Bogota ranked 210 out of 215 for safety

juanalejo says on Mar 14, 2005, 16:26:

Sensasionalism Regardless of what the outcome might mean, and in which I absolutelly do not agree, it is sensasionalism by those who insist on portraying the image they want what really harms the country. UC has almost copied the article posted by Mercer except for the fact that he has suddenly included the words Bogota, Colombia on to the following extract of the article. "The Iraqi capital, Baghdad, was ranked the world's least safe city, followed by Abidjan, Ivory Coast; Bangui, Central African Republic; the Nigerian cities of Port Harcourt and Lagos; and Bogota, Colombia." Although he has not quoted them, he has manipulated the information by adding things that have been said to things he wants to portray. Then we wonder why we have a bad reputation, becuase when Bogotá is ranked under Caracas which has 133 murders per 100.000 in sharp contrast to Bogotá with 21.6, it is because there are too many people trying to manipulate the information to convey the bad image they are interested in showing around. Create fame and go to sleep, we have a saying in Colombia, and unfortunatelly many feel pleasure from this fame.

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platano says on Mar 14, 2005, 17:13:

Bogota is getting unfair coverage By changing mayorship back and forth between Enrique Peñalosa and Antanus Mockus Bogotá has changed remarkably for the better.

Someone years ago said to me that Mockus should not become the mayor of Bogotá and their reasoning was this: "Mockus is not an experienced politician. He doesn't even know how to steal!"

I had to laugh... and vote for Mockus.

You might be interested in reading this article as well: "A Tale of Two Mayors The improbable story of how Bogota, Colombia, became somewhere you might actually want to live
By Lisa Jones
04 Apr 2002 Grist Magazine: Environmental News and Commentary

http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2002/04/04/of/

I am a big Mockus fan and Bogotá is much better off because of his and Enrique's mayoral work.

Plátano

plátano

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dwmte says on Mar 14, 2005, 17:20:

don juan.... years ago, before i ventured into colombia, all i knew is that the coke came from there, pablo e. was alive and well, and that lots of coffee came from there.

it wasn't until i found myself living at the intercontinental hotel in poblado, in 1989 and pablo bombed the east wing of the hotel that i began to develop an opinion of colombia. that was just the beginning. about a week or so later, i witnessed a chap being murdered in downtown medellin not far from the nutibara hotel. after that, it was the bombings, shootings, and bodies in rio medellin that began to formulate opinions about the place. not articles in magazines or news on the tube.

dw

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Sam Salmon says on Mar 14, 2005, 19:24:

Toronto? The recent spate of gun murders and kidnappings of the most horrific variety have made Toronto something of a pariah among domestic tourists.
Hit hard by the SARS epidemic Toronto's tourism industry is busy cranking out 'Good News' stories and I see some Swiss have swallowed them








' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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kernow62 says on Mar 14, 2005, 19:32:

We must remember these people have probably never visited Colombia. If they asked people who lived in the various cities around the world what they liked and didn't like about their cities, what concerns they had, and why they liked or didn't like living there. They would have a clearer picture of the world.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 14, 2005, 21:38:

Here comes the Kernow....again So what? So what if they have not lived in Colombia. That is completely irrelavant. You don't have to live somewhere to objectively conclude how dangerous some place is. In fact, I would go so far as to say that just living in a city teach you nothing about a city.

If one were to use an objective set of criteria and apply them uniformly city by city, that is all that is needed to do to determine how safe a city is.

Kernow, sometimes its easy to catch you.....like not. Question, if we follow your standard, then I suppose someone would have "to live in
Baghdad" to know that this city is the most dangerous city in the world. What am I missing? And the Ivory Coast....you know that place where there is a civil war that has been going on perpetually. The same place where almost everyone literally walk the street with some kind of gun....I suppose you would have to live in the Ivory Coast too.

So...there you go again kernow. If it's Colombia, everything is wonderful. Yea sure. In fact, you live in Orlando...right by that Disney place. I thing you're confusing that place with Colombia.

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kernow62 says on Mar 14, 2005, 22:49:

Gomez I was not talking about simply the safety rating, if you would read my post I was talking about the quality of life rating. Two entirely different but interrelated ratings.

The Mercer study has also a quality of life scale, but if you agree with its findings it simply means that life in the US cities plays second fiddle to those in much of Europe, Canada and Australia. Perhaps they are correct. I don't actually have the full list for quality of life, but I would wager money that Caracas is much lower than Bogotá. Mercer also does a cost of living rating and I am sure if the figures were shared with the forum that Bogotá would be amongst the least expensive cities.

I believe that possibly what pulled down the score for Bogotá in the safety rating is that a potential threat exists because of "political instability" in the region, & corruption. It can't be the murder rate, which is not as bad as other Colombian and many South American cities.

Perhaps someone can provide the complete Mercer quality of life as well as the cost of living ratings so that a more complete picture of the cities can be formed, not just the safety rating or a partial quality of life rating.

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BlondeJamesBond says on Mar 15, 2005, 01:15:

Statistics London 69th in the world, based on criteria such as crime, health, education and transport! - It's nothing short of a joke - Where did they take these stats from - the West End? or did they just leave out everything south of the river?.

It would be lucky to be 69th in Europe let alone the world.

'If one were to use an objective set of criteria and apply them uniformly city by city, that is all that is needed to do to determine how safe a city is' - Gomezman5

'There are lies, damned lies and statistics' - Winston Churchill

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umm says on Mar 15, 2005, 03:17:

I just came back from Vietnam, guess that ranks 347 and Afghanistan 593 in that list.

"while Atlanta had the lowest U.S. ranking at 90." guess thats a typo. It must be 900

UMM

My Forum

N2Aquatix says on Mar 15, 2005, 03:59:

Senseless Violence I live close to Birmingham, AL. I'd have to say that there's almost always at least one murder a day in that town. The funny thing is that most of the murders make little or no sense. People gunning each other down because of a traffic violation or a few harsh words, stuff like that. I think you can probably find danger in any city on the globe if you're looking for it. Likewise, I think you can avoid it also. I found almost everyone I met in Colombia to be quite a bit friendlier than most of the people you'd meet on the street here in the USA. ;-)

Jay

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juanalejo says on Mar 15, 2005, 06:41:

Gringo I agree with you that quality of life can not be measured when the city life is not taken highly into account. I am very sorry but cities like New York, San Francisco, London or Paris will always have a higher quality of life than a place like Houston or Winston Salem just for the fact that my children will have an outlook on the world. That only comes through a global perspective that certain cities offer. Now I would like to know if given a chance to live in Lagos or Bogota which one people would choose, I have been to Lagos and it is an isult to read that for some people the quality of life is close in both cities. It is abysmal in difference no matter if you are rich, middle or poor.

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michaelz says on Mar 15, 2005, 07:01:

"objective" rankings In theory, applying an objective set of standards is a great idea. In practice, its impossible. In many of the cities on the list, crimes are never even reported. In others, they are systematically downgraded to make the cops look better. In Philadelphia (the city nearest to me) there was a scandal a few years ago, many rape cases were systematically downgraded by the cops to simple assault cases so that Philly would look better in national statistics.

