

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scotty says on Nov 19, 2006, 12:15:

and it only happens in N.Y. , Detroit, Boston, L.A., Miami, shall i go on?...ok..Rio, Mexico City, Lima, Tinbuktu..

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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podborski says on Nov 19, 2006, 12:22:

I dunno what the statistics are for violent crimes all over the world. I'm sure they've been dissected a thousand times here, and we all know about lies, damn lies and statistics.

But what I do know (sorry to be a broken record) is that of the hundreds (maybe a thousand?) of people I know reasonably well, mostly in north america but some from europe and asia, only 1 person ever had a close friend experience a violent crime.

Of the, oh say, 30 people I know reasonably well in Colombia well more than half have told me of relatives that have been murdered. (Most of the events happened more than 5 years ago)

Completely anecdotal and unscientific, but that 'statistic' should tell you something, although it might be that colombia USED to be extremely dangerous and now is just like any other country.

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Miguel says on Nov 19, 2006, 12:38:

You are right OP Almost EVERY colombiano I know (and there are many, both here in The States and in the north coast), have lost family to the guerilla and the paracos. I went to a grave yard on "el dia de los muertos" a few weeks back in Barranquilla, and it was packed.

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podborski says on Nov 19, 2006, 12:50:

not to make light of it all but just read in the local paper (La Nacion, Buenos Aires) that NINE THOUSAND people are killed (not just injured)in car accidents every year here.

Incredible...not sure I even believe that stat...

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goin_south says on Nov 19, 2006, 13:13:

What's the population of B.A.? Something like 14 million? How is the traffic there, podborski? Still, yeah, that seems like alot. 9,000 deaths from auto accidents.

One thing I gotta say and is because I have been in a few fairly damaging auto accidents myself, is that in my three visits to Colombia, I am pleasantly surprised that I think I have only seen one auto accident, (and that was new years eve, so I'll give 'em a break on that one.)

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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podborski says on Nov 19, 2006, 13:38:

that stat was for all of Argentina, 39 million more or less. BsAs has 13 or so million.

Traffic is bad here, but not as bad as Bogota I'd say. I saw a LOT of bad accidents in Colombia. I'd say the stats there must be as bad or worse than here.

I also saw a number of just over 4,500 for argentina, so don't know what the real number is. Both are pretty damn high.

People here are aggressive, turn right from the far left lane, stuff like that, but don't often drive on the wrong side of the road which I saw all the time in colombia. They also do not wear seatbelts, and motorcyclists don't wear helmets, insane IMHO.

I also think drivers are nuts in spain, france and italy, and taxi drivers in london are downright nasty (but very skilful I must say).

I'm too lazy to look up the numbers but it would be interesting to know who the worst drivers are based on accidental deaths. Probably be india or something if they had any reliable numbers.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 14:31:

Consider the Source...UTC only knows of Colombia through the eyes of his wife, and what, 5 trips to Medellin? Hardly a basis for knowledge of the subject matter. UTC even claimed there is no crime in HIS city at one point in time...then why do you have a police agency servicing your city?? hmmmmm....seems like a waste of tax payer money to me..people in your city should be outraged!

Violence occurs more frequently in the US since the population is much greater..do the math...translation: there are more assholes in the US to commit violence 24/7.. I have never read anyone claiming on PBH that there is NO crime in Colombia, as the Chicken Little Club seems to claim is the position of the GoGoClub. Yes, anyone in the US or Colombia can be a victim of violence. thats kind of a no brainer.

DonGringo/GringoinBogota and the other self-acclaimed "pseudo-experts" here on PBH want people to be afraid to visit Colombia, as opposed to visiting Colombia excersising common sense security precautions applicable in US and worldwide. Visiting Colombia does not equate to an automatic Death Sentence, as the Chicken Little Club wants people to believe........


....Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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juancegomez says on Nov 19, 2006, 14:54:

There's a world of difference... ...between warning people that there's a greater security risk in Colombia, one that can be reduced but never completely eliminated, and implying that if you come to Colombia you're automatically going to be stabbed, robbed, kidnapped and sent home in a body bag, 100% guaranteed.

The first statement is a reasonable one, one that should be repeated as many times as necessary. Colombia, overall, has more dangers than other countries, but you can reduce those risks a lot, depending on how you act, which places you visit, etc. and, as always, simple luck.

The second is pure speculation, not any better than ignoring the risks and pretending that this is a happy-happy land (which, sadly, it isn't). Colombia is dangerous, but it's not unlivable, nor are all dangers equal and unavoidable no matter what you do.

