Beautiful country, yes. Beautiful people, ?

litost says on Dec 6, 2006, 06:34:

Do you even wanna hear the lack of human warmth I (a colombian) have experienced in the US and Europe... come on! Stress, rudeness, nastiness, paranoia, selfishness, etc. exists everywhere and Colombia is by no means an exception. Particularly in the cities, which by the way it would help to know where you've been observing this 'colonmbian particularity'.

As a self-declared hippy my guess is you'll never be satisfied with modern society's behaviour anywhere you go. But if a quiet, friendly, chilled place to live is your priority I have a few recommendations in Colombia. And it's not gonna be Bogota, Medellin, Cali, Barranquilla, Cartagena, Pereira, etc...

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webmanco says on Dec 6, 2006, 06:45:

I would add that some colombians might look like they are rude because they are somehow scare. They might think that by starting a conversation with someone they don´t know they might be giving papaya.

On the other hand I do see people helping people. It is a matter of situations, rush, emegencies, moods, etc.



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2006-12-17 00:00:00 GMT+00:00

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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aztec says on Dec 6, 2006, 06:45:

Saw this type of behavior at customs... ...in Bogotá airport on our return to Colombia. A woman proceeded to rudely push her way to the front of the line directly in front of the agent. Surprisingly, in this case however, the other Colombians raised hell. The police had to come over and move her to the back of the line.

I believe people are so used to living with dangerous people that they tend to look away from such behavior. They don't interfere out of fear of provoking an attack.

Also, there may be a cultural aspect working here. As everyone knows Colombia was founded under different circumstances. People were taught to not question the authority of the church and thus the government.

On the other hand the U.S. was in the main initially populated by people who were rebelling or running away from authority. There is still some of the cowboy attitude in the culture. Of course I am not talking about NY, LA or Miami.

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gringolondinense says on Dec 6, 2006, 07:22:

well Hippie all I can say is everytime I go out in London the least I get is someone verbally abusing me, shouting and generally acting like spoilt kids. Im talking about women coming up to me in the street giving me a load of shit or telling me what to do when its none of their business. They have the guts to go this.

Europe as a whole is a pretty unfriendly place. Try living in Denmark, Belgium, northern europe and you will see how cold people can be. If youre dying in the street people will step over you.

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Waterdawg says on Dec 6, 2006, 07:22:

it is all over Latin America.. Worked , traveled , now live here ! The difference between English speaking Nations and Spanish ( when it comes to Manners & Social Graces ) are like night & Day ! .. I guess you will never get use to it , but learn to live with it ..

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 6, 2006, 07:28:

I do believe Colombian attitude towards each other is a completely different story when compared to Colombian attitude towards foreigners.
I suppose it has to do with distrust, however I believe it tends to be more visible amongst middle aged people. Old people are not like that at all, Ive found they talk to anyone, theyre very friendly and ask people questions "how does this work? where are you from?" etc etc regardless of the person's nationality. Young people are very much the same thing...Middle aged people on the other hand are always looking over their shoulders and making sure there is no one following, or dont wear watches while in the street, refuse to talk to anyone and come accross as pretty rude...I do believe it is direcly related to the fact that most have been mugged, robbed, know someone who has been kidnapped...that kind of thing changes a person's attitude but I dont think it means theyre awful people.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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podborski says on Dec 6, 2006, 07:35:

Colombians seem contradictory in this regard.

They are generally soooo polite, even when some store clerk or taxista is abusing them, but the same people will violently shove you out of the way at a bar or any line up for that matter, while smiling and saying perdon at the same time.

And calling a waiter's attention by yelling and flailing your arms is common, but still embarasses me, being the docile canuck that I am.

Seems to me they are polite when they needn't or shouldn't be, and vice versa.

And it is the same here in Argentina, but they are even more rude in most cases.

(Just read a story today in Clarin that made me laugh. An old man got into an argument with a waiter who then apparently slashed the old boy's face with a knife. When three female customers protested the owner yelled at them, took their food and drinks away and told them to get lost. He did give them their money back however. Typical argy customer service.)

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 6, 2006, 07:50:

Gringo, I would have to disagree. I have nothing but "creepy" stories about people talking to me and being really friendly in Europe, it is true that people don't say hello to everyone as they do in the States, but for instance, I used to go for lunch alone in Canary Wharf in London and I always ended up meeting someone, people would come up to me ask if they could sit with me and start chatting, same thing in the tube and most of them were brits. I even remember I went to get my week travelcard once really early and the guy at the newsagents didnt have any change, so he topped up my oyster card and said "you can pay me back this afternoon"... In bogota taxi drivers will cuss at you if they dont have change...Usually people are very polite but the degree of trust in perfect strangers is just non existent.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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aztec says on Dec 6, 2006, 08:07:

If you want unfriendly and rude... ...try being an American in Paris.