In underdeveloped contries, such practices are endemic. Without controls to ensure that crimes are reported accurately and fairly, such lists are nothing but a joke.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 15, 2005, 07:30:

Actually, juanalejo, I disagree with the rankings and I think they are absurd. I did not manipulate anything. They did rank Bogota 210 and Medellin 205 out of 215 cities. Personally I think this is worse than the NG article.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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poco says on Mar 15, 2005, 07:39:

Lists Problem is "ranking". I wouldn't have much of a problem believing this:

Luxembourg ranks number 1 in safety and the rest of the world ranks lower using New York as the base line.

Criteria based on 39 key items? These were the only ones listed. Plus, Kidnapping is not as popular in 2004/5.

Political and social environment (political stability, crime, law enforcement, etc) Colombia is lower than New York.

Economic environment (currency exchange regulations, banking services, etc) Depends on if you have EUROS or Dollars, but lower than New York.

Socio-cultural environment (censorship, limitations on personal freedom, etc)Higher than New York but with a different penalty.

Medical and health considerations (medical supplies and services, infectious diseases, sewage, waste disposal, air pollution, etc). Lower than New York.

Schools and education (standard and availability of schools, etc) Worse than New York.

Public services and transportation (electricity, water, public transport, traffic congestion, etc). Better than New York

Recreation (restaurants, theatres, cinemas, sports and leisure, etc). Worse than New York.

Consumer goods (availability of food/daily consumption items, cars, etc). Worse than New York

Housing (housing, household appliances, furniture, maintenance services, etc) Better than New York.

Natural environment (climate, record of natural disasters). MUCH better than New York.

Was this one of the other 39 key criteria?
Being compared to Disneyland. Ranks higher than New York.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 15, 2005, 08:44:

Utopiacowboy....I'm with you First of all, even though Juanalejo thinks I am clueless as to what happens in Colombia, allow me to add this perspective.

Crime in Colombia is not worse than the report indicates. It is MUCH worse than the report indicates. (sorry jaunalejo) And here is why.

Crime rates are determined in only 1 way..it is based on reportable incidents to law enforcement authorites. That being said, in Colombia, because police are so ineffectual to the point of almost non existant. You can virtually murder someone and get away with it more often than not. The net result is that property crimes are almost never reported to the police. If they are not counted and made part of an official statistic, they will not be reflected in the crime rate

In the US, losses to property of almost any time ussually involve an insured interest. To recover on that loss, You must make a police report. At the same time while not perfect, police department are MUCH more effective at both eliminating crime, and aprehending people who have comitted crime. Additionaly when you report a crime, that report becomes part of the statistics for the crime rate. People will for example report a burglary, or car break-in all the time so that they can recover.

In Colombia, most people don't even have insurable interests. When someone break into their home, and their entire collection of Fania CDs are stolen (all 300) or so, he is out of luck. Insurance, in Colombia, to the extent it is available, is often unaffordable and therefore people just don't carry it. On the other hand, I can't think of anyone with any intelligence in the US, that can't afford a couple hundred dollars a year to insure the contents of their rental apartment for 30,000 dollars, as well as having coverage for liability and related losses If they didn't do so, they would be really stupid.

So now you have a sound reason as to why the crime rate in Colombia is actually hire than it appears. Can anyone think it might be lower.
Maybe Kernow can. Go for it Kernow

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carter says on Mar 15, 2005, 09:00:

Gomezman Do you actually think that all crimes commited are reported to the police in the other cities that rank lower on the list. Or do you think Colombia is the only country in the world with ineffectual police and people without insurance.

When you say that Colombias crime is alot worse than this report indicates, do you really think Bogota should be ranked lower than the African cities and Bagdad? Im not an expert on these places as I´ve never visited but im sure they have plenty of unreported crime as well.

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Albatross says on Mar 15, 2005, 09:09:

Quality Safety and Quality are two very different attributes.

While I concede that cities such as New York, London or Berlin may be less "safe" than most Swiss or Canadian cities, the quality of life is far superior.

I'll take Central Park or The River Thames over Lake Geneva any day... and Toronto ?... I don't think so.

P.S. Except Quebec - Je me souviens...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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kernow62 says on Mar 15, 2005, 10:54:

If anyone would like a more in depth review of how the Mercer Report is weighted and put together, I would be glad to send them the pdf file. It is 25 pages long.

PM your E-mail address if interested.

The reason for the report explains why the results are skewed, Tinto and GIB are not far off the mark.

Also the quality of life rating in some cases differs only slightly from other studies that use a different set of criteria, whilst other cities the difference is night and day.

The pdf file makes interesting reading.

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juanalejo says on Mar 15, 2005, 12:41:

Gomez Have you been to Lagos, or even Caracas, or Sao Paulo lately. The two latter one are still fantastic cities, but crime, kidnapping? On the first one, what can I say. But then again according to you they have fantastic criminal statistics and wonderful police who are on top of everything. How could I forget, it is just Colombia the evil paradise.

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daver says on Mar 15, 2005, 15:00:

What's with all the trash talking aboot my beloved Canada??

Grrrrrr... I'm so mad that I am going to write a stongly worded letter to my MP....

Daver

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 15, 2005, 15:24:

Juanalejo Please don't play those games with me. Because, I am not going to be debating with you or anyone else who takes things out of context.

I never said that Colombia was evil. You did. I am not interested in comparing which city is worse-Caracas, Lagos or San Palo, or the moon

Colombia has huge problems --- live in denial if you want. Just keep telling yourself that it doesn't have a problem and feel better in the proccess of doing so.

But when you put words in my mouth, it is annoying. If you are going to debate, than do so and be intelectually honest in the proccess of doing so.

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juanalejo says on Mar 15, 2005, 15:44:

Gomez I do not live in denial, I live in Colombia quite happily thank you. I know how Colombia works and what is good and what is bad. I am not saying that Colombia is the safest of places, never said it, but I will not agree that it is the most dangerous place on earth because it is not. I am sorry that you can not accept the fact that many people like Colombia, and happen to live a succesful and fulfilling life here. But if you think that you can simply point fingers at the country every time you feel like it, well I am sorry to tell you there are many of us that will stand up and put the facts in the right perspective so that people who are interested in this country do not continue with the doom and gloom view, you and most of the media have casted on the country.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 15, 2005, 22:10:

juanalejo- You have a strang perspective on things You do live in denial. And frankly, its because of people that think like you, Colombia is in the position it's in.

And of course, the world media, not the US media, but the world media is all biased against Colombia. Why, nobody knows. Maybe at has something to do with rapant coruption, %50 of the geography in the hands of guerillas who run around terrorizing the countryside., and helping the mafiosos in the drug trade, Kidnappings, and extortion of common people just for the priviledge of allowing them to live. Paramilitaries. Aside from that all is well. Juanalejo, if that is what you call a great country......than I would hate to see what you would call a bad one...Or to put it another way, maybe Colombia is not the most dangerous place to live. But it is certainly one of the most dangerous place. You will look a little silly when you start naming the ones that are more dangerous....Your a real piece of work.