There has to be some way to talk about this matter without assuming that Colombia either has to be "the safest" or "the unsafest" place in the world.

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PreciosaPaisita says on Nov 19, 2006, 15:13:

sad but true its very sad but true. Its the only thing that makes me nervous about being in Colombia, but hey with everything great comes a risk. My cousin was killed for his jacket and shoes.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 15:23:

Buenos AIres has the right idea....i suggest a "pillow fight" between the Chicken Little Club and the GoGoTeam members to settle the issue once and for all!!!!!!

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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goin_south says on Nov 19, 2006, 15:38:

podborski... My three trips and clean driving record observation only includes Cali (hey, that is crazy drivin, now!), Medellin, and Pasto, and everything in between Pasto/Cali. Not bad; one accident. I can imagine Bogota can be prime time, more accidents.

Yeah, in Colombia: Paradar, mirrar, y eschuchar; tres veces!
Is my spanish getting a lil better? no?

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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morphus says on Nov 19, 2006, 16:00:

In New york, people have been killed for jackets, sneakers, cakes and Chinese food. There are sick people everywhere.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 16:20:

First homicide i responded to was over the selection of the TV channel...May 1979..the 260 lb wife beat the shit out of her 115 lb husband and then stabbed him.....she wanted to watch one channel (which i know wasnt the Jenny Craig channel!!) and her husband a different channel!!!!!! should of had two TVs!!

Christ, Morphus! over Chinese food!!!!!!!!!!!!! yikes!!!!!!!

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 19, 2006, 16:58:

East L.A. Don`t forget the drive by shootings IN LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA USA!!! Do not go out at night alone in bad "barrios" NO DEN PAPAYA!.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 17:46:

Home Sweet Home, LZ....that is where i was born! I have always said, "Los Angeles is a great place to be FROM!" jajajaja....dont miss it at all! nor do i miss that brown haze that everyone is breathing there!!!

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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goin_south says on Nov 19, 2006, 19:50:

East L.A....East St. Louis, .... the South Side of Chicago... Careful. It is some tough livin, there.
(And, I believe when I am in Colombia, I am going to start carrying an extra pair of shoes and jacket, in a back pack, jus to give away under dire circumstances, when approached by these.)

"Tengo mucha compasión para su amiga, Podborski."

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 19, 2006, 20:13:

How well I remember, Miquel_Clavo, your pathetic attempt to use internet statistics about Uvalde County. Utopia sits on the border between Uvalde County and Bandera County. It shares almost nothing with the county seat and most of the rest of Uvalde County for reasons that I do not care to go into here. The only law enforcement is the occasional sheriff's patrol and if you actually knew what you were talking about, you would have to agree with me. I lived there for ten years in a house which had no locks on any doors. It wasn't just unlocked - it couldn't be locked. In fact I could drive out there now and walk right into that house or any other house there. It wouldn't do to do that while the residents were there but during the day while they're at work, I could. That type of place is as about as far removed as one could be from Colombia and still be on planet earth. Five trips to Colombia? That's my "story" and I'm sticking to it.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 20:23:

Then you should be outraged by having to pay taxes to support a govenrment agency that is not needed as the rest of the Utopian citizens should be. I did have a rather nice chat with one of the Deputies there and he had quite a nice laugh when i told him there was no crime in Utopia and the surrounding area. Pathetic? who is the clown now, mr sheep wrestler? jajaja

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 20:25:

So you are now saying there is no crime in Bandera County as well? that can be easily confirmed.....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 19, 2006, 20:34:

So you're going to come up with more internet statistics. Good one, dude! From end to end, Bandera County is about 50 miles and there are parts of the county, like Wharton's Dock and Lakehills where things do happen. I wouldn't leave anything unlocked there. I guess you believe that crime is uninformly spread thoughout a county. Not even rainfall is uniformly spread throughout the county. It rains a lot less in Utopia than in the city of Bandera, rainfall drops about an inch every 15 miles as you move west. As for talking to the deputies, this is the internet, you could say you were George Bush's illegitamate half brother. Sure, if you say so! And I'm George Clooney.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 20:39:

Goerge Gooney, maybe......Crime is possible anywhere. Period. even where sheepwrestling occurs. To say that it is not possible (get that this time, P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E) anywhere is just plain hilarious.

No internet statistics, i would go straight to the Police Agency who has jurisdiction for that area......you get straight answers there from the patrolman themselves.

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 19, 2006, 20:51:

You know every so often I'd like to actually come right out and disclose certain irrefutable facts which would lay waste to some of these posts. This is one of those times but I'm going to pass. Let's get back to hookers.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 19, 2006, 21:10:

First, my condolensces First, I want to say I'm sorry for your friend's loss.