I have a different perspective on Colombian people. My very first experience occurred in the Bogotá airport. Couldn't speak a word of Spanish and was attempting to call out to a friend. Couldn't do it.

A perfect stranger, a bilingual Colombian, noticed my difficulty and stopped on his way out of the airport to offer his assistance. When I attempted to pay him something for his help he refused. Just a common courtesy, he said.

Ever since, I have been lucky in my interaction with people of Colombia. I have found them to be extraordinarily kind and helpful.

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 6, 2006, 08:19:

After re-reading my previous post I thought it was necessary for me to also emphasize on my nice experiences in Colombia as well. Last Oct BF and I rented a car to travel from CTG to BAQ and Santa Marta, we stopped for lunch at El Prado hotel and couldnt find our way out, silly tourists without a map, so while waiting for a traffic light to turn green we asked a taxi driver for directions and he offered to take us, we followed him for 15 minutes or so and then offered to pay something and he completely refused, he said we didnt owe him anything and waved bye...it was a very nice thing to do, Ive also gotten simillar treatment in Medellin. I went for lunch to Parque lleras, ordered desert and it had some fruit i had never seen before, I tried it and loved it, asked the waiter what it was he tried to explain, I had never seen such fruit and he just went to the kitchen, grabbed two of them and handed them to me "pa que se las coma mas tarde"... it was awesome!!!

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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billyb says on Dec 6, 2006, 08:45:

CK, we had same experienca with taxi... driver in Armenia, he had us follow him to address we needed (also about 15 min)and also refused when we tried to pay him. I guess the moral of the story is, there are all kinds of people everywhere.

BillyB

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juancegomez says on Dec 6, 2006, 08:51:

That's how the world is these days You'll indeed find plenty of both kind and unkind Colombians, depending on the circumstances and on simple randomness, but instances of such behavior are going to show up in many of the world's big, modern cities, from the looks of things. There's plenty of anecdotic evidence in that direction here already.

What changes is how people express themselves, which definitely varies from place to place, but those same contradictions are not really out of the ordinary in this time and age.

I think that Cerealkiller does have a point about the differences between older and younger people, but I don't think that its "direcly related to the fact that most have been mugged, robbed, know someone who has been kidnapped". That might be true in a number of cases, but I seriously doubt that it's the best explanation for it as a whole.

More generally, I'd say that it's a result of the stress and disappointment of modern life, which tends to get worse as getting older usually means having to work your ass off for a living and so forth. National, regional, local and personal problems, of course, can also be other sources of such stress, but direct experiences aren't necessary. Even simple perceptions can be enough to help create stress.

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Mononoke28 says on Dec 6, 2006, 09:53:

Go live in... ... New York city and you'll find the same type of behavior. Don't analyze it so much, eat a chorizo con arepa and get over it.

Diana

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miamimike says on Dec 6, 2006, 10:09:

I see this in Miami With All Latin Cultures the Most Inconsider --ate being the Miami Cubans. All are guilty though! When I was young in Penna, if we did that in front of our Parents, my Sis or myself, would have had our Heads knocked off literally! It has to do with your upbringing, I don't beleive its accepted in any culture and I sure don't let them get away with it for ONE Second here in Miami! If they cut in front of me, I let 'em know about it and where the line starts!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 6, 2006, 10:31:

Lowell.... While you provided one instance of behavior of this nature, and claimed to have experienced it "well over a 100 times.....", I still don't think that is indicative of Colombian people as a whole. I am biased a bit because I am Colombian, however I have spent most of my adult life in the here in the US. Even, Bogota, which is both figurativly and literaly one of the coldest places in Colombia, has there share of people that are rude, however, I would not say by any means that this is indicative of the population as a whole. In fact, they know from hearing my Spanish that I am not a native speaker, and yet I find that they are most cordial to me, especially when I am seeking assistance or service somewhere. As a whole, I find that people say "A usted o con mucho gusto" with much greater frequency in Colombia, than a person willl say "Thank you" here in Chicago. When you take into account the everyday strife that people encounter, it is even more amazing that they are as polite as they are.

Honestly, as all here know,I have no problem being critical of Colombia when I think there is a need to do so, but I cannot in all honesty say that being rude is a common characteristic among its people

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aztec says on Dec 6, 2006, 10:53:

"Thank you" here in Chicago. Been there and done that. They looked at me like I was a leper.

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 6, 2006, 11:09:

Oh Aztexc....we're not that bad. If you think Chicago bad, try New York......

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colombian111 says on Dec 6, 2006, 11:10:

hahaha leper? C'mon now I am Colombian but look white. Talk about not fitting anywhere!

