Be careful when walking

Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 25, 2006, 20:26:

Not surprising The viciousness of Colombian driving, with its total lack of respect for pedestrians, to me is indicative of something larger adn more sinister in the national psyche. Might makes right, at least if you're behind the wheel and a one-legged homeless guy is trying to cross the street. Nobody here gives a friggin' inch.

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miamimike says on Apr 25, 2006, 20:47:

Could you Imagine a Disabled Person In Colombia... Attempting to cross a busy intersection in Bogota?? That is if they can get down to street level. Have they started to put any of those Wheelchair Access Low curbs in major cities as of now? I know the last time I was in Bogota I didn't see any. A friend who was on the Transmilenio was exiting at a Stop and a group of Teenagers behind her shoved her down and basically trampled over her. She ended up in the Hospital-said it reminded her of Pamplona's(spain) "Running of the Bulls"! That is exiting the Buses in Bogota :)

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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platano says on Apr 25, 2006, 20:52:

Driving is a learned behavior... There is nothing "sinister in the national psyche." The word sinister means "stemming from evil characteristics or forces". It is both insulting and ridiculous to apply that word to Colombians. (By the way I have had traffic slow down to let me cross as a pedestrian).

Human beings can change. Colombians can change. The proof is Mockus y Peñalosa reduced the number of violent deaths (in spite of the fact that 100,000 refugees were arriving annually in Bogota, fleeing from violence elsewhere to go to Bogota). In 1996 the rate of murders was 22.6 persons for every 1,000 residents. After four years the murder rate was reduced to 12.78 per 1,000 persons.

Also in those four years the number of deaths from traffic accidents fell from 1,387 a year to 821. The "sinister national psyche" seems not so sinister after all. :)

plátano

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 25, 2006, 21:34:

Traffic, driving styles, and......the need to get around When it comes to traffic and driving in Bogota, I am in a state of conflict. On the one hand, I don't like how there is so little (if any) traffic enforcement I found it irritating and dangerous to drive or be on the streets there as a pedestrian. When you consider I live in a city where if you get ticketed for not coming to a complete stop at at stop sign or driving only 5 MPH over the speed limit can get you a ticket, it is a real awakening to take to the streets in Bogota. But let me say this, when I get to Bogota, I drive like most over there. If I don't, I think I will be more likely to have an accident. I think it is called "going with the flow."

In Chicago, there are times when I have to get somewhere...quickly...I wished that I were in Bogota for the purpose of getting there. Sometimes I just let go, and pretend I'm in Bogota anyway.

So I guess what I am saying is while I recogniize that driving in Bogota is not the safest, it sure is challenging and it tests the outler limits of the realm of safe driving...in fact, it probably is out of the realm of safety period.

As to the pedestrians that are killed. That is easily explained. The pedestrians don't ever have the "right of way." At least in practice they don't. Even on the best areas on the north side of Bogota, when does anyone ever see a car stop at a cross walk to allow a pedestrian cross the street? ....Never.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 25, 2006, 21:40:

actually, Mr. Dictionary The primary definition of sinister is generally "threatening or foreshadowing evil or tragic developments."

Given how many Colombians kill each other with cars, I can't imagine you would really argue with that.

Nobody made an arguement that Colombians can't change. From what I hear they're much better drivers now than they were before Mockus and Peñalosa, but I've still had old ladies honk and shake their fists at me for having the nerve to be crossing the street with a toddler when they were in a hurry to get to their bridge game or something. And don't even get me started about what I saw some taxis do to a guy in a wheelchair in the middle of la 11.

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platano says on Apr 25, 2006, 21:57:

Colombia has strict traffic laws.... not chaotic lawlessness Even though people like to give the impression that Colombian traffic is a free-for-all, that is not the case. Traffic law exists and you can have your license suspended, be levied fines up to CP$360.000.000 (360 million pesos) and/or spend time in jail for traffic violations. These laws are found in the Código Nacional de Transito and in the Código Penal.

plátano

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 25, 2006, 22:02:

Hollywood makes a point When I was there last October, although I did not drive, I walked a lot, and took taxis a lot too and things did seem a bit better. But a guy in a wheel chair tried to cross la 11....hmmm that is taking life into your own hands. Although, he could have been more misguided, he could have attempted to cros la 7.