But I also want to say that nobody, anywhere, is killed for their shoes and cell phone. They're killed for NOT GIVING UP their cell phone and shoes or whatever else the robber asked for.

This is why you should never be a hero when someone sticks a gun in your face.

Whenever I'm in a place where I think robbery is even a possiblity, I try to always carry enough cash in my front pocket to make a robber very happy. No Bogotá street thug is going to off you for politely offering up a fistful of 100,000 peso notes. Or your watch. Or you shoes.

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goin_south says on Nov 19, 2006, 22:53:

To Protect and to Serve... or as Mario says: To Swerve.

"you get straight answers there from the patrolman themselves."

Patrolmen? are you speaking of 'police officers'? They're not the brightest bunch of people around town. (But, they do like to shave their heads and take steroids.) Straight answers?? Say what? I have observed those guys in court; some appear as though they haven't woken up from yesterday's buzz yet. Mostly, officers of the law are or appear as: confused, in training, or angry/aggressive, or all of the above.

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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goin_south says on Nov 19, 2006, 22:59:

On the other hand... Most of the officers in Colombia appear very alert. and, even friendly. sometimes.

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 23:28:

I am not sure where you are located and how your cops do their thing, but in California, they are quite the opposite. Ignorance is bliss. Your coppers are only representative of the community they serve,,,,,,hahahahha,,and that is why they pay a top step police officer over 100k per year....a 90% pension, with full dental and medical benefits paid for life.........i am laughing all the way to the bankkkkkkkkk.............

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 23:29:

Yes, Mario has this thing about driving in Texas....hahaha Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 19, 2006, 23:34:

Oh, and i almost forgot, we can retire with all that at age 50. Sweeeetttttttttttttttt.......

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 20, 2006, 09:28:

South Central Strobers, have you ever even been to South Central LA? You could WALK around most of South Central LA at 2 AM without a problem. There are a few hotspots at any given time where the gangbangers are warring, but what's shocking about it is how totally NORMAL the area is most of the time.

Don Gringo and I don't always agree but on this one I'm with him 100%. To compare a bad part of, let's say, Boston or Detroit to Chapinero in Bogota is just apples and oranges. Remember, Chapinero is one of the GOOD neighborhoods. It's the equivalent of Park Slope in Brooklyn.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 20, 2006, 11:15:

at Strobers.....i have always said that if salaries were paid out according to the value and importance of the service one provides to to the community and society, teachers would be among the highest earners! I have two sisters who are teachers, and it is a dedication to teaching that drives them, not the $$.....Policework is similar, in that you never will get rich off the salary, but there is a "pot of gold" at the end of the rainbow, so to speak.

I lived in East L.A. til the age of 18, and many of my family are still there. Warring gangbangers are only one factor in the violence in East LA and Southcentral, Mr H. Violence associated factor such as knuckleheads, drugtrade, prostitution, immigrant smuggling, police harrassment/abuse, addicts, poverty, lack of ecomomic oppurtunties are some off the top of my head. These places are anything but normal, but to the casual visitor it may appear as such. One has to be aware of exactly, and i mean exactly which barrio you are passing through day and night. Most people from there have never been to any part of the city outside of where they live. I dont participate in arguments of the "who has the bigger d$ck", and a person can just as easily be killed or robbed in any economically depressed area. And if a person was to walk around any of these places, there is no guaranty of certain death. Sometimes you do, sometime you dont. But that in itself doesnt make it an entirely safe or unsafe place.

and if you want to know if someone knows anything about South Central and Easl LA, ask them who are the bigger A at #holes, the LAPD or the LASO? Their answer will reveal their familiarity with the area.


Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 20, 2006, 12:31:

The Forum, first of all, is in Inglewood, but I'm not going to split hairs. But a simple question: How long ago was that incident? 1980s? Early 1990's. Just out of curiousity. Things were MUCH worse in South Central LA during the peak of the crack epidemic.

I'm not talking abstractly, I've spent a fair amount of time in that part of LA in both daytime and night. I'll go with my multiple experiences over your one.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 20, 2006, 12:40:

Rubito, in SCLA and East LA the name of the game is territory and respect. Its more than just being suspicious....in south central there is a real and pronounced hatred of anything white, korean, and latin by a certain segment of that society.

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 20, 2006, 12:45:

Miguel I imagine you're aware that Latinos now prettty much outnumber Blacks in South Central, right?

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 20, 2006, 12:51:

Latinos are 51% of California, some papers report. It is not the quantity of each racial group that is important...it is how aggressive the actions are of the group towards other segments of society........