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elmodefoque says on Dec 6, 2006, 11:43:

what the fuk is wrong with fokin nyc? how come ever fokin modefoque out there wants to make fokin nyc look bad. new yorker are the friendliest modefoques in the fokin plant.
"Fuk YOU hugo chavez, you could take your fokin cheap oil and stick it up your fokin ass you cok sucker" ny native "kid from brooklyn"

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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elmodefoque says on Dec 6, 2006, 11:53:

i'm really gettin fokin fed up with this putting down of fokin nyc. all my fokin life i had to hear how barranquilla is a fokin piece of chit, then i moved from there to fokin NYC. now, all i hear is how NYC is a fokin piece of chit too. Well to that i says, FOK YOUUUUU and the fokin horse you rode on. NY fokin city is the greatest fokin city ever, and fokin barranquilla is not too foking far behind.
kid from brooklyn here, have a nice fokin day and in the evening go fok yourself! you hear me? GO FOK YOURSELF!!

ASK NOT WHAT THE PUSSY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT PUSSY!!!!!!!!!! CAT LOVER

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andresumana says on Dec 6, 2006, 12:14:

"Are they afraid of being shot for standing up for their rights" that kind of aproches are so out of place!!
may i will get shoot easily from another citizen in the US where have a gun is not a big deal.

one of the things i have noticed in all the travel forums i read, is that "the great people of colombia" is a characteristic and the impression is always positive.

"That was just one observation of well over 100 that I’ve seen this year" in every big city in the world you will find 100 examples in a day, Paris, NYC, LA, London.
But if you are in Bogota that is the Bigest and the Coldest it will be more easy to find some one who helpyou and who whant to talk with you.

I live in Bogota, im single and one of the things that i enjoy more is that i can go outside, and start a conversation with out a problem with some one of my age, I lived in italy for a wile and i thought them were going be the same y was wrong.

If you are looking for the contry of the huggy bears this is not the place and i doubt you wont find it either


http://www.colombia4you.com

http://www.colombia4you.com

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Colombiche says on Dec 6, 2006, 12:39:

Good one Andres U Methinks the gentleman in question is on a quest to find "Care-a-lot" - that little fantasy land up on the clouds, inhabited by little furry creatures that hold hands and give you the "care bear stare".

Here Lowell, a carebear hug from a pure blooded colombian, just for you, there, there, do you feel warm and fuzzy now papi?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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bufalo says on Dec 6, 2006, 13:32:

When i lived in Barcelona, people would walk into a crowded bakery and announce "Who's last?" Then a hand would go up, noone would go to the counter until they saw the person who entered before them finishing up. Just try this in Colombia. I tell people off all the time:

"Excuse me sir, there is a line"

He just looks...

"Right here, I'm on it, I'm even next. Why don't you wait your turn.."

Then they usually look down and nod their head and go behind me, but I usually continue... because they damn well knew what they were doing.

"You know there is a thing called a line and you should respect other people."

Then the look of "alright already".

Then I say, "You didn't respect me, why should I respect you ?"(sometimes saying "bobo" o "tonto" after that)

I noticed in many different incidences colombians have a tendency to skirt acceptance of guilt.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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litost says on Dec 6, 2006, 13:32:

lmfao!
lmfao!

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myematic says on Dec 6, 2006, 13:54:

My 2 cents I'm an American born citizen who has lived in Colombia for 4 years. I must say that I disagree with the perception that Colombians are rude. Compared with the average American citizen, the average Colombian is much more patient and courteous. Just my $.02...

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andresumana says on Dec 6, 2006, 14:58:

When i see some one doing that in trasmilenio i aproach them and say "amigo, ¡eso de vivir en la cuidad debe ser dificil! no? ¿eso de vivir rodeado de gente, de carros y de buses? ¿eso de hacer fila y tener paciencia le debe costar trabajo? of course with a big smile and talkig with a volume others can hear. all the people laught and the usally get colored try to find some words but they put reverse and do the line

translation "hey pal, living in the city must be hard for you! dont you think? living surrounded by people, by cars, by buses? making lines and have the patcience must be very hard for you?

thats they way i doit and im not beeing afraid into getting shooted

and im talking about Bogota, every day you will see the people taking efforts in to make it a civic place to live.

we need a lot to do but we are doing it

http://www.colombia4you.com

http://www.colombia4you.com

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goin_south says on Dec 6, 2006, 15:50:

"How does it feel to be? One of the Beautiful PEOPLE!?" Lowell, go live in Pasto. Gentle, kind, peaceful people. It's almost completely surrounded on nearly all sides by FARC, and a few ELN hanging out. But, what the hell? Take your chances.

Where do we go from here?

