Bomb in Bogota

Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 21, 2006, 23:03:

Isn't that the same incident we've been discussing at length in "Freedom Edges Closer..." thread? Or has there been yet another car bomb in Bogotá?

Cheers,
Desi

«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

billyb says on Oct 22, 2006, 00:09:

Also heard a Polo Lib politician.. blame the Colombian Army for it. Even though I fervently believe and fervently hope the CO army is not involved, all these dishonorable acts commited lately by some very few (want to reitarate, very few) members of the armed forces, it makes hard to dismiss this guy's accusations for the leftist rantings that they are.

BillyB

Sr Tertius says on Oct 22, 2006, 07:49:

Billyb Could you specify who made this accusations? It would be ironic that PDA politicians would ask to avoid rushed accusations, only to make their own. Maybe you misread some opinions about not ruling out the military or anyone else as a posible culprit. Watch out for those manufactured "leftist rantings."

If you want to read "rantings," check Anncol. They are, fortunately, not related to PDA.

I think Mr. H is referring to the same incident we've been discussing in the thread mentioned by Desideria.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Tinto (Moderator) says on Oct 22, 2006, 08:23:

Did they find the driver? I thought I read that the driver was wearing what looked like a genuine military uniform? Did he blow himself up or did he park his truck bomb and escape by foot?

Sr Tertius says on Oct 22, 2006, 08:37:

As far as I know He is on the loose. He parked the car and left the premises. He had a fake batch/ID. I saw a drawn description recently in El Tiempo.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

juancegomez says on Oct 22, 2006, 12:08:

It's the same incident Maybe it just wasn't clear that the other thread also included a discussion about it. No big deal, I thik.

Sr Tertius:

The PDA guy that apparently made the most rushed remarks was Jaime Dussán, on the radio, if I recall correctly. I think that his comment was also mentioned on the website for Cali's "El País" one or two days ago.

Both Carlos Gaviria and, to a lesser extent, Gustavo Petro have been more cautious about this particular case.

Mr. Hollywood says on Oct 22, 2006, 13:44:

I didn't realize this was being discussed elsewhere. Anyway, a big car bomb intendend for the commander of the Colombian army probably deserves its own thread.

The piece I read was that the FARC had issued a statement via one of its public outlets that the US was behind the attack. Now, if someone had said Paras or even a rival force (such as, say, the Colombian police, who've had a bunch of their own guys killed by corrupt army units) had done such a thing it wouldn't be so ridiculous, but to say the US government, even the worst elements of it, would try to blow up the commander of the Colombian army just to torpedo FARC peace talks, is preposterous. I think it's a sign of how far out in the jungle the FARC is living that they think theories like that have traction.

Sr Tertius says on Oct 22, 2006, 13:47:

Jaime Dussan's opinion http://www.lafm.com.co/audiosource.php3?pl=jaimeyarmando

Initially, he is not as clear as he could, but then he clarifies. First, he suggests that an insider in the military *must* have been participant to this attack. When asked to confirm his opinion, he retracts, slightly, to say that a *plausible hypothesis* is that some people inside the military that are not interested in advancing a peace process, *may* have been involved in the attack.

This is NOT the same as blaming the Army. In fact, Senator Dussan is clear to indicate that such internal struggle may be due to the strong pressure for positive results from the government--as recent evidence suggests.

I find it most annoying when people invent serious (but vague) accusations without a thread of evidence. I know that in the US this is a regular practice in entertainment "shock" journalism (a la Coulter or O'Reilly), but in Colombia--as juance may know very well--that kind of bullshit, when made by people from a tall soapbox, many times ends up in somebody's death or exile. It's no funny matter, no matter how small your soapbox is. It is, at best, distasteful. Unless you are accusing an "armed actor," then you can say whatever (as the government says about FARC and viceversa): They have guns to defend themselves. Many more guns than a senator has.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

FredGarvin says on Oct 24, 2006, 06:21:

Or... "I find it most annoying when people invent serious (but vague) accusations without a thread of evidence. I know that in the US this is a regular practice in entertainment "shock" journalism (a la Coulter or O'Reilly), "

You mean similiar to Newsweek's accusations of Guantanamo gaurds flushing a prisoner's Koran down the toilet? I think I remember that little fabricated story caused some deaths (9 of them). And this was not an editorial, it was reported as facts -- Perhaps that should be expected when the "reporter" uses statements made by a detainee...