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 20, 2006, 13:56:

Ignorance is bliss, I guess... STrobers wrote, "Now, I have a simple question for you. Why do you spend "a fair amount of time in that part of L.A.?" You aren't a crack head, are you? lol."

Actually, Jackass, years ago my wife used to tutor a kid who lived there. Lovely kid about 6 who lived with his 5 sisters in a trailer with his granny.

Given your ideas about "suspicious black people" and "crack heads" though, I, it probably is best if you stay out of that part of LA.

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 20, 2006, 17:39:

Miguel/Brown Haze I don't know what is more difficult to stop, the violence in big cities or the pollution. When I left Medellin, it was a very clean and beautiful city, and the mayor crimes were minor, "Gamines" will take your watch or purse. But now my dear city is much more polluted than Los Angeles. I live by the beach, so the breez blows the brown haze to the east. I NEVER been to east L.A and never will. The news on T.V. is scary, people do not even get out of their homes, and they get killed just watching T.V, inside their living rooms by a straight bullet, kids can not play in the streets. LA REALIDAD ES QUE EN LAS CIUDADES GRANDES HAY MUCHO CRIMEN. I visit Medellin often, but I watch what I wear and where I go. NO DEN PAPAYA!!! Enjoy Colombia and DO NOT ARGUE SO MUCH, YOU GUYS!!!. PAZ Y AMOR.

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 20, 2006, 21:31:

NO WAY! No way, If you are in a small town or close to a small town, it is quit and nice, unless you are in Caqueta of La Selva Amazonica. Here in The States, small towns are very nice, everyone knows you, you leave your house unlucked, I lived in a one of the most beautiful places on eath, small comunity, and I never lucked my car or house!. Lake Tahoe, noth California.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 20, 2006, 21:45:

We would not argue at all if we had photos of your beautiful face to look at, mi querida. Danos un foto, mi vida. No tenemos nada en nuestras pobres vidas - no belleza como tuya.

Miquel_Clavo will be along in a second with a bunch of internet statistics that show you don't know what you are talking about and that your entire experience in Lake Tahoe was wrong because he says so. And he talked to the sheriff too. Or maybe he shot the sheriff but he didn't shoot no deputy.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 20, 2006, 22:01:

Come on, Rubito, it won't be so bad. When you start hearing the Deliverance banjo music, you'll know it's time to skedaddle.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 20, 2006, 22:13:

I know poor and rich I know some in Arizona, and there are buch of indios gordos, borrachos, los blacos no tienen dientes, que gente tan fea!!!, so I don`t want to live there. I live by the beach, and I never go to Los Angeles, or east of any where here, I live in a nice town, but there are the Chicanos here and they robe houses sometimes, and cars, I had my car stolen many years ago. The thing is, you live where you want to live. I LOVE Colombia, but I could never live in Medellin again (que pesar) I like Rionegro, and I will live one day in "El Penol".

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 20, 2006, 22:17:

More UtopianClown slobbering......wipe your chin here little cowpoke.....i must really have gotten your "goat", little sheepherder....jajajaja......el rey de los pendejos, isnt that the title that you claim? i was going to bury the hatchett since it is a new day, but you are such an easy prey...jajajaja...

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 20, 2006, 22:18:

and when fired upon, i return fire, little man......=) Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 20, 2006, 22:19:

so let the games begin!!!!!!! Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 20, 2006, 22:20:

Todavía tengo dos o tres de mi propios dientes, mi amor. Y estoy borracho solamente un mitad de cada día. Contigo voy a portarme mejor a verte con ojos claros.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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goin_south says on Nov 20, 2006, 23:29:

Rubito says: And it's no secret that most of the violence in Colombia is in remote areas.

Exactly; take the town of SAMANIEGO IN SOUTHERN COLOMBIA, for example.

That would be nice, Utopiacowboy, if the ELN gave you the warning of the Deliverance Banjo music every time

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 21, 2006, 09:47:

Samaniego??? Never heard of it, I am talking about, small towns not toO far from the city, like "Santa Elena" "El Retiro" "La ceja" "Rionegro" "El Penol" and not IN the town, somewhere near by. You can live by Santa Elena and drive to work to Medellin if you need to. Don`t go to ESTREMOS, of couse if you go 4 to 5 hours away into the jungle, or forest, there are the "gerrilleros". You people just like to argue. IF YOU DON`T LIKE COLOMBIA, STAY AWAY, GO AWAY AND DON`T SCARE AWAY PEOPLE, THAT WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THIS BEAUTIFUL PLACE.