Very sincerely, Mr. Doom and Gloom but honest, G5

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 16, 2005, 01:13:

I don’t agree with gomezman just like Juanalejo my family live happily in Colombia they don’t denied either that is dangerous but they never want to leave it, and for god sake you can compare it with Baghdad or some of the African countries. And sometimes the media has this aptitude against Colombia. They can’t never show nothing positive and don’t tell me there isn’t. With all its defects Colombia is a great country and many people believe me or not live happily there. All this problems are no new to Colombia they always been there we don’t ACCEPT THEM but we got used to them so we find the way to be happy around them and you know you can. When I used to live in Colombia I never worry about guerrillas, pickpockets that much I knew they were around but they never rule my life I never though twice going to the coast by bus or going to town centre at night, but since I move to England funny enough you read all this reports, the news seem much more sensationalist and the picture looks bigger, When I went back to Colombia the first time after being in England for 2 years I was paranoid like a gringo, Until my mum told me !for god sake stop being so paranoid looks like you never live in Colombia before just relax and it was true. Bad thing happened to people some people in Colombia unfortunately have been touch by violence, but no all of them. My dad and brother in law were kidnapped nearly 5 years ago the story is long and complicated, but at the end my mum and dad were granted visa to go and find refuge in the USA and they didn’t accept it. They say they will never leave Colombia they happy there. My mum has a high job with the government in one of the most dangerous part of Colombia, I cant mention it becauses somebody will recognised straight to way and so far after being there 2 and half years she is been fine, no threats, she didn’t want bodyguards, and her job always been peaceful no stress even so the guerrillas are her neighbours the only stress is that the only way get there is by plane and she hate it one day a Black hawk took her. She is retiring soon. So you see you can have a happy life in Colombia.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 16, 2005, 01:40:

Of course Bogota is more dangerous that some of the cities listed in there but is not like we all have to walk with an uzzy on each hand.

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BlondeJamesBond says on Mar 16, 2005, 02:31:

Gomezman5 Not so long ago I recall reading an article about Chicago the city you seem to have found paradise in.

It said there is this black gang called the Gangster Disciples who are controlled by one of the greatest criminal masterminds in recent years from his federal jail cell (his name escapes me).
It said they were terrorising the citizens of Chicago with extremely well organized extortion and drug dealing rackets - anyone not dealing or buying on their turf was a target for the 'chicago lightning' (gunfire) treatment - No-go zones for the Police had been firmly established.
Apparently they were so well organised that it took last minute intervention by the city authorities to stop members of this gang getting elected to local goverment where they would have had a say on Chicago Police budgets.
The overall message of this article was that the Gangster Disciples have Chicago and a large amount of it's citizens by the balls and the problems were only getting worse.

Should I believe this story, dismiss it out of hand as sensationalism, or read between the lines?

By the magazine' account, Chicago should fit in nicely on this list between Bogota and Baghdad

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umm says on Mar 16, 2005, 04:24:

I also think that that statistics up thgere is rigged by the gringos just to make Colombia look bad, although maybe its ok if they put the ranking upside down.
The EEUU is by far more dangerous place but they keep many info under wraps so that the world doesnt know about it.

UMM

My Forum

kernow62 says on Mar 16, 2005, 05:06:

The list is not what it at first seems.

In actuality it is for risk assesment management and insurance of foreign nationals with high paying jobs who are deployed to these cities. The foreign businessmen are typically given a sort of hazardous duty pay based upon such reports.

In light of that perhaps it is a little more accurate.

The way in which it was originally posted, perhaps unintentionally made it appear as if this was a legit safety rating for the ordinary people who actually reside in said city.

As anyone with any intelligence will understand, the risks of a highly paid foreign national who is posted to said city would be far greater in most cases than a local.

That is why many who live in Colombia are incredulous when they see such reports, because they are taken out of the context for which they were designed. What many who live in Bogotá experience, my wife's family included is not very disimilar to what I would experience living in other major cities around the world. When you factor in the wonderful close family life it is not surprising that they choose to live in Bogotá when they have a choice of living in the USA, the UK, Canada or other countries.

The people that get my utmost respect are the famous Colombians who choose to live in Colombia, they know the risks and are willing to show solidarity and remain.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 16, 2005, 06:38:

GIB The majority of this crime that happes in Ciudad Bolivar or lucero alto o la marichuela to name but few are revenge or pandilla fighting they don't kill you just because they didn't like your face. If you read the el espacio or some of this newspaper always said revenge for a woman or something and just look at the nicknames of some of this people had. I am not saying Bogota is 100% safe but in that areas is going to happen more murdered. and believed me I know a lot about the sur of Bogota specially Kennedy. In colombia if you are poor yes is difficult to climb up the ladder, and that you said if you were poor in Colombia you would it be dead well unless you joing one of this pandillas then yes. otherwise no. and is not that people continuing to live in denial just how can they help? how are you helping may I ask to help to solve this problem.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 07:26:

Kat1-Your own admission is self indicting

"we don’t ACCEPT THEM but we got used to them"

Your words my dear. And that is exactly why Colombia is in the condition it's in today---because of people who think exactly like
YOU!!

What a shame, and a terrible one at that!!!

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 16, 2005, 07:33:

Kat reminds me of my wife. They will list off an entire history of violence and kidnappings that would make your head spin and then end up telling you, no, Colombia is not dangerous. As my wife always says about Medellin, it's "muy tranquilo". Which is why I refer to her as Mrs. Magoo. You guys crack me up. And yes, you're right, in spite of all the violence and mayhem, people do manage to live happy lives there. You gotta hand it to the Colombians.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 07:39:

BlondJamesBond In comparison to any city in Colombia, from a security perspective, yes sir, Chicago is a pradise. If you want me to list the crime rate, starting with murder, I will. But you will look very silly.

Now as to your comment about "terrorising the citizens of Chicago" the city of Chicago, please send me this article. I can say with 100% certainty, that this is not the case. Chicago, like any big city in the US has neighborhoods that are gang infested. They are very few in number, and they generally stay in their neighborhoods to conduct their operations, which consists mostly of the sale of illicit drugs from some place called Colombia. Also, they almost never bother anyone within their neighborhoods that don't bother them. In other words, you can live in an area where gangs have a foothold, and they will even be cordial to you as long as you don't interfere with their business. Gangs comitt violence against rival gangs, NOT against nuetral third parties. That is exactly the mechanism that they use to survive. THEY DON'T TERRORIZE ANYONE. So your information is faulty.

As to the Disciples, they are a local branch out of a gang that is present throughout the country. As far as I know, they are not extorting anyone or any businesses. If you have something that says something to the contrary---present the evidence to me and I will then evalutate it. As far as I know, none of the gangs carry on these activities. I have a feeling that you read something and that you, like a lot of these fools around here, are taking something out of context for the purpose of setting your own agenda..You guys are great at doing this stuff.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 07:55:

What I can't understand is..... Colombian people are still, to this say looking to leave Colombia in huge numbers. I just don't want to hear the silly nonsense about Colombia being this land of paradise where life is so great. It's not.

Just a few weeks ago, my sisters friend went to Cali to hold a recruiting drive at the Hotel Dann to recruit Colombian physical therapists to work in the US. She advertised it in a local Physical Therapy publication. She rented a room thinking maybe 50 would show up. To her surprise over 350 showed up with women coming from as far away as Armenia, Ibague, and Neiva -- just looking for the opportunity to imigrate to the US to work. They were literally begging her to come here to work. They said they would do what ever they needed to do. The problem was tha only 7(SEVEN) were even potential candidates because only seven could speak English, and without English, it is impossible to obtain a license to work as a physical therapist in the US.