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bufalo says on Dec 6, 2006, 17:36:

To counter my post (about 4 up from here), I do have to admit that some of the most friendly people I have met have been here in Colombia. Sometimes this hs to do a lot because I am a foreigner.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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scotty says on Dec 6, 2006, 18:16:

Rude is everywhere I have also noticed some rude people in Colombia, I'll tell you a short story about Colombians cutting the line that happened to me personally in the airport. First I want to say even though you can on occasion see rude people in Colombia you can also see this type of behavior in almost any country in the world including the USA. If you really want to see rude visit France.
ok, my cut in the line story: I was leaving Bogota for Miami, i was about to go through the check point in Bogota, I was in line and this Colombian guy came walking up very swiftly beside me and cut right in front of me almost knocking me over. He didnt blink an eye, acted as if what he had done was no big deal. I just let it go and continued to board the plane.
Hours later Im in Miami airport walking up to the American Airlines desk to check in for boarding to Dallas.When I was about 4 or 5 feet from the counter I couldnt believe what happened next...the very same Colombian man that had cut in front of me in Bogota came walking up again at a very fast pace and again attempted to cut in front of me. I saw him coming out of the corner of my eye and i stepped right up to the counter quickly, gaining the counter attendants attention. The colombiano said to me in a shocked and surprised voice " sir I was next in line". I turned to him and said " oh no you werent...we play by different rules here, welcome to America". The attendant giggled and the Colombiano was very surprised by all this. I have the feeling this man has been bullying his way around Colombia for years and getting away with it...but that crap dont fly here. You push here and you may just get pushed right back.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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miamimike says on Dec 6, 2006, 18:33:

Whome--welcome to Miami, Land of the Rude and Crude I see this line cutting all the time here, go back to my other post on this page (5-6) ahead of yours. If I have seen this once, I've seen it 100 times here in Miami! LOL I let 'em know also where the line starts in NO uncertain terms; if you don't you would be last in line perpetually!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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arthur brode says on Dec 6, 2006, 20:05:

Colombia does not revolve around Lowell Its a cultural thing.Get use to it.I did.Its much worse in other places,like Puerto Rico.The pluses outweigh the minuses by far in Colombia.But if it bothers you so much you can always go back to Gringolandia.Con mucho gusto y que tienes un feliz noche!

http://www.calirentals.net/

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goin_south says on Dec 6, 2006, 21:35:

Better yet, Lowell, go live in Puto Mayo, and maybe where ever it is you are staying will seem tame, then. Or, even try Samaniego. Tumaco? Remalino? Try explaining to the guerillas that you are 'jus an ol hippy, looking for peace and love.' And, I think you better start, as ELMO SAID, and greet them with shouting something like, "Fokkkk UUUUUU"!
That will put them on notice right away, that you don't want no more chit!

Where do we go from here?

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fugdis says on Dec 6, 2006, 22:33:

to the front I got offered a place at the front of an enormous queue at the DIAN building in cali the other week,for 8000 pesos.
Theres a couple of blokes who go down there early every day,one gets at the front of the queue and the other one walks up and down trying to sell his mates place at the front.The bloke behind me got the price down to 5000 pesos in the end and took his place.

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medellinmiguel says on Dec 6, 2006, 22:39:

Gringo's experience I'm a gringo who has been to Colombia many times and I wish I was there
as I write this.
One morning I went to Vivero San Diego (el Centro) in Cartagena. I was
shopping with a cart and this middle-aged couple were blocking the isle
but not very much. My spanish? I'm more understood than misunderstood.
I say, "perdonme senora con permiso." After I pass I noticed out of the
corner of my eye they were talking about me. The lady asked me, "senor,
de donde es usted?" I said "estados unidos." In english she said to her
husband, "you see, I told you he wasn't colombian, he too decent." It seemed
like everyone in the vicinity stopped to watch this exchange. They introduced
themselves and said they were visiting Cartagena for a reunion. I think
they lived in New York or Jersey. It was a memorable encounter and one that
I will never forget. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they know their country
men are rude. However, I think rudeness is worldwide unfortunately. This
couple was beautiful.

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Lowell says on Dec 7, 2006, 03:18:

I said some Colombians I did not imply that all Colombians are that way. Just quite a few. It's sad to see and such a waste. I was just a bit curious as to the why.

I do not live in one of the big cities of Colombia. In fact I may be the only Gringo living here. I see a stray once in a while. I moved here to take over the family after the father died suddenly last year. No older sons to pick up the slack.

This isn't a town that men come to find women. My wife hads told me that a sour look to another in this area can get you shot. At times I have to guard my mouth. I don't need to move to another area closer to the FARC. Mafia and tough guys are enough. It's dangerous enough. People here are now used to me and know that I'm not a woman chaser. I've walked softly and not carried a big stick. I waited over a year to buy a motorcycle, so I'd walk a lot, meet and talk to many. My face must have changed and lost the Gringo look. As now, out of the blue, a complete stranger will often approach me with a question, directions....

I'm a mid Strata family man and am respected for it. I've been visited twice by some of the big boys of my area. Not to bother, but to offer assistance if someone ever messes with me or my family. You might say I've a few big brothers here. It's like having a "Don't mess with him" note pinned to the back of my shirt.