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gringolondinense says on Nov 21, 2006, 10:04:

what scares me is when I hear stories from normal everyday folk who mind their own business. A friend told me that if shes going to the airport (bogota), shes drawing unwanted attention to her family. She doesnt want everyone to see her putting a suitcase in the back of a taxi. Hell, she doesnt want people to even know shes off to the airport, so she'll make up a story like shes off to Cali for the weekend and blab that around. Shes trying to put the badies off the scent.

Her families phone bills have been checked for international calls which would reveal a contact in gringoland where shes working. Her family have to always use calling cards, so the actual number doesnt show up on the phone bill. She tells me her family are being watched.

Scary stuff.

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Miguel says on Nov 21, 2006, 10:15:

DG wrote: "This kind of thing happens all the time here."

Your comment reminded me of logging on to EL HERALDO a few days ago only to see on the front page a picture of an engineer slumped over in the driver's seat of his car after being shot to death by a couple of punks on a moto. Robbery was not the motive.

For you Colombian or gringo business owners here on PBH that are operating in Colombia...what is your experience with extorsion?

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 21, 2006, 10:57:

What Kind of Businessmen were they and type of business? Doesnt make much sense to draw conclusions based on such miniscule information. More detailed information needs to be revealed. Rubito made an interesting point that many times the so-called "victims" are really not victims. Preliminary assessments are usually wrong.

I have never had an issue with security issues being posted. Its the manner in which they are posted, and the constant "harping" on this with the intent of slamming Colombia unnecessarily. Most PBHers are intelligent enough to know that if they walk around Colombia with thier bling-bling and dollar bills hanging out of all their bodily orifices, they just might get rolled/killed for their stupidity. Very few people need to be told NOT to walk in front of a speeding car. Its just common sense, the same practices a traveler should excercise anywhere in the world, not just Colombia.

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel says on Nov 21, 2006, 11:20:

Hey Miguel_Clavo What's your plan when they shake YOU down?

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goin_south says on Nov 21, 2006, 11:47:

Lisa Zee No; we just are not in denial about both sides, the good and bad. do a search on Samaniego, and you can read. It's located north of the road between Pasto and Tumaco. 'It's no picnic' ;)

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Nov 21, 2006, 12:24:

My plan, Miguel? All depends on the situation at hand.. My philosophy is along theses lines: In police work it is taught
"Never to give up your gun", based on the idea that the bad guy will gladly take the gun that is given to him or her and he or she will happily shove it up a place on your body where the sun dont shine. Studies have shown this time and time again. I personally feel that i would have a better chance of survival by taking the bad guy on WHEN given an oppurtunity. This does NOT mean closing your eyes and rushing the bad guy. Now, the best philosophy is the prevention of the incident by excercising common sense things such as always being aware of your surroundings. Paranoid? no, just aware. The more control of the situations that you have, the better the odds of survival. If you let the bad guy set the conditons, then its an uphill battle.

I also hold a much different approach to life than most. I belief when it is your time to meet The Man upstairs, its your time and there is not much you can do about it. In my prior career, i only thought of getting killed as a police officer in the beginnging. Sure, it was possible, and it caused my family to wig out at times, but within a short period of time i stopped thinking about it, and i didnt want it to interfere with performing my job. The funny thing is that most cops dont get stressed out over the job itself and the inherent dangers. Most cops get stressed out over the micro-managing by their supervisors and the lack of support in conducting the job as trained. interesting, but true.

And contrary to other posts, i believe a CCW permit in both the US and Colombia also helps. =) (assuming one is proficient in it use) I prefer to be the one to give the suprise rather than being the recipient.

i always get a kick when i hear that a armed robber from California, where most convenience store clerks are not armed, gets shot by the convenience store clerks in counties within Arizona who are armed. Ooopppss! i bet the robber wont make that mistake again!! Pobrecito!jajaj...

BTW, i apologise for yesterdays tirade against you. I kind of went overboard, and hence my apologies.

anyway...off to the airport, i am spending Thanksgiving in that other 3rd world country called Texas!! jjaajajaja...just kidding, Mario! =)

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Lisa Zee says on Nov 21, 2006, 17:46:

Galecito I belive you. My point is I avoid dangerous places!!!. BUT I GO SHOPPING AND RIDE TAXIS IN MEDELLIN, I USED TO DRIVE MY MOTHERS CAR, BUT THE TRAFIC IS SO BAD I TAKE TAXIS. I KNOW WHERE TO GO AND NOT. WHEN I WAS THERE 2 MONTHS AGO WITH MY GRINGO, WE WENT MANY PLACES, BUT I WAS WATCHING OVER MY SHOULDER. I WILL GO TOMORROW IF I HAVE THE TIME. Not only gang member get killed by straight bullets in L.A. last night a 4 year old kid got shot. There are MANY horrible dangerous places in this country, but I do not get near them.
My family live in El Poblado, we walked everywhere. I don't go to el barrio Samora, or even down town, or walk alone,or take a taxi, unless I called it first. THERE IS DANGER EVERYWHERE EVEN IN zwitzerland!. How about Paris France?. YOU JUST HAVE TO BE SMART, AND AVOID DANGER. NO DEN PAPAYA.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 21, 2006, 18:13:

Your gringo? Dime mas sobre tu gringo, mi vida. All the hot chicks here seem to have a gringo of their very own. Por que no un Colombiano?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 21, 2006, 19:12:

Quizá él es un príncipe.
Quizá él es un príncipe.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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goin_south says on Nov 21, 2006, 21:17:

yeah, I also believe that about the bullets vs. lawyers.... IN Colombia. I wouldn't know, but the PRICE OF BULLETS SHOULD BE QUITE HIGH in Colombia; I have heard that and it seems lawyers down there are not nearly as high priced as in the USA, and it seems I have observed and know a few who have little work. Especially, a few Colombianas. Why did they even go through law school, if the work then is so hard to find?

Lisa Zee, I was only expanding your horizons to the southern part of Colombia: Samaniego. Now, you know where it is at, and that it does exist. I didn't think you were heading that way, nor was I recommending it for vacation.

And, if Peter hadn't deleted all of Ringodiego's posts about two months ago, you'd know that Galecito has a fairly balanced view about the pros and cons of security in Colombia. (No direct run-ins with the cons, personally)

Yep; I've been on the receiving end of crime in America, but as others are quick to point out here: THIS SITE IS ABOUT COLOMBIA.

I am one of the first ones here to proclaim my peaceful comings and goings in Colombia, so far. I also know that in the next unexpecting moment, you can think that someone might be going to rip your tonsils out, if you're not cooperative, and maybe even if you are.

And, sometimes your company, knowing that you must maintain your career, sends you into some very precarious places to do business in Colombia, and you barely escape with your life, (too close to the 'crazy ones'.) I know someone quite well who recently had this very natured experience, too close to the ELN, in Samaniego.

In America, you are sent into those types of places for your work, if you are a cop, or the National guard, or to another place, if you are a soldier. A DISTINCT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE USA AND COLOMBIA, BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENCES IN GENERAL ECONOMICS, AND THE WILL TO LIVE A BETTER LIFE.

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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podborski says on Nov 22, 2006, 08:32:

I could not care less if some thieves kill each other, saves the cost of trials, jail etc.

Rubito, I think somewhere you mentioned Japan and how things work there. It's pretty damn interesting, not sure if I agree with it or not, but here's what they do:

First, there are almost no guns. It is REALLY hard to get a gun illegally, but of course it can be done. Penalties for having a gun are severe.

Second, the government, police and mafia all work together and have agreements where the police basically say to the mafia: We'll leave you alone to run your gambling, prostitution, loan sharking etc. businesses, as long as no one gets seriously hurt.

But every once in a while you will hear of a shoot-out in a back alley in shinjuku, which is likely 2 opposing yakuza gangs showing off a bit and trying to maintain their tough guy images, but no one ever gets killed of course.

Once an old lady was hit by a ricochet and was hurt, so the police made the gangs bring in the 2 guys responsible. The 2 guys apologized to the lady (photos of them bowing to her while in her hospital bed were in the paper) and they paid her off (publicly acknowledged) with a few hundred thousand dollars and everybody was happy.

I don´t know if you remember that Steven Seagal dork, he used to brag about hanging around shinjuku (like the vegas of japan) picking fights with yakuza. Big fucking deal! I´d fight those guys and I'm a total wimp.

They really are like total cartoons, they strut around at midnight wearing dark sunglasses, loud sports jackets, cigarettes hanging from their lips, trying to look tough, and they are soooo obvious.

And it's true the gangs have their names and addresses in the local phone book, I looked one of them up to see if it was true.

Anyway, it just confirms my belief that drugs, prostitution and gambling should be legalized. I am convinced violent crime would go way down.