My point is, and listen good you dreamers, if life was so great in Colombia, then why would all these women, be willing to leave their lives behind---their culture, their families, their loved ones.....everything to live in a country where life in general is truely better in general. And then there are the Physical Therapists that finally come here and get permanent residencey. What do they do??

Most of them start applying for visas to get their parents to come live here with them. Gee.....I wonder why???? HMmmmmm.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 16, 2005, 08:00:

My wife is a true Colombiana and loves Colombia but her plans upon becoming a citizen? Filing petitions so her mother, brothers and sisters can all come to the US.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 08:27:

Of course UTC...... Become a citizen, and you can bring the all the immediate family over here. It may take some time, but......that's the way it is. All these Colombianos are going to leave their beloved Colombia in a NY minute.

But these goofy people here just amaze me. They just don't seem to be on the same wave length as you and I are on Utopiacowboy. Maybe they ought to switch drugs. Or maybe, they ought to quit whatever they are consuming period!

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kernow62 says on Mar 16, 2005, 08:41:

Thanks GIB. I totally agree, the haves and have nots are two entirely different worlds. It would not be different in other major Latin American cities or for that matter cities in Africa.

The thing that bothered me was that the statistics were taken out of the context for which they were created.

The most weight on the safety survey was given to the political stability in the area. Of course, that make perfect sense when the actual purpose of the survey is to protect foreign investors from too much risk or embassy personel from receiving not enough danger pay.

As for the rest of your post I assume you weren't addressing my post, so I won't comment.

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BlondeJamesBond says on Mar 16, 2005, 08:50:

Gomezman5 A few sincere points from me, my good man.

1- The source of my information was a British FHM (or LOADED, can't remember) from around 2 years ago. None of the words are mine just the things I particularly remembered from the article - I have no interest in Chicago.
Please note the final thing I said 'should I believe this story' - Apparently not - I'll take your word for it, just like I'll take the word of juanalejo, kat1, GIB, and the many other who post here saying that Colombia is not the hell on earth that you appear to make it out to be (appropriate precautions taken of course).

2-*If you want me to list the crime rate, starting with murder, I will. But you will look very silly.*

I'll quote Churchill to you again 'lies, damned lies and statistics' - I'm really not interested

3-*In other words, you can live in an area where gangs have a foothold, and they will even be cordial to you as long as you don't interfere with their business. Gangs comitt violence against rival gangs, NOT against nuetral third parties.*

Wow, you really do learn something new everyday, American gangs sound remarkably civilized - Go onto any Peckham, Harlesden, Bermondsey, Eltham, etc council estate here in London with your 'cordial/neutral' attitude and be prepared for the gang members to leave you with just your boxer shorts if your lucky or a knife in your stomach if you put up a struggle.

4 - *I have a feeling that you read something and that you, like a lot of these fools around here, are taking something out of context for the purpose of setting your own agenda.*

I'll try not to take that personally - I really don't have an agenda other than to learn about a country of which all I really knew before discovering this website was that Pablo Escobar used to live there, you on the other hand seem to be pushing your hatred of your homeland and every negative thing about it in the face of anyone with anything positive to say.

Doesn't make you a fool, but it does make you sound a tad bit angry/bitter.

Cheer up mate

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 16, 2005, 09:09:

GIB
"But you seem to question me as to what I am doing like I have some obligation to do something? I don't! I am not Colombian, if you are then what are you doing?" I live in England and is the country that is giving me money to put food on my plate and is the country that is educating my kids etc, so I have an obligation with it and I'm not British. I do a lot voluntary jobs in here.
Gomezman. when I say used to it doesn't mean I agree or accept them as part of the package . I condone everything what they do, but what I mean is they are not going to ruin or rule my live I am not going to hide or being paranoid or going to places just because of them and it wont stop me going back to Colombia. they would not stop me being happy in Colombia and they haven't stop my family either. maybe my family are on magic mushroom because they are one of the "few" that don't want to leave Colombia They had the opportunity and they didn't want to. no all want to leave Colombia I didnt and I hope to go back soon.
YEs maybe i am on drugs too

Maybe kernow is right Gomezman maybe you are puerto rican

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 16, 2005, 09:16:

The magic mushroom! You are too funny, Kat.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 09:24:

Blondjames FHM???? FHM? Are you kidding???? That is hillarious!!

You want to cite "For Him Magazine", a soft porn magazine, a magazine that I proudly subscribe to, (the American version--because the one from the UK is too expnsive)as source about gang activity in Chicago.
Now I have heard everything. By the way, Maxim is better than FHM.

If you don't believe statistics, than what do you believe in? Besides, I am no fan of Churchill, although he was much better than
Neville Chamberlain

I can't speak about gang activity in London. I can speak about it with authority in this country. One of the first jobs I had out of law school was working with the public defender's office. I had to defend them. And not to far after that, I dated a former Latin Queen.
So there is not anything that you can tell me about gangs in the US---I'll stand on what I said.

Naive...me? No, I will stand on what I said. I love Colombia. It is my homeland. But I know whats happening there and you like other make comments that are self indicting. By your own admission, until recently, apart from Pablo Escobar living there, you knew nothing about Colombia. So now, I guess you are truly an expert on all aspects of Colombia, is that correct????

Well James, I am no "Johnny Come Lately". I have been writing and publisishing my articles about the situation in Colombia for 7 years. I have also served as a guest speaker (twice) on a radio program here in Chicago. If you Google my real name, you would be very suprised.
I speak from the heart, and I speak the truth. I don't sugar coat a situation. I don't pretend that massive problems don't exist. And it bother me to no end that people like yourself, who no next to nothing about the internal problems of the country (comparatively speaking) can come on here and make these utterly absurd statements about how safe and happy the people of Colombia are. That my friend is dillusional thinking at best.

Worse yet, it is because of people like you and Juanalejo, and Kat1, that Colombia's situation will never improve. I will give you a saying and I will attribute it to noone.

"The first step toward resolving any problem is to acknowledge the existance of the problem in the first place."

May you now start at step 1

Peace.......nothing personal........and try Maxim. There is a British version too!!

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 09:28:

BTW It's not my spelling...it's my typing!!

Maybe I should just add that line to all my long posts that I type a gazillion miles an hour. I have to do so until Peter find a way to prevent people from "timing out" and losing all that they typed.

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ColombianoX says on Mar 16, 2005, 09:45:

"you on the other hand seem to be pushing your hatred of your homeland and every negative thing about it in the face of anyone with anything positive to say."

Gomezman,

I agree with BlondeJamesBond. Just when you were mellowing out, you seem to sink back to your ANTI-COLOMBIAN attitude?! Come one Gomezman, be nice. I have lots of family who live happily in Colombia and they would never, I mean NEVER, leave it to come to the US or anywhere else. Some of them have already lived here in the USA but decided that for them, there's nothing like living in Colombia, so they moved back. Oh, and they are not rich, so don't even go there.


Don't you understand that there are colombians who actually enjoy living among their own people and their own culture? Many don't want to live in some strange land where they'll be looked down upon because of their nationality and where they don't speak the language!


Oh, and you'll NEVER hear me say anything about "Getting used to the problems but accepting them". To me that is a pathetic, third world mentality, I'd say that it's time to kick some ass!!


