Becareful in the Candaleria, Bogota!! Two times in one night someone tried to rob me!

tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 15:04:

Go to North Bogota. It is very safe there

In Candaleria use taxis at night

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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aussiesam says on Apr 12, 2009, 15:21:

an American friend of mine got robbed and they put a machete through him..he almost died was in hospital for 2 months.. in the north on the 19

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tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 15:26:

"an American friend of mine got robbed and they put a machete through him..he almost died was in hospital for 2 months.. in the north on the 19"

wow, that happened to a friend of mine in Time Square New York.

I had no idea this could happen in Colombia too

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 15:30:

A Colombian friend of mine just called me to say that he was in San Francisco and had to dodge bullets on Mission Street. He then run to Florida Street where he had to dodge some more bullets…says he is on the next plane back to Colombia

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12127851

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Sam Salmon says on Apr 12, 2009, 15:46:

Here I thought Colombia was all about Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream!

' a la orden!'

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tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 15:52:

Is it verbotten to compare crime in Colombia to other places now?

Four men slashed, 4 arrested in Times Square melee

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/10/25/2008-10-25_four_me...

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 15:58:

Four men slashed with spoons maybe?

And you are talking about the US now. Didn’t you say that was verboten here…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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toneloc24 says on Apr 12, 2009, 16:05:

But it also seems like he's intent on downplaying the OP's crime experience IN Bogota. Whatever.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 16:10:

“But it also seems like he's intent on downplaying the OP's crime experience IN Bogota”

Why do you say that? I told him to either take a taxi at night or go to a safer area.

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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toneloc24 says on Apr 12, 2009, 16:11:

Then why would you introduce crime in New York City or San Fran to this thread?

The OP is talking SPECIFICALLY about Bogota, Colombia, Candalaria.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 16:17:

"Then why would you introduce crime in New York City or San Fran to this thread?"

because of some other anecdotal and unproven comment. I showed that I could do much better with proven anecdotal stories…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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bogotabrian says on Apr 12, 2009, 16:21:

I was simply giving a warning to those staying in the Candaleria. It was not a dig on Colombia.

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tasco66 says on Apr 12, 2009, 16:33:

“i got lots to say about this”

Yep, Elmo we all know you are an expert on crime in Bogota, can’t wait to read your expertise on this subject…

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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Cheers Terry says on Apr 12, 2009, 17:33:

Unless you were a really drunk/stoned idiot (and it was late at night) Candaleria used to be no problems, but in the last few years that neighbourhood has gone downhill really fast. The fairly recent explosion of backpackers and hostels has resulted in the bad guys moving in.

I know several of the hotel/hostel owners in Candaleria have started putting a lot more pressure on the local authorities to increase police presence, but so far they've been largely ignored.

Cheers,
Terry

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Sam Salmon says on Apr 12, 2009, 17:43:

Cops won't do anything until they're paid to do so/some gringo gets murdered and the shit hits the fan-if it ever does.

' a la orden!'

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durito2 says on Apr 12, 2009, 19:02:

1pm or 1am?

That area has always been sketchy after dark, but I've never had a problem.

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webmanco says on Apr 12, 2009, 19:40:

at night is 1:00 am talking about giving papaya, the latest I was at a bar in La Candelaria was about the same time, a brawl evolved with trhowing chairs and bottles. Before that people were snorting inside, a few foreigners among them.

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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goin_south says on Apr 12, 2009, 21:52:

bogotabrian, ...
it was probably because you live in Medellin,
and the robbers in Bogota didn't want you to feel 'out of place',
or 'not at home'.

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 12, 2009, 22:49:

Cheers Terry says on Apr 12, 2009, 23:55:

adrimm, I spent lots of time in that neighbourhood in '05 & '06 and it wasn't anywhere near as sketchy as it is presently. Way more druggies and losers now.

Cheers,
Terry

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Apr 12, 2009, 23:58:

elSapo says on Apr 13, 2009, 00:18:

In '05 & '06 not even Poblado was near as sketchy as it is presently. Way more pimps, scums, sex tourists and losers now.

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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manINred says on Apr 13, 2009, 00:20:

That news disappoints me elSapo

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manINred says on Apr 13, 2009, 00:23:

casi que temo lo peor cuando vuelvo :s

i hope things aren't as dire as virgin auctions with thailand-esque sex-tourist feel.