A lot of colombianos (but not all of course) I spoke to also believed drugs should be legalized. They see it as america's problem and I totally agree.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 22, 2006, 12:10:

I live in an small town which is very safe, but my shopping I do it in another which is bigger this town it used to be safe when i came to the UK but not anymore, we have been having lots of Eastern Europeans immigrants and they have been bringing crime with them unfortunately, a few days ago I was shopping in one of the big supermarkets here , when I left the cashier I noticed a tall guy standing near the cashiers or check out he didn't look English that's why I noticed him and he was standing there doing nothing, I pushed my trolley towards the lift, the shop has an underground car park , as I was waiting for the lift to open there was another guy in the opposite lift, I noticed that he pressed the Button of his lift as soon as he saw me coming, so his lift open first then the guy that was standing by the check out rushed toward it and sight to me to go there and another weird guy with a cap came and put quick his cigar down and went into the lift too , the three of them were there, with no shopping bags nothing, they waited a bit and the tall guy pop his head out of the lift and sight again to me to come in, i declined i pretend i was talking on my mobile phone, And waited and waited i didn't go down until I was sure their were gone , the carpark is dark and have no security so i didn't risky. Where they going to robbed me? I don't know, but “mi malicia indigena talvez me salvo�. Everything went so fast but i am glad i trusted my Instinct

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MacGringo says on Nov 22, 2006, 12:53:

Kat, where do you live in the UK?
I think many people think that the UK is safe, but, like someone said there is crime everywhere. Its starting to get worse too, just need to watch the news and see that the guncrimes and number of guns getting picked up in police raids is rising, and hopefully not sounding racist is only going to get worse with the mass amount of legal and illegal Eastern European immigrants. The rising number of immigrants being allowed to flood into the UK now, I think will spark 2 types of violence or 2 reasons for violence. Maybe some kind of gangs or organised crime with the Eastern Europeans or rising cases of violence against Eastern Europeans by UK citizens due to the amount of UK taxpayers money being shelled out to house and support the immigrants.
Last year, using A + E hospital statistics Glasgow was the worst city in Europe for knife crimes. Glasgow has always had this history with knife crime.
Although I don't condone any type of violent crime and it's never really acceptable. One difference is that the majority of crime you hear about in Colombia or other poor countries is due to poverty, not acceptable but they have a reason.
Whereas in the UK (and probably in many other countries in the world) I have heard of and known many people who have been subject to extreme violence and assaults by groups of youths just for laughs.
My own brother was seriously assasulted and found unconscious behind a super market with his ankles broken, nose broken, serious head injuries and strange round bruises all over his back which were later found to be human bites causing him to have to endure the wait of testing for all blood transmittable diseases.
All because he allegedley looked the wrong way at someone as he walked past in the street.
Bad shit can and will happen in any place. Sometimes it's for a personal reason and others it's not. Sometimes it's through poverty, desperation or dependancy. Sometimes the person will deserve it and other times they are just in the wrong place in the wrong time, but violent crime is everywhere.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 22, 2006, 13:17:

Mc Gringo since the Eastern Europeans arrive near where I live thing got worst, we never have signs in their language in the shop now we have saying shoplifter would be prosecuted, because there have been lots of theft in the shop, and crimes. As you said is not about being racist, but some of them are taking advantage of the British system here and if the UK don't do something quick they are going have a big trouble ahead no wonder the BNP is getting lots of supporters.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 22, 2006, 13:19:

Penthouse Forum Kat1, are you sure you don't write for Penthouse Forum...

"I live in an small town which is very safe, but my shopping I do it in another which is bigger this town it used to be safe when i came to the UK but not anymore, we have been having lots of Eastern Europeans immigrants and they have been bringing crime with them unfortunately, a few days ago I was shopping in one of the big supermarkets here , when I left the cashier I noticed a tall guy standing near the cashiers or check out he didn't look English that's why I noticed him and he was standing there doing nothing, I pushed my trolley towards the lift, the shop has an underground car park , as I was waiting for the lift to open there was another guy in the opposite lift, I noticed that he pressed the Button of his lift as soon as he saw me coming, so his lift open first then the guy that was standing by the check out rushed toward it and sight to me to go there and another weird guy with a cap came and put quick his cigar down and went into the lift too , the three of them were there, with no shopping bags nothing, they waited a bit and the tall guy pop his head out of the lift and sight again to me to come in..."