In fact, I think Juanalejo tried to run me down last October. I was wearing a sweat shirt that had "Gomezman 5" on it. Then a guy yelled at me in English, "G5 I'm sick of your posts." I was sure it was Juanalejo...but then again, who knows. That is why I invited the guy for coffee...or a beer, I figured we would be able to work things through with civility. But, he declined my offer. Oh well

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platano says on Apr 25, 2006, 22:05:

Depends on the dictionary, but the insult is the same... It is a very negative attribute to assign to the Colombian "national psyche"

sinister.

1) ...Suggesting or threatening evil: a sinister smile.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Plátano X, defensor de Colombia

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 25, 2006, 22:20:

Kat came back from Orlando and said that being a pedestrian in Orlando was frightening. Imaginate! A Colombian being afraid of US motorists. She's definitely been away too long. Being a pedestrian in a Colombian city is like walking around with a target on your back at a shooting range.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on Apr 25, 2006, 23:48:

Actually those statistics are pretty low for a city that size. Try comparing them to any other city of the same size, and you will get comparable numbers I'm sure.

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Colombiche says on Apr 26, 2006, 06:40:

How do you go from one thing to another? How do you go from talking about the lack of overall organization in Bogota to equating that to something dark and sinister brewing in the Colombian collective psyche?

Sounds like you are suggesting that these accidents are not really "accidents" at all, but rather, that Colombians are just natural born killers that will use anything as a weapon, be it a car or whatever. That might be true for some Colombians allright, but it is quite a stretch to say it is part of the collective psyche.

I have a newsflash: Traffic in any third world city is always more disorganized than that of "first world cities". I'm sure driving in Zurich is less traumatic than driving in Lagos, Mexico city or Sao Paolo. I don't think this is a sign of something sinister, just plain and simple lack of discipline and law enforcement.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 26, 2006, 06:51:

I'm with Colombiche on this one There is very little to psychologize about large-city-in-third-world-country driving habits, however bad they may be perceived to be.

"Imaginate! A Colombian being afraid of US motorists."

I don't need to imaginate. I am also more afraid of US motorists (particularly of the aging kind) than of buseta drivers.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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johna says on Apr 26, 2006, 07:29:

bicyclists I know that there are some colombians who do very well in bicycling. They must have practiced somewhere and not gotten killed or maimed toobad. So my questions are; is bicycling common in the cities, do you think that this is a sucidial way to travel, how much do you think a decent bike would go for. By decent I mean not totally rusted out, with a decent chain, and two inflatable tires. Nothing fancy. I am specifically thinking Medellin here. Thanks for the feedback

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johna says on Apr 26, 2006, 07:35:

Sinister? "I have a newsflash: Traffic in any third world city is always more disorganized than that of "first world cities". I'm sure driving in Zurich is less traumatic than driving in Lagos, Mexico city or Sao Paolo. I don't think this is a sign of something sinister, just plain and simple lack of discipline and law enforcement." colombiche

For my money the worst traffic is Paris. I did not think Mexico city compared. Seoul was second. These definitely suffered from a lack of enforcement, or maybe even laws, I do not know. But I am sure niether of these places would consider themselves 3rd world. My third on the list of crazy traffic would have to be Jakarta. There is nothing sinister about these people, except for maybe the Parisians ;)

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Blue says on Apr 26, 2006, 07:59:

So Do pedestrians have the right of way or not? Very simply, when crossing a street in a crosswalk are vehicles required by law to stop and let the pedestrian cross. Is this the law but simply not enforced?

Blue

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 26, 2006, 08:00:

I think there is something demented about motorists who actually speed up when they see pedestrians in the road instead of slowing down. My wife was shocked to see motorists here actually stop for pedestrians. She says that is one of the big differences between here and there and I quite agree. In Medellin while walking you have to keep your wits about you at all times.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 26, 2006, 08:41:

"Do pedestrians have the right of way or not?" They do.

"Is this the law but simply not enforced?"