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elSapo says on Apr 13, 2009, 00:28:

Just try to seat down at a cafe in Parque Lleras in the afternoon of whichever day of the week.
And then post here about how many people you recognize from the Internet, like from youtube, spanish school websites, escort service owners, etc.
It is hilarious. jajajajaja

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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manINred says on Apr 13, 2009, 00:36:

I will avoid lleras when i go back. i haven't been back for over 2 years, and i definitely won't go back to see a bunch of desperate slobs

that being said, even if i went to lleras, i probably wouldn't recognize anyone. and people would definitely not recognise me :)

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elSapo says on Apr 13, 2009, 00:38:

You know... this is a good idea for a new thread... thanks.

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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manINred says on Apr 13, 2009, 00:48:

well, i hope its not deleted by the time i log back on ;)

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bogotabrian says on Apr 13, 2009, 09:26:

Yeah, I used to hang out in the Candaleria a few years ago with my girlfriend from Bogota. I actually love the area. It has some really cool bars and restaurants. I think with all the hostels going up the thieves have found a new source of income.

It is sad that the police in the area do not feel the need to protect the area.

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mundoflex says on Apr 13, 2009, 17:36:

but so what is new about it,all over colombia where you find Backpackers, street crime is rising,why ,,well you know as you are from the business!!And Cali its not better than cartagena and medellin just declared to the most dangerous in colombia,so no worries,its all our falt,take it easy?

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toneloc24 says on Apr 13, 2009, 18:32:

I stayed at a hotel down in Candelaria in Feb-09. Nice hotel, but very sketchy area at night. The hotel folks BEGGED us to allow them to call us a cab at night. We found their insistence peculiar, until we we driving through the area at night. Several shady folks out and about, hiding in the darker side of the streets. The hotel folks knew what they were talking about. In the daytime, plenty of people hustling and bustling around, but my guard remained up after what I saw the night before.

In my opinion, this warning is valid and relevant.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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La_Huella says on Apr 14, 2009, 16:28:

Just got back from Cartagena again. I think just about anywhere on the coast is more dangerous than Bogota.

N.B. I DONT think it's safe here, I think it's dangerous. I just think the coast is even more fucked up. Watch your backs out there, holy shit, and it's not like in Bogota, 2-3 kids with a rusty razor blade between them, these are like gangs of 8-10 people packing military hardware. Man, fuck the coast in the ass!

For the record, I don't even like GOING to La Candelaria, and I don't even think it's safe during the DAY, nor do most of my friends here. I do know several people who love it there, but I think they are nuts.

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durito2 says on Apr 14, 2009, 17:07:

La Candelaria has always been somewhat dangerous at night and backpackers have been robbed there for years. Some got robbed at knife point when I was staying at the platypus in 2002 right outside the hostel.

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La_Huella says on Apr 14, 2009, 19:41:

KISS are from Astoria and Woodside bro.

We were in barrio Torices in Cartagena, in a nice conjunto. They told us, don't go more than three blocks on foot in any direction from here, because it's all gang territory and you WILL get robbed, even in the day. I said, well no problem, we'll make sure to go in a group. They said NOOOOO, that won't help you, these guys travel in big groups and they are ALL armed. Damn, at least in Bogota you're safe if you go in a group!

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webmanco says on Apr 14, 2009, 19:43:

ELMOKiss
hey web. where are all them injuns you posted walking around bogota with "kiss" faces

From Soledad Atlantico

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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toneloc24 says on Apr 14, 2009, 21:16:

LH - So wait a sec. You stayed in a nice conjunto in the middle of a shitty gang-infested neighborhood???? And that's your point of reference for the coast being so dangerous??? Just sounds like a bad cheap lodging decision to me.

In Colombia, safety costs, but not even that much. You could've found a hotel in Bocagrande for approx. $40-50/nite, cheap by anyone's standards during semana santa. And no looking over your shoulder, free to walk wherever alone.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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christobeldawg says on Apr 14, 2009, 22:34:

like my daddy used to tell me, "son, nothing much good happens when you're out after 12 at night". I think he meant anywhere in the world, but who was I to listen? Gotta learn our own lessons.