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:07:

I knew this one was comming........ any way I better leave this post, cos in the next post of Gomezman I am sure he will say I am a member of the farc
chao

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:38:

Damn it ColX....you caught me!! I was wondering when you were going to appear. Where have you been?
Hey, you know what, I really like your above post. And you know what, I agree with everything in your posting. I even like the way you are mellowing out as to how you deal with me. Instead of attacking me, and taking things out of context, you use diplomacy and remind me of how many people are happy in spite of the situation.

You know something ColX, there is a difference between saying things are not good here, and we have many problems but we make the best of things and live our lives happily mong our friends an family, and saying hey, things are not that bad here, we're all happy. You have learned that find line difference, and I also think you have learned a lot about me, and how to handle me when I get carried away. That's what frienships are about. It's hard to jump on someone that you basically like.

Most of all, and you picked up this point head on, is the stupied line about accepting the problems. I'm sorry but that one just drove me ballistic. My BP had to go through the roof. Acceptance is a non issue for me. Kicking ass is a great idea. The FARC and their mafioso friend are terrorinst organizations---and NOTHING LESS!!!!! You and I know it, and so does Uribe. Now that you have Mr. Miguel Rodriguez Orejuela, in your beautiful sunny South Florida, where I here they had to acutually had to close I95 for quite a distance to insure his security so that he can face justice here, we can continue to do the same with the likes of him and his ilk..........

Just keep posting those good points about Colombia...I may not post anything, but I read them all!

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BlondeJamesBond says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:39:

Gomezman5 *So now, I guess you are truly an expert on all aspects of Colombia, is that correct????*

You sound like one of my old school teachers - I am here to learn (as stated above) I make a comment and suddenly 'oh your an expert now are you' is the sneering reply - No, I am no authority on Colombia is the answer to your question, not even close, I am commenting using knowledge gained thus far.

*So there is not anything that you can tell me about gangs in the US*

I wouldn't dream of it and I don't recall saying FHM is the world authority on gang violence in Chicago, you could justifiably call me an idiot if I did, I knew full well that it was sensationalist rubbish, made a good story, but I am able to read between the lines, just like I'm prepared to listen to the other side of the story from people who tell me that Colombia has many wonderful things to offer.
I'll tell you, uptown Bogota sounds a helluva lot nicer than the dump of an area I live in in London.

BTW - what on earth is a 'Latin Queen' sounds like a hispanic transvestite to me!


*Worse yet, it is because of people like you and Juanalejo, and Kat1, that Colombia's situation will never improve.*

That, my friend, is UTTER bollocks, it is going to be people like me and them who relay positive experiences and stories about Colombia that can start trying to change the ignorant mindset of people who view it as cocaine nation, a place where you will be murdered the instant you leave the airport.

Infact I would venture to suggest that it is indeed people like you who will keep your country down, you would probably be quite satisfied if my only image of your country was that of Pablo Escobar, cocaine, drug cartels and rebels as it serves your negative opinion of the place.

The BIG difference between you and GIB (who you ommitted from my above quote) is that he offers valuable constructive criticism - yours does seem to be on the whole anti-colombia propaganda - Has anyone in Colombia met a gringo from Chicago? With G5 on the airwaves you'll be lucky if you do, they must be terrified of the place!

*If you don't believe statistics, than what do you believe in?*
I believe in listening to people with real life experiences, statistics are the biggest con going and can prove whatever you want them to prove. I also believe in taking the occasional risk - there's no point in living if you can't feel alive!

You just sound like a 'glass half-empty' kinda guy - you've got your viewpoint, you stick to it and fairplay to you for that, but for me problems or not Colombia has a lot to offer, when I finally get there I'll think of you enjoying Luxemborg - statistically very safe don't you know.

Oh BTW Maxim UK has gone downhill recently, funnily enough I picked up a copy yesterday and it was crap.

Peace Amigo

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:46:

Kat1 Why is it that you, Juanalejo, and BlondJamesBond, have this habit of putting words in my mouth (hand)?

This is very annoying, and in the end, does nothing to stimulate true intellectual debate.

Your assertion that I am going to say that you are a member of the FARC, is utterly rediculous, and lacks any basis what so ever. May I ask however, since it was illogical for you to make that accusation, is there a guilty consious within you in that it causes you to feel that you need to disclose something?

Just because I have said that you are in a state of denial as to the extent of problems in our country, it does not in any way whatsoever follow, that I will acuse you of being a member of the FARC. I can't believe that even people that sympathize with your position as opposed to mine would agree that it would. In the end, you only make yourself look bad. If I had a reasonable basis to conclude that you were a member of the FARC, which I don't, I would have made that accusation a lonh time ago.

Considering the above, you might want to rethink your last post........might you not????

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:50:

A minor point "When people are killed here and the news doesn't mention it why would people report a gun in their face and a robbery?", GIB

On any given day in big cities in the US like Miami, Washington D.C., NYC or LA, numerous murders occur and they only make the news if it's either really grotesque, dramatic or involves a celeb.

Yet, still, many people continue to report crimes to the police because they hope and feel that the cops might do something to help out. It has nothing to do with expecting their victimization to appear in the media.

I can't really speak to whether people here in Bogota report a lot of the crimes that occur or not, but I simply don't think it's fair to judge that by the reporting of crimes in the paper or TV news.

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carter says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:55:

Gomezman I live hear and Im happy. Last night I joked with my neighbours that I would take them all back home with me. they laughed and said just for a holiday. Most of my friends are happy here some are having trouble finding work, others are jealous of my travelling and a few of my friends here would like to move to New Zealand to work in adventure tourism. It seems to me that many Colombians are happy in Colombia.

It seems from your posts that many of the Colombians around you in the states are happy there and we all know many Colombians who want to head to the US to work. No one argues that some Colombians would prefer to live in other countries.

But your posts suggest that no one is happy here. You hate people talking of Colombia as a paradise, Im sorry Gomez but for me it is. It seems the one thing you can't except is some people are happy here. Why can't you except that fact? Because you were miserable here you want everyone to be miserable. You're like the kid who quit the football game and wants to take the ball with him, so that no one else can enjoy themselves.

Some of us may have only lived here for a few years and yes we are not experts on the history of Colombian problems (we don't claim to be, we write on PBH not the Post). But living amongst them it is possible for us to learn and understand to some degree, the problems are changing here, from what I hear 7 years ago was alot different. i wonder if your speeches and articles are based on the Colombia of today or from when you lived here. When you write an article how do you research it, do you come to Colombia to get the facts or do you get it from the papers, correspondance, grapevine or old stories? Are you disattached now from the current Colombia. Because the one you describe is not the one I live in.

So us dreamers who write nice things about Colombia and apparently know nothing of the internal problems although quite a few of us live here, Volounteer here etc. Those of us who know nothing of happy people in Colombia but walk down the street everyday and are greeted with friendly smiles, share a beer and a joke will continue to write stories that say you can live happily here. No matter how many stats, stories or speeches you rant on the contrary there is one fact that proves you wrong, we are here, we are happy and we have many happy friends.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:56:

BlondJamesBond-------------------- We are going in circles and have about said all on this matter. So may I suggest that we put an end to this (between you and I) before the moderators do. They (either Lionheart or Tinto) will probaly do so.