I don't know the extent to which it is not enforced (high, probably, but I don't know how high). I believe a good portion of pedestrian fatalities in Bogotá are actually the pedestrian's fault, crossing in areas where it is prohibited. In the old Caracas Av. you could frequently see a scene like this: A mother with two kids carrying her groceries while crossing and jumping over a spiked center lane (intended to discourage pedestrians). Now that I still can't understand.

Disclaimer: I am not defending Bogotano driving. They are HORRIBLE drivers. I just feel more comfortable there than in the "turn-left-at-any-intersection-or-exiting-a-driveway" world that I live in now. No accidents yet, though.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 26, 2006, 08:49:

Whatever Colombiche and Platano, you're both reading WAY too much into my comment than is really there. I'm going to put it into a simple, declarative sentence so you can all hear me: Colombian drivers are heedless of human life and consistenly endanger pedestrians with their refusal to cede right of way. If you need proof, just count the damn gold stars on any major road in Bogota.

This is NOT a 3rd world phenomenon nor is their any reason for the discussion to digress into one of these boring chest beating matches about which is better, the US or Colombia.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 26, 2006, 08:55:

Orlando Just read Utopia's comment about Kat being afraid to be a pedestrian in Orlando. She's RIGHT to be afraid just BEING in Orlando with all those hopped up Disney Characters walking around. I'll take 3AM in Comuna 13 over high noon in Orlando.

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Blue says on Apr 26, 2006, 09:08:

Well.. When I cross streets in Mexico, Costa Rica, etc. I usually just cross diagonally and work through the traffic. This way works for someone who is able-bodied and non-crippled. Maybe not so good for others. Seems like it would work in Colombia as well. You don't even have to use a crosswalk and in these other countries I've found that once the traffic is stopped they are much more willing to let you cross over and maneuver around them. Just make eye contact wave and you're good to go. It never hurts to have your sprinting shoes on either. lol

Blue

Blue

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Colombiche says on Apr 26, 2006, 09:25:

"nor is their any reason for "nor is their any reason for the discussion to digress into one of these boring chest beating matches about which is better, the US or Colombia."

I wish it wouldn't, but read above and you will notice, that this thread (as many others at PBH) quickly degenerates into Colombia vs the US (Oooh, I can cross the street in Chicago without having my hairpiece blown of off my head, that would not happen in Bogota)... etc etc.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 26, 2006, 09:40:

Who said that there was anything bad about it? Why shouldn't the rule of survival of the fittest apply to pedestrians? Hell there are plenty of pedestrians I'd like to run over here.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Albatross says on Apr 26, 2006, 09:55:

What really sucks about Colombia ... is that you can't stagger into the street anytime you want without the possibility of some crazed maniac running your fat ass over.
(... and having the hairpiece blown off your head)

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 26, 2006, 10:40:

You characters are something " Traffic in any third world city is always more disorganized than that of "first world cities".

Colombiche, you're a very cordial person to communicate with. But I would not exactly call Bogota a third world city. In fact, where are the Go Go Colombia crowd now. (monpirri juanalejo and alike). God if I would have called Bogota a third world city, The strike force would have gone into action, and this thread would have already been on page there with in excess of 100 posts.

Really though, while the term "second world" may not exist, Bogota does not strike me as a third world city. The same can be said for Cali and Medellin.

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Colombiche says on Apr 26, 2006, 11:13:

Third World City I mean bogota is a third-world city in the sense that it is located within the boundaries of what is internationally deemed as a "third world country" or "developing country". I would love to say that my beloved Colombia is as developed as Japan and all of Western Europe put together, but I am just being realistic - Colombia is a developing / industrialized country trying to make its shift into a service based economy (but economic disparity and years of politicar turmoil have done the damage).