...O'Reilly may opine, as well as Coulter, but that is exactly what they are -- opinion pieces.

I think a better argument would be that reporting the facts shouldn't consume ANYONE -- partisanship across the spectrum has engulfed and influenced just about everything that makes the "news". We simpletons just need to take everything in with a grain of salt, along with a healthy dose of our own fact-finding.

FG

mcraig says on Oct 24, 2006, 10:58:

Knew this was going to happen as soon as my plans to colombia are set. I am headed to colombia people are going to start blowing crap up again my luck. I can't go anywhere without something happening just bad luck., Been arrested in Mexico an england for drunk stupid crap now headed to colombia probaly going to get my butt blown up . I can see it now on my tombstone went to have some extensive dental work done an was blown up. (But his new crowns an bridges still looked nice after explosion. LOL

Sr Tertius says on Oct 30, 2006, 17:38:

Editorials, opinion and facts I'm not familiar with the Newsweek story, but to the extent that it was fabricated it falls within the category of "annoying made up vague quasi-urban myths that in the US may be funny, but in Colombia are tasteless or (coming from certain people) outright dangerous."

Editorials, by the way, also refer to facts. Reporters, editorialists, scientists, and anyone who deems him/herself an honest person should stick to the facts, whether they are informed by a detainee or by the Pope. The key is to doublecheck, or at least cite your source.

I don't think that anyone has a license to bullshit under the pretext that it is "just my opinion." Coulter can do it, I guess, because she is a parody. In Colombia it was "the opinion" of one vice-president that certain people in a labor union were working for the insurgency... and then they appeared dead. Should we just take his "opinion" with just a pinch of salt?

We do indeed have to take everything with some healthy skepticism and figure things out from multiple sources. But we also have to call bullshit when we see it... and I saw this one from a mile away.

P.S. The style of bullshit opiners is coming to Colombia. I mean, they've always existed but nobody would take them seriously because they were just a few losers. But one of them became Minister of the Interior a few years ago, and the more recent one is the closest advisor to the president. Fortunately, the recent stupidities that Jose Obdulio said in El Tiempo were strongly replied by virtually every columnist that paid attention and across the political spectrum. Unfortunately, some people chose to respond with his own style (http://www.elespectador.com/elespectador/Secciones/Detalles.aspx?idNoticia=1572&idSeccion=25). Poor choice... in my opinion.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

juancegomez says on Oct 31, 2006, 09:09:

Sr Tertius: You're right about the Dussan matter. It was BS, but it wasn't an entirely fabricated kind of BS. The BS lies in that the charge didn't take into account the rest of his actual words about the matter. In other words, his remarks were taken out of context, something which may be dangerous but, unfortunately, is inherent to how the press works here and in almost all countries in the world.

"In Colombia it was "the opinion" of one vice-president that certain people in a labor union were working for the insurgency... and then they appeared dead. Should we just take his "opinion" with just a pinch of salt?"

As horrible and rejectable as those remarks and their deaths may be, I don't think that the vice-president was the first person to hold such opinions (which I assume to be incorrect until proven otherwise), or that those deaths had to be directly linked only to what he said and completely unrelated to any previously existing problems and threats from plenty of other sources that would be more directly interested in harming them, even if the vice-president had kept his mouth shut. His remarks were improper, insulting even, but it's almost impossible to know whether they made a difference.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of threats and attacks against labor union people occur without anybody in government ever referring to the would be victims. I don't see how the real effects of those remarks can be accurately measured, since there is almost no way to confirm whether they actually made a difference, since far too many threats and death still happen all the time.

In essence, I do agree that such remarks shouldn't be made, yes, they are careless, insulting and potentially dangerous, but I wouldn't automatically establish a direct "cause and effect" relationship between them and absolutely anything else that happens later. It is, however, better to reduce any and all possible dangeorus effects by avoiding BS charges in the first place.

Btw, as for the other case, I hold pretty much the same opinions about Mr. Gaviria's article and Mr. Zuleta's response. Two wrongs don't make a right.

juancegomez says on Nov 26, 2006, 17:04:

rufus That news you posted is about an entirely different issue, not even the same incident.