As to Maxim and FMH, most people don't buy the mags for the stories and jokes anyway.....and I think you know that. The British version of FHM is available at select stores her for about 9 or 10 dollars.
Most people don't by the magazine for that reason. Besides, you can buy 2 or 3 years of Maxim or FHM on Ebay for about 6-10 dollars for the entire 2 or 3 year period. It's a great deal. (The American version only for that price)

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BlondeJamesBond says on Mar 16, 2005, 10:59:

See G5, I will believe someone like carter ahead of a statistic every single day of the week.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 16, 2005, 11:01:

real name So, Gomezman5, what's your real name so we can google those articles. Or feel free to send me a PM if you don't want to post it in public.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 11:13:

Carter.....sorry to inform you I make it my business to follow the events of Colombia just as much as anyone living there. Living there? Do I really have to live there to understand the political enviornment? Pardon me, but where do you get that idea from? I will say this, it's 2005, and when you have even a dial-up commection to the interned (like I do), I can listen to RCN radio, Caracol, and Todelar. I can read El Tiempo, and Semana magazine which I buy in the store, albeit it is the issue from a week earlier because it has to travel from Bogota to Miami and then on to Chicago, and then to the store. Ok, with all that said, i think I have proven that I kind of stay in touch with what is happening in Colombia....in fact, based on what I have written, I probably stay in touch with the happenings in Colombia more than the average Colombian does. I have the time to do so. In Bogota, the average person spend 2 hours a day taking buses just traveling to and from work. This is true even with the Trans-Milenio.

And by the way, welcome to the club of others who like to take cheap shot by putting words in my mouth. If you can ever find any post on here that says that when i live in Colombia I was miserable, send it to me and I will eat it...just for you. In other words...don't make up stories or make illogical conclusions about what I said and did not say. This conduct makes debate impossible.

All I have tried to say here is that while I recognize that people live happily in Colombia. The politcal/violence situation is terrible. Why you can be happy in a country for many reasons, i.e. the presense of family, beautiful women, cheaper cost of living, the landscape/enviornment, to me, security is an important thing. And a person like myself, would not feel nearly as secure in any Colombian city as I do here in Chicago or any other American city and that include Gary, Indiana by the way.

In summary, quality of life and happines is one thing, security is another....and there certainly is not much security in Colombia. Anytime, and I mean anytime, a country has %50 of it's geography in the hands of insurgents, you cannot with any degree of login and commonsense tell me that the country is not in deep trouble.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 11:18:

Mr. Hollywood I thought about that comment after my post. (My comment).

Of course you know I would not reveal my true name on this board, any more than you would. Would You?

That being said, you will simply have to take my word for it or if you want to accuse me of just blowing smoke, you can do that too. But, I think I am at least smart enough to not allow myself into being dared into revealing my true idenity.

Nice Try. Better luck next time

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 11:25:

Hey GIB Congradulations !! You should be happy that people have finally found someone to accuse of being anti Colombia then you?

I think I have inched ahead of you. On the other hand, I have noticed that you have not been quite as outspoken as you used to be when it comes to revealing the situation as it is, as opposed to how people would like it (Colombia to be). I think you need to step it up again a little.

If there is one thing good about all this, is that it's nice to see a bunch of gringos/europeans,New Zelanders, and Aussies out there defending Colombia. They may be somewhat misguided for reasons that only they can explain, but nevertheless, it is interesting

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 16, 2005, 11:47:

Gomezman5 I wasn't trying to out you or ask you to do anything I wouldn't do, I was just curious to read your writings, since it seemed that you wanted us to. I respect your wish for privacy. No worries.

GIB, thanks for explaining your post. I used to think that the crime reported in the paper was the same as the crime actually committed in the USA. Then I lived for a while in a really BAD part of town and realized that a ton of shit goes down that's never heard about outside a 3 block radius, if even that far. I'm sure it's exactly the same here, and the tolerance for violence is probably even higher than in the inner cities and slums of the US.

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carter says on Mar 16, 2005, 12:27:

G5 learn from GIB another good source of info is people who live here (like us) maybe you could even learn more instead of dismissing everything we say.

The themes of your emails have not recognised people live happily here, instead they suggest people fighting to get out of this hell whole with no security.

My main argument against you is that your posts seem to indicate the the report by ranking Bogota 5th last was being over friendly. Have you visited any cities listed below it, which ones should jump above Bogota with there safe streets? Your over negative views of Colombia are what I write against. I know Colombia is dangerous, Im not misguided but from personal experience can I not make a statement that other cities Ive visited for me are more dangerous and therefore think you are wrong to suggest Colombia lower on the list.

Can we not state that we feel safe and happier without being labelled as misguided?

I live in San Gil I feel safe. Their Ive said it, attack me for the fool I am. If I didn't feel safe I would leave. I may not feel as safe as other places Ive been, i definatly feel a lot safer than other places Ive visited. but overall I think the happiness of my life in San Gil out ways the dangers and therefore its safe to say Im staying.


The comment about you being miserable should have ended with a question mark, sorry. Im not saying you were miserable Im just questioning if this is why you have negative views against the country and are against people enjoying themselves here? As far as putting words in your mouth Im not quoting you and I have not used quotation marks, Its more the overall feeling I get from everything you write.

so Im not in the club, but then again the others aren't quoting you either, so maybe its the way you write that leads to us presuming something different than what your point is.

Learn from GIB, he is learning to state the problems of colombia while usually adding postive comments on the people, experiences etc. All your negativity will never win you any friends, I respect people a lot more who are willing to write about both sides. Since GIB started writing postive comments his inbox is full of PM messages from ladies, Don't tell peter but its become a dating website for the old fella. All this loving and he's talking about butterflies.

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ColombianoX says on Mar 16, 2005, 12:43:

"If there is one thing good about all this, is that it's nice to see a bunch of gringos/europeans,New Zelanders, and Aussies out there defending Colombia."

Yes, it's nice to know that we're not so alone in this world after all.


CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 16, 2005, 12:43:

One thing I must comment on is the murder rate in US cities. In San Antonio, last year there were 100 murders which is about 1 every 4 days. Maybe in the bigger cities they are not newsworthy but here they are still on the news.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 15:35:

Carter...... "they suggest people fighting to get out of this hell whole with no security."

I hate to tell you Carter, they are. I would bet my life that there are more people looking to get out of Colombia, then there are people coming to PBH or any other web site for that matter about Col. that are looking to get in. You have to be realistic.

You or nobody else never really did adress the issue I presented about all the Colombian Physical Therapists that would leave in a heart beat to come work here in the US. It's funny, when i make a point of this importance, people just kind of skim over it and decide not to respond.

Carter I am glad for your love of Colombia, and you like living there in spite of all of its problems, but you know what?---go ahead and do so. But DO NOT tell me that Colombia is not dangerous, and that having %50 of the country in the hands of insurgents, that extorsion, which is on the rise by the way, does not exist, that kidnapping is still fairly common place......don't give me this crap that Colombia is not a country with serious, very serious political problems that have cost the country billions of dollars in lost revenue from both tourism and industry. I don't want to hear the blah blah about, how I live here all happy and nice and nothing happens to me or my friends. That my friend is an iresponsible and nonresponsvie answers to the issues that I raise. Colombia, my Colombia, has got a long way to go before I would remove my assesment of the situation.