Sure, when you walk down some parts of Bogota (if we camouflage the desplazados in green, yellow and red ensembles so they blend in with the traffic lights), you could easily think you are in a European city. Downtown bogota is far more urban and sophisticated than downtown Toronto if you ask me. However, no city exists as a bubble, I don't think it is possible to have a first world city in a third world country..... is it?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Albatross says on Apr 26, 2006, 11:29:

. "Downtown bogota is far more urban and sophisticated than downtown Toronto if you ask me." ... perhaps, but that's not saying a whole hell of alot.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 26, 2006, 11:38:

"Third World" is not a derogatory term But this has been discussed before ad nauseam. In brief: Third World is neither backwardness, nor poverty. Google it in this site for further detail. I am as proud of being a Colombian city as I am of being a Third World citizen.

Tinto: WW3? C'mon! We've seen MUCH worse than this. Just the usual misinterpretations and generalizations.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Rubiazo says on Apr 26, 2006, 11:40:

HAHAHAH yeah you could have given a better example.

For my money the craziest drivers I have ever seen existed in Montreal. Bogota drivers just drive way too fast for North American tastes in general and maybe rely too much on their vehicle's brakes being in perfect condition. But Montreal drivers will take stupid risks I have never seen anybody take in Latin America anywhere, like passing someone in the wrong lane and running right through a stop sign past a blind corner.

Colombiche I wonder, are there really more desplazados in Bogota than there are squeegee kids in Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver?

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 26, 2006, 11:55:

Let's put it this way, Colombiche. I've never seen anyone in San Antonio using a horse drawn cart on one of the main highways tying up traffic. This is a common occurrence in Medellin. In fact my first time there I was shocked at the numbers of people using horse drawn carts and thought we had the 18th century and the 20th century in some kind of weird juxtaposition. I don't intend this as a criticism - I'm a horse lover myself and occasionally used to use one for transportation.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2006, 12:07:

UC As I told you before, I was scare of the big, wide roads, they are much too wide and the traffic lights didn't give us a chance to crossed it, thay changed in a blink of an eye!!!. we run like hell, I even took my shoes off and broke the 100 meter olympic record, why They don't do flyovers like in Bogota for those kind of roads, many of my friends were put off by them.

And last thing, I part blame pedestrian in Colombia for getting run over, you can see that they have the flyovers, or the traffic light near but they are just too lazy to walk there or go up the stairs, they prefer to jump into the traffic!

engage brain before opening mouth

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Rubiazo says on Apr 26, 2006, 12:47:

That is one thing the statistics didnt tell is how much they deserved it by trying to cross when cars are FLYING!
I actually have a pic of this auxiliar at cll 76 and Caracas. She was sticking these stickers with a picutre of a donkey on them onto people who tried to jaywalk, AND writing out tickets! :P

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kernow62 says on Apr 26, 2006, 13:40:

I actually had someone in Bogotá flash their lights for me to walk across the road near Hacienda Santa Barbara!!!

In Paris I was shocked that the moment I stepped off the kerb all the cars halted for me to cross. I think pedestrians have the right of way in Paris and having just come fom London where they don't have the right of way it took me by surprise.

So do pedestrians have the right of way in Colombia? I assume they don't.

Miamimike the high kerbs in Bogotá were installed to keep people from driving on the pavement, that is one reason for a reduction in pedestrian fatalities. Depends where you cross, but at corners they do have a low kerb for wheeled access.

You have to be nimble, especially exiting or climbing on a bus. How to overweight people get through the turnstiles on the buses, do they have to have them enter through the rear door?

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juancegomez says on Apr 26, 2006, 13:53:

pedestrians do have the right of way... ...but they also are obliged to take care of their own lives, by crossing safely and consciously. You can't just barge in front of a speeding car and hope that the driver will be able to react in time just because you have the right of way.

The driver might deserve some blame for speeding, but the pedestrian is also responsible for his/her own actions and for preserving his/her own life.

Far too many people just dash in front of the cars in the middle of the street without paying attention. And I say this as somebody that usually prefers to walk rather than to drive when possible (I'm probably the person that drives the least in my entire family).

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utopiacowboy says on Apr 26, 2006, 18:55:

I certainly would have liked to have seen you sprinting across the road with no shoes on! What other items did you take off to improve your speed? Damm, another opportunity lost.....