Yes, it does seem to be the older/mid aged women who are the biggest offenders. Peace and good will has a place in the home and can spread to the public sector. Since moving here, in my house and the house of my my mother-inlaw (rest of the family), the phrase "Voy a pegar" is now rarely used as are spankings for the slightest of reasons. My kids are off the street (we live on a dead end street so kids play there)during the week at 8:30 PM and lights out by 9. I spend a lot of time on the street too. I have a great rapor with the barrior kids. I give them attention and phrase. It's not uncommon for them to play right in front of my bungalo. Guess what? People of my barrio have seen the change in my kids behavior for the better and are now following my lead.

One man can make a bit of a difference. Want a change in life? Move to Colombia, meet a good family woman, rescue a family in need and start a new life. The positives will way out weigh the negatives. It's not easy, but very doable. I now have no desire to return to the States.

Happy Holidays to all!

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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JVC says on Dec 7, 2006, 04:18:

Like most places, there are good and bad people...it's just that in Colombia everything is extreme! ....so the good people are really good and the bad people are really really bad. + there are plenty of cultural differences.....When I started driving here I quickly had to learn that a driver flashing his lights at you does not mean 'thanks' or 'I give way' as it does in England, but 'get the heck out of my way. I'm a-commin through!!'. On the plus side, when I came out here after a two year absence, lots of people who I hardly remembered said hi to me in Bogota airport and one of them gave me a lift at the other end...and when I went to get my hair cut, the lady greeted me by my name and said, 'caramba, estabas perdido!' Beautiful!

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Colombiche says on Dec 7, 2006, 07:08:

One man can make a bit of a One man can make a bit of a difference. Want a change in life? Move to Colombia, meet a good family woman, rescue a family in need and start a new life

Unbelievable, now colombians need the men from up North to come and rescue us and instill family values in our little savage hearts. You must be joking.

Everyday I thank God for my colombian upbringing, for the values that my hardworking colombian parents taught me. Attended a private school, played with the neighborhood kids. I was surrounded by nothing but a loving and caring family during my childhood in Colombia.

I can say my experience was the opposite. When I moved up North and was put into a Canadian school at the age of 11, I learned that my manners were useless. Loud burping, farting, making disgusting sounds, swearing at the teacher, bullying smaller kids or kids that didn't speak Engilsh was the order of the day. My parents had to call the police because I got my head busted in the school yard. 12 years old and knew what it was like to get stitches on my head! Does it mean Canadians are rude? No way, I would never say that. Canadians are polite and gentle people, wonderful country that I love, but there is the occasional rotten apple. The school system here leaves a lot to be desired as well.

I will not say that my experience is representative of the average Canadian school, or the average Colombian upbringing. , but it does illustrate a point: Stop thinking that everything up North is so great and that everything down south is somehow inferior. I don't think Colombians need your rescuing. Why instead of painting yourself as the saviour of the third world savages, why don't you come up here to your backyard and help me rescue the kids that I work with, kids that are being bullied endlessly and are afraid to go to school?

Your post wreaks of cultural chauvinism.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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aztec says on Dec 7, 2006, 07:19:

Colombiche while I agree... ...with you the statement "cultural chauvinism" reeks of psychological terrorism as used by the PC police.

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Colombiche says on Dec 7, 2006, 07:34:

Serious Aztec What is so psychologically terrorizing about expressing my point of view? I am just relating my experiences and contrasting them with those of the OP. I think he is being a patronizing and smug... that is how **I** see it, others can feel free to disagree. It's free speech both ways.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 7, 2006, 07:57:

I just can't figure this out There are rude people everywhere. OK, I will admit, small towns, because of the close and frequent interaction people have with each other tend to have people that are more cordial. However, this is true in Colombia, as much as it is in any other country I imagine. I do think that the larger the city, again, in any country, the more "distant" or "rude" you will find the people to be.

As to you people with your comments about Chicago.....hey we are an expensive city, crime is not out of line and it is about the same as any other city relative to the size and population of the city, and it's weather is as diverse as any city I know of in North America. We have the coldest of the cold and the hottest of the hot. Today is a good example. It is only December 7th, the temperature is 15 degrees (F) and the wind chill makes it feel like minus 4 (4 below zero) 99.999 percent of the Colombian people could not even imagine what that cold feels like unless they have experienced it firt hand. But most of the great American cities, especially Mid Western cities had the great flight to the suburbs,Chiacago, being largest Mid Western ciy, never had that problem. In fact, in the last 10 years, people have moved back to the city like no other American ciy. Areas that were depressed, or vacant due to the abandonment of industry, have been developed at an astonishing rate. The result? In spite a non stop reduction in Federal revenues that most American cities enjoyed throughout the 50s until the 80s, taxes have hardly increased here because with the constant development and growth, the tax base has risen at a faster rate than the national average. Stated simply, my property tax bill on my condo, is only slightly higher than it was 10 years ago, and the only reason it has gone up is because the value of the property has gone up and not because the tax rates have been raised. Illinois's income tax is one of the lowest in the country. The rate has not been raised in over 20 years. Compare our rate to New York's. That says it all.