G5

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Miamigo says on Mar 16, 2005, 15:39:

I don't see Bogota being that I don't see Bogota being that far down on the list either. But then I always see a pattern here in this thing. The pattern is Anti-Americanism. Colombia is seen as a friend to the US so there you go, they are not going to get a break.

Yeah! That's why they ranked Caracas number 193. We all know that Bush and Chavez are practically butt buddies, and Venezuela is not going to get a break.

Try thinking before writing, or don't write anything at all.

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kernow62 says on Mar 16, 2005, 15:54:

Gomez perhaps because nobody thought your post about physical therapists wanting to move to the US was that important.

It is about as important as how may people from the US turned up for the chance to work at Euro Disney in France when it opened. Lots but that didn't mean they were all disatisfied with life in the US, they looked on it as a chance to travel, to live in another country, and if they didn't like it they could bugger off back home.

If you posted a job offer in the US and the job was in Colombia & it paid far more than in the US you might get more than a few takers. Just ask Computer Associates, Microsoft or Intel. It wouldn't mean they were all eager to leave the USA would it?

I agree though that many in Colombia do want to leave, but many want to return also, and many do not want to leave in the first place. Contrary to what many Americans want to believe there are countries that take in a larger amount of immigrants per capita than the US, does this mean they are more desirable places to live?

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daw03 says on Mar 16, 2005, 17:01:

newbie This is my first time on this site and I have read through the discussion on safety. From my standpoint, I am more interested in the crime rates in the various cities. I have plans to go to Cartagena because it has been described as a safe spot in the midst of a lot of unsafe spots. It would help new travelers to Columbia such as myself to know which specific cities in Columbia are safest. I don't need to travel the entire country. Creating a general paranoia about the entire country may not be accurate as there are most likely some places that are safer than others. Any comments on this, and jCartagena in particular, would be much appreciated.

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poco says on Mar 16, 2005, 17:17:

Low Ranking NOT deserved. Found this link searching the net for TRUTH an oxymoron if there ever was one.

Everyone has an agenda. It can be as simple as selling books others "information" (their version to fit their agenda).

This site is unusual. No big agenda, might be a subdomain someone “forgot about”. The basic name can be linked to a language study site,, funny Spanish was not one of the languages specified. As usual, things are OLD,, facts gathered in 1999. The safety issues talked about are “better” in 2005? Still, many things apply to the current status of Colombia.

Contained on this page will be observations about:
Religious groups, The church in Society, Freedom of Religion, Ethnic Groups, Human Rights, Children, People with Disabilities, Minorities, Holidays, Cultural Terms and yes,, even food. In summary, about everything that has been asked on this site in the last few weeks.

Click for link

There is one other link on the page Colombia Basic Facts. Don't go to sleep reading this.

Finding recent published articles by PHD's supporting my Disneyland theory is diffucult.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kernow62 says on Mar 16, 2005, 18:15:

How can anyone take a site seriously that doesn't include the pagan religion. It is beyond me.

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umm says on Mar 16, 2005, 18:50:

you know, a former girlfriend of mine got in her mind that she wants to move from Medallo to L.A. I recommended her not to do that. Its just too dangerous in L.A. I said to her: if she wants to get robbed or killed then she can go, but better stay in Medellin. Its much safer.

UMM

My Forum

platano says on Mar 16, 2005, 19:02:

Gomezman5, you don't need to type fast.... Gomezman5 wrote:
"... I type a gazillion miles an hour. I have to do so until Peter find a way to prevent people from "timing out" and losing all that they typed."

When you do a long post and think you might get timed out do this: first copy everything you have so lovingly created with such incisive logical thought (you can copy by highlighting and doing a CTRL-C). That way, if by chance you got timed out you have all your beautiful creation on the clipboard. You just log back in and paste and voila!

Plátano

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 16, 2005, 19:21:

You're right, Kernow. Canada takes in more immigrants than the US does on a per capita basis. Not that many Colombians want to put up with the ice and snow though. Hell, I don't.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 22:08:

Kernow,,,,You are so clueless .. Your statement almost does not merit a response. You just don't know what the heck you are talking about. I know you love your Colombian wife, but what the hell, is she that hot or that good that you make statements that utterly make no sense??? I just talked to the girl tonight...the lady who ran the recuriting forum. She is from Cali, and she asked me if I was crazy. And I said what? She responded by saying that these people are really a bunch of "ignorant fools."

In regards to your statement,that the people didn't respond because they did not think it was important....That's nonsense. That statement said it all. It shoots down every bit of sillines that I read here.

The recruiter told me that these Colombian therapists were begging her, crying (as in boo hoo) to get them out of the country so that they could live a better life in the US. It was not just the money, it's everything else that goes with it.Its things like security (oh I forgot..the danger is exagerated).Better quality of life. Less fraud. Less coruption. Free public education....much better than the free education in Colombia.

The funny thing about all this is Kernow, is that even Mexico enjoys a much better standard of living in general than Colomb ia. Yet the Mexicans still keep coming here. So if Mexico is better than Colombia, and the Mexicans keep running here, logic dictates that life here is far better than life is in Colombia. Do me a favor, send me your Email in a private message, so I can get some Colombian people other than the PBH fantasy folks to help you really understand what life is all about in Colombia versus the US. And you think the therapists want to come here just for money?..leave their families, their loved ones, and their culture just for the money.?..really? I will let them give you first hand a little lesson that your wife and PBH fanstasy folks don't give you.

Kernow, if things are so great there, than why don't you and your Colombian wife just move there. I mean, I am Colombian, and I have a right to go there...you don't. I have an interest over there. You don't. The only familial interest you have stems from your wife. I own property there, you probably don't. I just think your crazy for staying in a country where you don't like the politics. You don't like the president. You think Colombia is a better place to live. I just don't know what keeps you here. Look, everyone knows one thing for certain. And that is that actions...always speak louder than words do. In your case, you have made your choice and its not living in Colombia.So that says it all.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 22:19:

Platano....thanks "Things that I lovingly created"....Hmmmmmm??? Your are correct in part. I think I am a pretty loving guy? I think ....maybe??? Who cares. But as far as my pearls of wisdom that I leave for all to read, that is where I really kick ass.

I appreciate the suggestion. I know to do it. I just forget, in an endeavor to quickly enlighten all with my thoughts---pardon me pearls...I just hit that enter button without thinking about saving the copy of my much admired comments.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 16, 2005, 22:38:

One thing is certain about me here and NOBODY.... can argue with me on this point........

Way back in 1989, when I was a brilliant aspiring lawyer in my Uniform Commercial Code class on Commercial paper, I got into this huge debate with my professor on how a check can technically be written on a coconut. (The law by inference clearly says you can)
We bantered for about 5 minutes. The class was extremely amused especially since commercial paper is about one of the most boring classes you take in law school. Anyway, in extreme frustration he said......(my name) you are a "Lightening Rod of Controversy."

I did not think much about it then, but over the years I can see what he meant. I can safely say that I still live up to my reputation right here on PBH. When I write, the people seem to come out of the wood work to respond. When someone falls, another comes right in where the other leaves off.