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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Robert Jorge says on Apr 14, 2009, 22:48:

Some of the best things that have ever happened to me were after 12am. LOL. But good point CristoB.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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christobeldawg says on Apr 14, 2009, 22:50:

good one RJ. When I was writing that comment, I was actually thinking the same thing.

traveling hopefully is always better than arriving

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goin_south says on Apr 14, 2009, 22:52:

Candelaria? during the day? are you kidding me?
those "dangerous modefoques' have to still be sleeping.
___

I was there in the late morning/early afternoon a year ago, and was beginnning to think it was a fokn ghost town.

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Robert Jorge says on Apr 14, 2009, 22:59:

Seriously GS, That barrio can get really rough - even in the day. If a person is cautious there and street smart, I would give them 2 weeks until they had some kind of negative experience pertaining to street crime. Kind of like hanging out in downtown Miami for a period of time.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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goin_south says on Apr 14, 2009, 23:23:

ohkay,m roberto.
So, I was only there for a few hours, late morning.
Year and a half ago.

hummmmh... wondering maybe now, why 'someone' wasn't too excited about going there last month.
But, ... she knew I'd already been there.... con otro mujer.
You know how these ladies are.....

Even Negatively Territorial! jajjAA!

Sometimes,... fokn stupidity.

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 07:10:

Torices is paradise compared to where I stayed the last time I was in CTG. Tone, that's my whole point, the moment you get out of Bocagrande Laguito and the old city it's ALL gang infested. And $40 or $50 a night, man, who are you kidding? I was bitching about the 15000 pesos a night we had to pay as it was!!! This wasn't a vacation this was business, and we weren't getting paid that much.

Not to mention I detest Bocagrande. I don't like hanging around with the pupi crowd. I love the fact that in Bogota there are a million options between that and gang infested slums.

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 07:14:

There are good places to live in Cartagena outside the ones you mentioned, Rubi.
Manga and Crespo come to my mind.

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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toneloc24 says on Apr 15, 2009, 07:30:

Dude, if you're bitching about paying 15.000 pesos/night on a "business trip," I don't know what to say. I guess you get what you're willing to pay for, but you can't bitch about it after. You got bad advice, dude, and you ended up in a gang-infested slum. That's about as bad as going to Bogota on a "business trip" and staying at a cheap hotel in Barrio Santa Fe or even Soacha.

In Bocagrande, there's a bunch of backpackers in the hotels and hostels in that price range. Nothing "pupi" about that. Before so immediately dismissing something, it wouldn't have hurt to check it out yourself. Many Colombians of lesser means that you even stay in that area. It's just common sense.

Outside of Bocagrande and the old city can be dangerous. I've never had a single problem wandering off the beaten path in Cartagena, but I easily can see how others would. There's been a turf war going on in Cartagena since the demobilization of the paracos between them and the local gangs. End up in the wrong place, wrong time, well..... All for the sake of going extra cheap on lodging. Not worth it to me.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 07:45:

Believe me next time I will INSIST on PROPER accomodations if I'm going back there.

But as you or I both know, there are plenty more cheap options that aren't so dangerous in Bogota, there's Galerias, Chapinero, Las Americas, Restrepo etc.

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goin_south says on Apr 15, 2009, 08:37:

Even Negatively Territorial! jajj
I meant: Passively Territorial

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toneloc24 says on Apr 15, 2009, 09:44:

LH - Kill the names. LOL!!!

$35-50/night is generally what I pay for lodging in EVERY Colombian city that I've been to, and have never ended up in any slumholes. I'm talking a/c, hot water, clean, safe neighborhood, secure, wifi or wired internet, breakfast included. For all of that, that's a bargain, plus not having to worrying about my stuff getting robbed in the hotel, as well as not having to look over my shoulder right outside the hotel.

Paying 15.000 pesos/night (approx. $6) is really asking for it anywhere in Colombia. I'm surprised you didn't even question it. Huge red flag. I'm sure the same would occur in Bogota. When I stayed in Candelaria this year, I paid 90.000/night (approx. $36 at the time) and a nice place, but still very sketchy area. I couldn't imagine what and where 15.000 pesos would land me in Bogota, nor do I care to find out.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 09:47:

Whatever... i noticed that Rubi got more prudent lately. In the old good times, he would have said: "I go out walking where the FUCK I want wherever the FUCK I am"...

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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toneloc24 says on Apr 15, 2009, 09:57:

LOL!!!! But it took 5 stab wounds in that ass to teach him to respect 3 little Colombian robbers in Bogota.