When it comes to culture, museums, dining, and related, with the exception of New York, there is not a city that can boast about what it has to offer. The diversity is second to none. While most people think Chicago, is know for its huge Mexican population, they also did not know that it is second only to Warsaw, for the amount of Polish people living here.

At the end of the day, I stack Chicago up against any American city. BTW we also have the 2005 World Series winners in the White Sox, and a Bears team that has already clinched its play off birth, and is bound for the Super Bowl.

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aztec says on Dec 7, 2006, 07:58:

Certainly agree with you on the substance. But we have all become too careless with this subtle form of thought control. We are now at a moment in time when the medicine has become worse than the disease. Political correctness has created a culture where we are afraid of speaking because someone will accuse us of insensitivity.

For instance, the university culture where I spent 35 years is the most closed society in the world. Only those ideas thought to be enlightened are allowed. Mainly only liberal and multicultural themes are permitted. A faculty member will be ostracized and not promoted if outside this mantra.

My point is that we can no longer afford to ignore or patronize this foolishness. Peoples lives are now at stake.

My comments are not directed at you. I actually agree with what you are saying.

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Boatygringo says on Dec 7, 2006, 08:06:

Making a diference Great post Lowel it seems you have moved to Colombia for the right reason, and Colombiche you always respond so defensivly if any Gringo goes to Colombia and tries to actualy help out and do good, ( we dont need men from up north to come and rescue us ) If you love Colombia so much why are you living in Canada and not saving Colombia your self, Boatygringo

Boatygringo

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aztec says on Dec 7, 2006, 08:06:

Gomezman5, I must confess... ...that the only time I was in Chicago was during the great snow storm I believe in the 1970's or maybe 60's. It is impossible to make people believe how high the snow was along the streets. No one could get home for several days. The waiters and other hotel people had been trapped in the buildings for days. They were a surly group of people but under the circumstances the behavior could be expected.

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Colombiche says on Dec 7, 2006, 09:33:

Boaty Gringo The issue is not with helping, I have worked with other people that want to help out in Colombia, that is great, I remember one particular poster Caulfied, he was great, I wonder what happened to him.

This poster here, his idea of helping is marrying a colombiana and writing a post on PBH about how rude and uncivilized colombians are. Give me a break, con amigos asi pa' que enemigos.

You don't give out handouts to then turn around and humiliate those who you claim to have "helped". In Colombia we have a name for that it's called "Sacar la presa con la mano del gato". In case you haven't noticed, Colombians are proud people, why should we bow down our heads to foreigners like the natives did when the spanish landed on their shores with a couple of rank caravelas, thinking they were discovering "the new word", just like you guys now think you are discovering a new society that somehow requires your divine intervention.

Va la madre.

I live in Canada because one of my parents is terminally ill and figthing for his life, not necessarily stuff I want to discuss in a public forum but thanks for asking.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Gomezman5 says on Dec 7, 2006, 11:03:

Aztec There were two great snow storms that unless you experienced them (like you) nobody could begin how crippled the city was. The first one was in 1967. I remember I was barricaded in my home. You could not tell the street from the lawn or sidewalk. The few cars that were in the street, were virtually stranded. (abandoned) Trucks could not move. The city was shut down. This picture from 67 tells all:

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/images/298_11136.jpg

The second storm in 1979 was also a bad one. The incumbent mayor lost in his bid for reelection 3 months later as a result of it. And since that year, Chicago became a city that is second to none for its ability to remove snow quickly. The streets have rarely been clogged since then, and if so, only for a few hours.

Welll Aztec, we have come a long way since then. Better technology (computerized), better communication, more trucks of different sizes, better salt spreading ability, and lastly, special trains equiped with plows to clear the tracks, and lastly, a mayor that realizes his election is at stake (this more than anything), make Chicago a model city when it comes to snow removal

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aztec says on Dec 7, 2006, 11:17:

I was in the snow storm of 1967. Was there on a professional visit and could not get out for days. I am from the South and that was real culture shock!

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arthur brode says on Dec 7, 2006, 11:48:

I live in the city(Cali) and i dont see all this nastyness that Lowell speaks about.There is much more agressiveness/tension/stress/fear in the U.S. than in Colombia.And as far as family values are concerned Colombia can teach plenty to the North America.Yes,i have been a victim of having Colombians jumping in front of me in the line and stuff like that....so what?But once you get to know Colombians you will realize that they are very friendly and helpful people.But i do see some Gringos that come here with a superiority complex.Like if they are doing Colombians a big favor with their dollars.I guess thats were the term "green go" comes from.

http://www.calirentals.net/

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aztec says on Dec 7, 2006, 14:05:

Rubito It's not where you are that counts, it's where you are HEADED!