What would you people do, really, what would you people do, should I decide to just hang it up? How bored you all would be. All you Fantasy Folks would get pretty bored telling each other how great a place Colombia is. Kernow would go out of his mind with nobody to pick on. Juanalejo, Carter, ColX (no --he is good guy),BlondJames, Kat1, and the rest of the cast of characters, would really have to search me out in earnest to beat me over the head with exagerations, distortions, and especially putting words in my hand (a favorite trick) just to get their "fix" of taking on the G5.

Well, don't worry. I am not going anywhere to fast. I will not let you all down. I am here to stay. I may stray away for awhile...for just enough time to get lulled into a false sense of security,

And then, out of nowhere, the lightening rod of controversy will strike again....at a moment you will least expect me to do so.

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Copete says on Mar 17, 2005, 01:21:

These posts from G5... ...just summarize what his personal agenda in this forum is. It hasn't taken me long to realize that the last thing he's interested in is in promoting constructive debate about Colombia. Rather, he comes across as a narcissistic guy who just gets a kick out of sparking controversy, just for the sake of it, because his reasoning is anything but impressive. Big deal. The president of my university, obviously a very smart guy, just got a vote of 'no confidence' from the faculty that put him on the verge of resignation, after making some stupid remarks on women in science, "just to provoke" people. And they did just what G5's do here: promoting confrontation with no constructive purpose. And his style has won him anything but admiration. In G5's case, it's all the more sad coming from someone who claims to be Colombian. Because Colombia may have whatever problems you want, but it does have lots of room for improvement, and it can certainly provide people with a fulfilling life.

What's most ironic is that G5 displays most of the defects he criticizes. He accuses other people of putting words in his mouth, while at the same time arguing they "deny the reality." What reality? HIS reality? Because, if anything, they're people who talk about their own experience, THEIR reality, not the reality of Semana and El Tiempo, and the US State Department. On the other hand, I have yet to see him criticize the reality he actually lives in, the American reality. Because if there is a country that's painfully incapable of self-criticism, it's the USA, despite its serious social problems at many levels. It may be a great place for money-making and professional development, but I'd think it twice before raising my children there, after seeing how spoiled and immature most American kids are. If anything, at least Colombian kids grow with a better sense of reality, and have a better appreciation for what they have. 40% of Colombia's territory may have a weak presence of the state, but how much better is the USA, now with some 70% of its geography taken over by the narrow-minded cowboys, religious fundamentalists and racial segregationists of the so-called red states? The states that represent the US values people actually admire, such as innovation, inventiveness, tolerance, entreprenourship, are now a shrinking minority and the situation is not changing soon. Many Colombians that may now look up to it as the promised land, may well end up changing their mind not long after they reach it, especially as Colombia's situation continues to improve. And I say it because that's MY reality, and I know for a fact it is the reality of many other Colombians who are now looking forward to going back. Who would be someone like G5 to criticize us for thinking that way? Because at least my sense of purpose in life goes beyond making money without knowing why I do so, living safely and one day dying safely. I have a better sense of which things are truly important. And I feel fortunate to have learned those lessons in a country like Colombia.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 17, 2005, 06:34:

Off the rails G5, I think you're sliding toward manic. Careful buddy.

The answer to this question, "What would you people do, really, what would you people do, should I decide to just hang it up?" is that we'd hardly notice.

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kernow62 says on Mar 17, 2005, 06:55:

Sliding? He slid off a long time ago. ja ja

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kernow62 says on Mar 17, 2005, 07:14:

Gomez I am leaving my options open, I and my wife both hold citizenships that allow us a great deal of freedom when it comes to choosing a country of residence. What we will do, who knows. When I get closer to retirement I may indeed move to Colombia, it is certainly quite high on my list.

You enjoy telling everyone how great you are. Great people do not need to tell people, it will be obvious.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 17, 2005, 07:17:

Ah yes..................Copete..and where have you been Yea, I'm the bad guy while the rest of you all sing the same songs and dance to the same melody. And because I bring out good point that people can't seem to respond to, I am the blowhard. That make a lot of sense. Actually, my last post was a joke. And it was specifically meant to go a few people who knew it as such.

Pardon my ego, but each and every one of my posts are well reasoned and also can be easily substantiated.

And let the Fantasy Folks sing on and on as they continue to wear the blinders that cover their eyes day by day.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 17, 2005, 07:25:

Nice diatribe, Copete. Of course nothing you say has the slightest connection to reality but that's ok. Most diatribes don't. One of the things that I don't understand and maybe somebody can help me here, is why are most of the posts on this board about the United States? Maybe somebody should start a Poor But Happy USA and then most of the posts could be about someplace OTHER than the US.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 17, 2005, 07:39:

Great? Kernow I never said I was great.....are you joining the group of people who find words that I have never writen? Whose great? You think that I think I am great because post my opinion in a board room? Look, when I had to argue my first case before the Illinois Appelate Court and won, I did not think I was great.....well that was partly because I was pretty sure I would loose when I would have to argue it again before the Illinois Supreme Court. And I was right, when the case went there, I lost.

Kernow, I may tease you. I know that there are certain people, and you are definitly in the group, that whenever I post, YOU are right behind me like a magnet. Amd that is why I wrote the above post. By your own admission, you like challenging me. I don't even think that you believe some of the stuff that you write. You just like to be contrary or play the role of the "devil's advocate." Admit it. I don't even post on %90 of the threads. How many threads do you see me participating in at one time? But, whenever I post, you and several others thing......"Oh boy let's go get G5." I better be careful, because now someone is going to come back and say that I am paranoid. Except the proof is right here Kernow. If you check out the last several threads that I participated in, you jump right in and move it along.

As to your moving to Colombia, that is a bunch of borscht. Retire there? More borscht. Try some chicken sour or best of all, Ajiaco. Except only place in Colombia where you will consistently find Ajiaco is ....Bogota'. Oh yea sure, I can just see you in Colombia having to put up with the inconveniences that people go through to live there. I mean this is a country where you still cannot pay your bills with a check by mail because you have to worry about it get stolen in route to its destination. As a result, people have to stand in line forever at banks to pay their bills. That's fun isn't it. This is also the same country that still has a government run and incredibly incompetern telephone system. (telecom) If your phone line goes down, don't expect it to be fixed within 24 hours like it is here in the states (at least in Chicago it is). My friend living in SantaAna one of the nicest barrios in Bogota, --- almost 2 weeks now---is still waiting for his line to get reconected. Do you think you would wait 2 weeks in Orlando? Kernow....you have much to learn.

As for me,I love Colombia to visit,,,,that's it.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 17, 2005, 07:46:

You are right UTC.... The posts all seem to be about the US...and oddly enough, they almost always seem to present the US in a negative light. But where do these people that complain the most about the US live???.....helloooo.

I really wish this people who were so unhappy with the US and have little positive to say would just buy their one way ticket to their fantasy land.

I also wish they would ask themselves if Colombaia would be better or worse off today without the BILLIONS of dollars of assistance that it has recieved under Plan Colombian. Lets here what the Fantasy Folks have to say about that....Come on Copete..and Kernow.

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kernow62 says on Mar 17, 2005, 07:51:

Of course I like winding you up, your my wind up toy. I am admitting it, I like to push all the buttons that make you look like a nut job. I have nothing better to do. Javier

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