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Nov 22, 2006, 13:37:

LOL Mr hollywood a foursome in a lift? uhmm now you got me thinking... damm did i loose the oportunity? :P

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MacGringo says on Nov 22, 2006, 14:02:

You've got a reason there Kat. Where I am it isn't too bad a few Polish and Lithuanians. I have been told that they are nice people and they are hard workers but I think it will be the likes of London, Birmingham and the bigger English cities that will see majority of any trouble as this is more likely where all the illegal immigrants will flock too.
I don't mind any person, from any country coming to UK and working as long as they go through the correct channels and pay their taxes like everyone else. It's the ones that turn up illegally and start robbing etc or claim asylum and then the government give them everything, the same as they give UK citizens who have paid taxes all their lives. This is wrong.
I have friends who have been waiting on council lists to get council rentable property for years , but then asylum seekers come along, next thing you know , they are set up in a council flat or house, fully decorated, new carpets, the lot, it's no wonder a lot of UK citizens are getting pissed off.

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gringolondinense says on Nov 23, 2006, 06:21:

hey dont blame to people mac.g. ..if the government hand out houses and money to these people, they are gonna take it. If I was desparate I would do the same thing as them and come and claim asylum. I mean if all your mates and family have come over and got what they wanted it would be a big carrot.

The government have put in place rules so that people from the "new" european countries can work here if they are "self-employed". Anyone can claim to be self-employed, they might as well just let anyone work here.

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kalder says on Nov 23, 2006, 08:07:

No fan at all... I'm no fan of the government's insane immigration policies (or lack of them) but, personally, I've found the Poles and Lithuanians to be a hardworking, decent bunch. If I was living on a council estate, I'd much, much rather have them as my neighbours than any indigenous pack of hoody-wearing, knife-wielding, dole-sponging chavs, neds or spides.
I'm truly sorry about your brother MacGringo. This assaulting people for the sheer sh*tty joy of it is Britain's curse. 'Just for laughs' as you say. Scumbags.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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gringolondinense says on Nov 23, 2006, 08:50:

hey Kat I just read your bit..glad you got out of that one. Im not sure what those guys wanted. Hopefully they only wanted to rob you once you were in the lift but Im not too sure because having 3 guys rob you here is pretty unusual. Obviously its pre-meditated which is even more creepy. Glad youre ok!!

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cowboysteve says on Nov 26, 2006, 20:19:

TO MR. HOLLYWOOD I MIGHT BE A FOOL BUT I WILL NOT LET SOME PUNK TAKE ANY THING FROM MY LIVE BODY, AS LONG AS WE LET THESE COWARDS TAKE WHAT THEY WANT THEY KEEP ON TAKEN. ITS TIME TO FIGHT BACK, I LIVE PART TIME IN COLOMBIA LOVE THE PEOPLE BUT NOT THE PUNKS, YES I MIGHT BE TARGET,BUT IN THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, NOT TO MUCH TROUBLE, I RECALL ONE NIGHT MY WIFE AND I WAS HAVEING DINNER SHE NOTICE 2 PUNKS NEAR OUR AUTO, ACROSS THE STREET IN THE SHADOWS AND WHEN GOT READY TO LEAVE. MY WIFE SAID LETS DON'T GO NOW BECAUSE THOSE MEN MIGHT TRY TO ROB US, I WALL ACROSS THE STREET RIGHT AT THEM AND I TOLD HER HELL I MIGHT WANT TO ROB THEM. MUCH AS THIS DINNER COAST, COULD USE THE EXTRA CASH, TO HELL WITH THE BASTARD! AND THAT'T WHERE I'LL SEND THEM IF THEY WANT GO AT ME. VIETNAM VET.

YES IAM A GRINGO HAVE LIVE OFF AND ON IN COLOMBIA FOR EIGHT YEARS IAM LOOKING FOR SOMEONE THAT WOULD LIKE TO GO INTO BUS. SHIPING CARS FROM USA TO CALI THERE IS A BIG PROFIT MAR. ON USED SMALL 4X4 IF INTERESTED CONTACT. ME THANK YOU. STEVE

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goin_south says on Nov 26, 2006, 22:29:

okay, Sargent Hulka I think they forgot to say that this guy had 'diamonds on the soles of his shoes'.

"Tengo mucha compasión para...the robbers in Colombia ."

Ciao! Gustav. Bienvenitos, Ike.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 26, 2006, 22:34:

we have the same type of problems with Eastern Europeans, especially Russians and Estonians here in Sweden. Also in Finland that has been plagued by Russian and Estonian prostitution since the opening of the borders. Here in Stockholm it's from all over from Estonia to Rumania and former Yugoslavia that has been exporting their criminal organozations to Scandinavian countries; lots of free-lancing too.

In Finland people are locking their doors deep in the country and take notice of cars with Russian licence plates that circulate on grassy country roads looking for houses with nobody home...sometimes they pull in in people's driveways at isolated places only to drive away really fast if somebody opens the door or looks out of the window.

Cheers,
Desi


«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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