I like that! Even at my advanced age I still want to experience new challenges and go where everyone is afraid to go. What the H. You only go around once so don't be afraid. After all, we all die so go for it and look death in the eye.

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gringoloid says on Dec 7, 2006, 20:35:

hola... Hi myematic......You say you have lived in Colombia for the last 4 years. Do you mind if I ask you some questions about living in Colombia?

Who are the three blind men?

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gringoloid says on Dec 7, 2006, 20:36:

hola... Hi myematic......You say you have lived in Colombia for the last 4 years. Do you mind if I ask you some questions about living in Colombia?

Who are the three blind men?

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timeout says on Dec 7, 2006, 21:10:

Aha, passive aggressive... that's been my problem all along. I'm just too damn passive, with a hint of unreleased aggression.

I think I will enjoy my time in Colombia to gain a new perspective and come home to Canadia and start dealing with things head on. Seriously though, that passive aggressive thing does decribe Canada. Isn't western Europe like that too, but worse? Never been so I can't say, but that's what I heard

Is there a way I can pick out girls like Colombiche so I can be extra careful not to say anything that might, in my poor spanish, be interpreted as a national insult.

Colombiche, maybe you were picked on because you were from a different country. That probably happens everywhere (even in S America?) Sorry to hear about your relative.

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utopiacowboy says on Dec 7, 2006, 21:44:

Colombiche is right. Those Colombiche is right, eh. Those Canucks are terrorists, eh. Imagine a nation with hockey, eh, as their national pastime, eh! Boxing on skates is what it is, buddy. Those buggers, eh, I hear they even eat beaver.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Lowell says on Dec 7, 2006, 23:32:

Rescue I left my Noth American habits and ways there when I left for Panama. One reason for leaving. I had a great place in Panama that was sold as a great loss so I could get to Colombia quickly and help with the family. My new family has not been required to adapt to any of my ways. I've adapted myself to the ways of this country. Why do you think that I've been visited by the people in power here. For being a jerk from another country. NOT! This whole process has not been and continues to not be easy. Not a day goes by that I don't miss my old life. Sometimes responsibility really sucks. Just like some of the wrongly critical persons who post on PBH.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 8, 2006, 19:48:

I think Colombiche was a little hard on you, Lowell..considering the huge number of deadbeat fathers (more aptly called sperm donors), single parents raising rugrats, in both the US and Colombia, one can only admire those who take familial responsibilties serious. Providing support for an extended family can be tough, unless your extended family is of the Rockefeller or Gates name. It is sooo much easier to take the hi-way, than the right way....For your family, you are doing the right thing.......and they are benefitting from it.

Perhaps "rescuing" was not the best word to use? But i know of numerous single parent families (read maternal) in Colombia which could definitely use some help....afterall, in most cases families and children are better off with two parents.....no?

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...Listo!! Libertad!!!...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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morphus says on Dec 12, 2006, 18:21:

Colombians are'nt perfect. Some are friendly and some have a wall around them. At least they are not as bad as the Italians...lol

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Ivan-Demer914 says on Dec 14, 2006, 15:19:

beautiful people ,most of us are Ivan-Demer914 mister hippie ,maybe you shuld try to come to NYC and find love and peace,talking about a leak on your neighbor's roof when you have your livingroom flooded.

Ivan-Demer914

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Ivan-Demer914 says on Dec 14, 2006, 15:23:

hippie blues it could be worst,at least you're not being deported and called a criminal for trying to make a living.

Ivan-Demer914

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sweetg30 says on Dec 17, 2006, 06:53:

Why some people in this site tend to think that all Colombians have to be nice and happy all the time, just because we are Colombian doesn't mean that we can't be rude and nasty there are plenty of Colombian that are rude and nasty.
"That was just one observation of well over 100 that I’ve seen this year." over 100? you know how many people are in colombia, and you only seen 100 behaving rude and you're already questioning colombian people's behavior. If they're rude to you, you have two options you ignored the behavior or you can try and be rude too, see what it feels like to be rude.

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Lostgringo says on Dec 17, 2006, 11:11:

Rudness in Colombia I often see Colombians barging in front of me while I am getting service. As a North American (Canadian), I do not like it and have made that know to the offender. However, what we call rude in Canada is not necessarily rude in Colombia. For example, if someone approaches a clerk who is serving you, they will often tell that person to please wait or to go at the end of the line. They WIIL continue to serve you and ignore the other person 99 times out of a 100. But the customs are different in Colombia. Barging in front of the line is common and the clerk will often leave the customer they have talking to standing there.