I'm glad that he chilled out and didn't ignore the warnings in Cartagena. He might have tried to resist and fight back and ended up with 57 bullet holes in that ass, Scarface-style. Those dudes shoot first, esp. since they're at war with outsiders. Then the question would've been, why in the hell was a gringo in that area in the 1st place? Whoever set him up with those accomodations, didn't have his best interests at heart, not something to be taken lightly in Colombia.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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bogotabrian says on Apr 15, 2009, 11:34:

"mundoflex says on Apr 13, 2009, 17:36: flag

but so what is new about it,all over colombia where you find Backpackers, street crime is rising,why ,,well you know as you are from the business!!And Cali its not better than cartagena and medellin just declared to the most dangerous in colombia,so no worries,its all our falt,take it easy?"

Mundoflex, I disagree. I think that a lot of hostel owners look for low rent areas which happen to be less safe like in Cartagena for example. There have been probably 10 hostels that have opened up near Parque Lleras here in Medellin in the last two years and I do not see crime rising in this area.

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durito2 says on Apr 15, 2009, 11:58:

Is crime really rising in Candeleria? Or is it like it always was? Every time I've been there it's been sketchy after dark.

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 12:56:

I still walk where the fuck I want wherever the fuck I want to.

Tone, RESPECT???? RESPECT those little cunts??? Nigga, PLEASE!! Remember first, they are DEAD as doornails now. And believe me if somebody else didn't beat me to it I woulda fucking taken care of it myself. Bajate de esa nube hijueputa!!! NOTHING has changed. You think I'm going to go hide like a little pussy at night just because there are muggers out there??

Let me set your fucking ass and everybody else's straight. I'm out more at night than I ever was before, and now I do it ON MY BICYCLE, which I use 24 hours. You are so far off it's ridiculous bro! I pass right by the bridge where I had the fight on a regular basis, at the same hour and same conditions as before at times BECAUSE I HAVE TO. I live down here now. There is no playing it like a tourist for me.

And our lodgings in CTG were not a hotel they were a private apartment, that of the guitar player's gf, who just HAPPENS to live in Torices which is FAR from being the worst neighborhood in CTG. It's just another typical nasty shithole in the nasty shithole Atlantic coast.

There are actually cheap hostels within the walls that are 30k a night, 20k a night off peak. But when you make pesos, the difference between 30k and 15k can be huge. Even if I could have afforded it, I wouldn't have done it. The purpose of business is to MAKE money, not LOSE it.

Let me make this shit perfectly clear because some of you fucking dumbasses on here JUST CANT READ!

I WOULD DO THE EXACT SAME THING AGAIN if I had to. If three punk kids try to rob me again, I will fight them the same way as I did before. I'd rather die than be a slave. Try to read this slowly so you will remember it next time.

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 12:58:

jajajajajaja... calm down... we love you.

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:00:

That really pisses me off when people take me for a punk bitch. I dunno what's up Tone's ass today. I doubt he'd ever dare say that shit to me in person.

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:02:

Is it snowing in Burungota? :)

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:08:

No. As a matter of fact i was just riding my bike with my shirt off for 20min. I have to get accustomed to this fucking tropical sun one way or another.

Trust me I'm very glad to be back in decent weather after the hellish heat and humidity of the coast. I don't know why anybody would want to live in that disgusting climate.

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Brians says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:14:

That is a site I would love to see the red ass canadian skin baking in the coastal sun.

12VOIP.com gives free calls to Colombia. Brian

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:16:

The sunblock did a good job, but I hate wearing that stuff. It's not natural. Plus, I have problems with exzcema in the humidity.

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toneloc24 says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:23:

Rubito - Watch the words. We ain't that cool.

In hindsight, you were closer to dead than they were when all this went down. 5 stab wounds, blood clot? No need to puff up your chest at ME. You were warned by many here. And YOU didn't kill them. That's a fact and a warning to all the wannabe Rambos already on the site. You got lucky. People with common sense understand this.

The jig was up for them. That's part of the game. Someone else got them, but it wasn't you. Fact. They lived by the sword, they died by it too.

If you would do it again, as you say, why didn't you go wandering around that barrio in Cartagena? Anyone with common sense could answer that question. Ain't quite ready to die, are you?

To be perfectly honest, if you were not told prior to going to Cartagena exactly what and where you would be staying in the middle of, again, someone does not have your best interests at heart. I could care less whose house it was. That's like travelling to LA in the late 1980s and early 90s, and staying at someone's place in Compton.