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 26, 2006, 20:38:

FWIW For what it's worth, I don't think the high incidence of pedestrian deaths in Colombian cities is the fault of people not knowing how to cross. Let's be serious, how many times have you been caught in the crosswalk when a light turned against you and all the cars just gunned it and started right at you? I've had this happen a number of times and seen it happen to everyone from handicapped people in wheelchairs to old people with canes. It's all about each man for himself and no respect for others.

The irony, of course, is that the same people who are barbaric behind the wheel are generally some of the most polite and considerate folks in their interpersonal relationships. Good neighbors, good friends, bad drivers.

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Rubiazo says on Apr 27, 2006, 02:36:

juance are you sure pedestrians have the right of way even when the light is against them? That is not my understanding at all.

Kernow, trust me it was NOT easy for me to get past those buseta turnstiles. I just had to expel all the air out of my lungs and suck my gut in and PUSH! :P

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juanalejo says on Apr 27, 2006, 04:46:

Pedestrians Unfortunatelly most of pedestrian deaths in Colombia are the pedestrians fault. And no, this does not excuse the bad education of drivers in Colombia, but most deaths are not by somebody purposefully driving a car into somebody when they are turning in a corner. Most of these deaths occur when somebody runs across the middle of a higher speed avenue (many times just half a block away from a pedestrian brigde) or when people cross the street in between slow traffic thinking all lanes are going at the same speed and suddenly they appear in front of a faster moving car. Another cause has to do with motorcycle drivers, who are even worse drivers than car drivers, and who drive within two standing cars and run over pedestrians who are also crossing in the middle of the road.

There is whole debate about our speed limits going on precisely because of this problem, it is now 60 km/h in the city (which is ridiculously slow in some avenues) but the transit authorities say that it brings down pedestrian incidents as cars are able to manouver quickly, and they love standing with speed guns in avenues like the one leading to the airport here in Bogota. About 100 USD for speeding here.

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juancegomez says on Apr 27, 2006, 10:50:

Rubiazo:

"are you sure pedestrians have the right of way even when the light is against them? That is not my understanding at all."

I believe that they still do, strictly speaking. But it's simply much harder to enforce and much riskier to rely on that when the light is against them, certainly. In other words, we should try to avoid those situations as much as possible.

I usually try to wait for the next light, even if the rest of the guys crossing don't, rather than to blindly assume the risk. Some drivers will still respect the pedestrian's superior right even if they have the green light, but others won't.

In other countries that may not make much of a difference, because more drivers are used to stopping for pedestrians under any circumstances and rightly so, but here it does.

I'm certainly not blaming pedestrians alone, since the drivers also share responsibility for such deaths, depending on the circumstances. I just believe that the pedestrian should try to ensure his or her own safety first and foremost, minimizing the risk.

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 27, 2006, 18:13:

Hold on Juan 1-- USD for speeding?? Come on. You don't even have to pay that much for speeding in Chicago.....Rethink that amount

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 27, 2006, 18:48:

Speeding ticket According to the National Transportation Code (article 131C), the penalty for speeding is 15 daily minimum salaries (DMS). A DMS for 2006 is CP$13600, so 15 x CP$13600 = CP$204000. US$1 (TRM) = CP$2373.94, thus a speeding ticket today was exactly US$85.93.

Okay, now I know I would do anything to procrastinate real work.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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webmanco says on Apr 27, 2006, 19:38:

Although I feel pity for street dogs Las personas usan la cera, las estrellas negras no

Although I feel pity for street dogs.

(I really hate it when women get their panties all bunched up their butt, they can get so cranky!) Poor butt happy

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webmanco says on Apr 27, 2006, 19:39:

Campaing for drivers and pedestrians

Rubiazo says on Apr 27, 2006, 23:16:

Personally I think that a pedestrian should only have the way if they cross when they are supposed to. If you cross against the light and get creamed not only is it your own fault but you should be civilly liable for any damages to the car.

In Bogota, on all major streets there are pedestrian bridges every 500 meters, sometimes even closer together. If you are too slow or disabled or whatever to cross at street level you can use the wheelchair-accesible bridges and cross at your leisure. What more could you want?

I had a hard time in LA because people drive so goddamn slow and stop for everything! No wonder traffic is so bad there.

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