My g/f is always doing this in Colombia and I warned her not to do this in Canada. I told her it was not acceptable and that she would likely be told off. She looked puzzled when I told her this. However, I like shopping with her because she gets things done pretty quick. No standing in line lol. Oh, another thing I have noticed that is that Colombians spend alot of time familiarising themselves with each other before they actually ask for what they want. Noted also above. And this is not neceassarily a bad thing but like most persons from NA I am used to getting in a store and getting out. "Hi do you have XYZ?" "NO" "Thanks good bye." "Yes." "I'll take one thanks."

These are a few of the querks that Colombians have and there are more. If we look at ourselves we can find just as many in our own counties. Unfortunately Canada in my opinion does not really have and identity like Colombia. It is juxtaposed with my cultures making it difficult to identify with one set of values. Hell, we can't even say "Merry Christmas" anymore. It has to be Happy Holidays. Getting back on topic, I think that imposing our values and customs on Colombians is wrong. I am still getting used to this wonderful country. And yes it is difficult for me to understand and except some of their customs. But it is my choic to come this country and I am the one that must adjust.

Here are just a few of the many things I like about Colombians and there are many, many more: 1) Strong Family Values 2) Willingness to take any job and work hard 3) Maybe the cleanest race on the planet 4) Their absolutre love for music and dance 5) Maybe a segment of Strong Family Values...the closeness of children with their parents. For example, walking the steet holding hands. I see fathers and mothers walking with their daughters and sons with their arms over their shoulders and holding hands. I am not trying to make sweeping statemnets here. I am only pointing out what I feel about Colombians from my very limited experience. To me these are querks not necessarily bad things and who am I to judge their culture! welovebogota.com

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 17, 2006, 12:59:

This is my opinion as well.....well said, LG! "I think that imposing our values and customs on Colombians is wrong. I am still getting used to this wonderful country. And yes it is difficult for me to understand and except some of their customs. But it is my choic to come this country and I am the one that must adjust. "

Go live where you find it desirable and where you are comfortable. If you dont like the US, then move to where you will be happy. if you dont like Colombia, then move to where you will be happy. But to sit and vegetate in a country that one bitches and moans about does not make much sense at all....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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morphus says on Dec 17, 2006, 17:11:

Fuck Italy!
Fuck Italy!

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 17, 2006, 18:05:

So, Morphus, we can safely deduce that you are not Italian? Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Simon says on Dec 17, 2006, 18:25:

"3) Maybe the cleanest race on the planet"


LostGringo,

Since when are colombians a "race"?

"Tu vas a ver, llegaras a mi edad y veras que Colombia seguira igual"-----Simon Sr.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 17, 2006, 18:28:

its a race when the food is put on the table??? =) Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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robi666 says on Dec 17, 2006, 18:58:

Morphus, was it a joke? Or...

Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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poco says on Dec 17, 2006, 19:40:

The Colombians where I live Are the salt of the earth,, I've never seen this problem,, gezzzz where are you guys ? are you sure it's Colombia,, maybe you are in Columbia ? Do the Columbians like BBQ's ?

Where I'm from the cellphone holder fad had died out,, BUT IT's still alive in another town,,



It just doesn't get any better than this,, now does it ?

I think I'll go somewhere tomorrow and do more Christmas shopping,, well,, there goes my 1K dollar live like a king budget,,

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 18, 2006, 01:07:

"Where I'm from the cellphone holder fad had died out" dicen que por allá en Tuluá o Buga anda un viejo verde gringo desocupado que no hace otra cosa que tomarle fotos a los culos de l todas las sardinas, dizque para mostrar la moda de donde guardamos los celulares...

Saludos,
Desi

«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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podborski says on Dec 18, 2006, 04:16:

y gracias a dios por ese hombre desocupado!

como mi mama me dijo: 'cosas pequeñas para mientes pequeños'

(apologies for my spanish)

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morphus says on Dec 18, 2006, 13:13:

"So, Morphus, we can safely deduce that you are not Italian?"

Although I am a quarter Italian and a quarter Sicilian, I am really part of a master race that is a mixture of Germanic, Slavic and Mediterranean people.

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robi666 says on Dec 18, 2006, 17:00:

What do you mean a quarter Italian and a quarter Sicilian? So you are HALF Italian and a quarter Sicilian...
Better to burn out than to fade away.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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morphus says on Dec 18, 2006, 17:15:

My grandmother is Italian and my grandfather was Sicilian. Heres a picture of my grandfather. He used to be a professional boxer. Unfortunately he got mixed up with the mafia and ended up getting killed in a shoot out in the Bronx back in the late 1940s :(

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Miguel_Clavo says on Dec 18, 2006, 20:13:

Morphus...your grandfather is not green, so why are your photos green???

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.....Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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goin_south says on Dec 18, 2006, 21:26:

I think I just figured out the difference between gringas y colombianas; gringas never carry their cellphone in their back hip pocket. They always wear them on their ears.

Sweetg... I have never met a Colombian that couldn't get rude and nasty. I'm tellin ya, we need to send that bunch to Iraq, and let them squash the fightin!

Where do we go from here?

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