There's really something to be said for a foreigner bitching about paying 30.000 pesos for somewhere safe to sleep in Colombia. I'll let you tell it.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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pavo says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:30:

Rubito man. Stay safe. You can live a long time down here without an incident. The phrase no dar papaya exists for a reason. There are no winners in the morgue.

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:33:

You're damn fucking right we aint that close. Certainly not close enough for you to go off on me like that. Respect for fucking punk-ass kids robbing? What kind of a eunuch BITCH do you take me for? And pretty ironic YOU telling ME to watch the words.

I had no reason to go wandering around CTG. If I had a good reason to go somewhere I would have done.

Unlike you and others, I don't put the absolute top priority of my life as saving my own worthless skin. I DESPISE this mentality.

My point is, anybody who thinks they will avoid the danger of Bogota by going to the coast is a fucking idiot. And I stand by it. You come here, you are coming to a high crime country. PERIOD. If you can't take the risk you just shouldn't come.

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toneloc24 says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:39:

LH - Aight, dude. You took it there with calling me "nigga." We straight. No further words.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 13:44:

If you don't want to bring the cacique out, don't go around saying dumb shit like "I respect the people that robbed me" or that "I've learned my lesson". Especially since you should KNOW the difference. THEY learned their lesson. And I continue to educate people around here that they need to stand up and do something about it, and not depend on the police or just ignore the problem and hope it goes away. People need to grow some fucking BALLS. THAT is the lesson I learned a damn long time ago, and I will NEVER forget it.

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 14:04:

This document is like GOLD. I wish more people could understand Spanish on this website. So true...
It says everything, about Violence, about politics... it must be a stickyrt, o como se llama esa mondá...

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 14:14:

Ay los cachacos, ellos se mataban en la época del bipartidismo y crearon guerrilas y paras y inventaron toda clase de vuelta rara y chanchullos que hoy nos tienen jodidos, crean burdeles de animales en el centro de Burungota. No se acuerdan que mientras ellos se odiaban en la costa había protestas contra la opresión capitalista (las Bananeras) y entraba la modernidad (Scadta o Avianca, la radio, el teléfono etc)

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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webmanco says on Apr 15, 2009, 14:16:

ElmoKiss, there is nothing to see do in BoringQuilla

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 14:19:

It's ludicrous. And like I said, in Bogota you have to worry about groups of kids with knives. In the coasts it's bigger groups and armed to the teeth.

Personally I think we need overwhelming force against these cocksuckers. Here in Bogota that amounts to a couple of pairs of guys on motos with the guy riding shotgun CARRYING a shotgun. In the coast, it looks like it would have to be teams of people with flak jackets and RPGs to flush that scum out, but that's what they gotta do.

BTW limpieza social HAS started in CTG. They are circulating the same flyers there that they are in Bogota and Medellin. So you guys keep talking shit about how much better the coast is.

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Robert Jorge says on Apr 15, 2009, 14:31:

Elmo - are you going to be back in Currumba in late May?

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 14:32:

And what about getting a fokin granizada in the head?????
Nojoda, esta es Colombia o Suecia?????

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 16:49:

It's truly amazing how many costeño musicians there are here, but ALL IN BOGOTA. Funny thing, I don't know a single musician from BOG on the coast...

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 17:55:

It is because on the Coast they do not like that Inti Ilimani shit...

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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elSapo says on Apr 15, 2009, 19:01:

I just want to add that this is what happens when cachacos try to sing Vallenato... El mejor Conjunto de Vallenatos al estilo Burungotano.
What do you think that it would happen if they get to see this shit in Santa Marta, Valledupar or Barranquilla?
BOLSAS DE MEAO Y TROMPA PARA TODOS...

Buonanotte a tutti.

ANTI IS GONE! ELMO IS GONE!YOU KEEP THE PAPAYA. VIVA PBH.

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La_Huella says on Apr 15, 2009, 19:21:

Yeah but only 20% of Bogota is Rolos. Most of the rest is Costeños that moved here. There are more Costeños here than in any other place on earth, although Miami is pretty full of fucking corronchos too. All the best musicians in the coast have LONG since moved to BOG. There aren't hardly any left. Can't say I blame them either!!

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webmanco says on Apr 15, 2009, 19:24:

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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