Arrest of foreigners and legal issues

Gomezman5 says on May 20, 2006, 09:13:

from what I hear Don't expect things to be much different in Colombia. Look, Latin American, no part of Latin America, is going to give a arestee/defendant rights that you are going to find in a place like the US or England.

I always tell people that the Bill of Rights stops at the US border. And when it comes to the rights of an arestee/defendant, that is even more so. My suggestion for you is that if you want honest and reliable information, call the US embassy in Bogota. One of the first calls an arestee makes is to embassy. They can tell you with %100 percent reliability what rights you will and will not have. You will also need the help of the embassy to assist you in your defense if you are arrested. They know reliable attorneys and they can assist you with contacting your family. Trust me, the Colombian National Police, does not put a phone in your hand so you can call your loved ones in the US. They may in time, but it will not happen right away. I know this because I have had families contact me about problems their family has had. In one case, a friend of mine who works with the National Police in San Andres called me to tell me that he had a young girl who was from Chicago. She flew to Costa Rica, and then SanAndres to be a mule to bring drugs to the US. At the time he called me, they had her in custody for 2 days and she still had not spoken to anyone. My friend asked me to call her mother and tell her about her arrest. Isn't that a great system?? Imagine how I felt having to advise the mother of this. She, was shocked because the daughter had told her that she was going to Miami for the weekend. Well, she did go to Miami....to change planes to go further south.

Anyway, I think you get the picture. As to the specifics regarding your rights if arrested, call the embassy. In fact, i would imagine that the embassy's web site would have info on this subject.

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Ric says on May 20, 2006, 09:16:

Gomezman5 Thanks for the information.

Ken

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vladimiro says on May 20, 2006, 09:36:

Americans treated differently? It would be interesting to see how Americans are treated in Colombian legal system because they are sometimes given preferencial treatment in third world countries with pro-US governments. Its a controversy in some countries that Americans are above the law.

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Gomezman5 says on May 20, 2006, 09:41:

"I do know two gringos that have been setup by women."

Quote from Patsygringo's above post

What she has described is VERY common in Colombia. It happens MUCH more often with gringo than Colombians. The average Colombian could never come up with any where near a few hundred dollars on the spot.

And this type of stuff goes to the heart of my security argument. It's not just kidnappers and stree thugs that make the Colombia dangerous. It's the rate at which incidents like this occur, that add to the security situation.

The above being said however, Patsy mentions another good point. If you find yourself in a position like that, and all it costs you is a few hundred dollars to get out of the situation. Then PAY. Lawyers in Colombia are not cheap. And you will never find a lawyer to put on defense for you in a case like that for a mere few hundred dollars...not to mention the misery involved and your life being in a state of limbo. The justice system in all Latin Amercian countries works much more efficiently for those who can buy their way out of a problem. Mexico in notorious for problems of this nature. I suspect that Colombia is just as bad but we just hear about it happening more often in Mexico because there are a thousand times more American tourist who go to Mexico than Colombia. Hence, that is why we hear about it more often. Interestingly enough, in Mexico, you hear about this in the large cities...(Mexico City and Guadalaja). You never hear about this stuff in the big vacation spots like Cancun, and Puerta Vallarta.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 09:53:

I hope Colombia does not imitate USA practices... In Colombia don't you have a right to legal counsel? I don't believe Colombia permits rendition flights to secret prisons outside Colombia or indefinite imprisonment without legal counsel.

plátano

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Gator says on May 20, 2006, 10:03:

Rent The Movie Midnight Express, pray to God you do not end up in La Modelo prison in Bogotá(better you have died as a small child), and do not depend on too much help from the embassy). Remember Dorothy's words from the "Wizard of Oz", "Gee, Toto, I guess we're not in Kansas any more."
Some have been in La Modelo for two years-no legal help and no appearence in court.
"SIC FRIATUR CRUSTUM DULCE. OBESA CANTAVIT."

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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dwmte says on May 20, 2006, 10:13:

you might say i know the colombian legal system... from the inside out... i spent the night in a d.a.s. slam in belen and trust me, the above observations are basically true...re the arresting officer and what transpires in the beginning. this, regardless the truth or falsity of the issue.

to be short, i would suggest that anyone finding themselves in this or any similar circumstance, think of the arresting and commanding officers as your very best/oldest friend. i also might add, that being forwarned is being forarmed; don't forget it.

dw

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MacGringo says on May 20, 2006, 10:19:

I've got a scarier one than Midnight Express Gator.
I've just finished reading 'The Damage Done' by Warren Fellows.
He was locked up in 'Maha Chai' and 'Bangkwang' in Thailand in the 1970's for smuggling heroin. This book really is frightening!!!!!
Any one thinking of a career as a smuggler should read this first.

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Gomezman5 says on May 20, 2006, 11:02:

Great to hear this And that is why I live in a country where while the justem is far from perfect, it's much much better than anywhere else I know of.

Hell, I have a friend who is a graduate (top %10 of class) of N Y Univ Law School, a top law school by anyones's standard. And what does he do?
He works for the N Y legal aide side society's special criminal defense deivison for people who mules who have been arrested by the DEA and are being prosecuted by the US Attorney. And what do the mules (both Colombians and Americans) pay for his top notch defense? Nothing. They are court appointed lawyers, paid for by the US government. My tax dollars go to defend these losers. So tell me what Latin American country would provide legal services like this for free? My point is made

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 11:02:

Just like you Platano to insinuate that the legal system in the US is worse than that in Colombia in terms of defendants rights. Are you really living so out of touch with reality? I am not talking about the few people caught up in the war on terror (I agree it is a concern that they can be held in Gitmo without a judicial hearing). I am talking about normal people getting caught up in a "normal" criminal situation. Several members of my wife's family are lawyers in Colombia (even though Monpirri doubts that she is Colombian - watching Caracol 24x7 makes him an expert on everything) and believe me, there is no comparison in how differently people are treated. More nonsense on PBH. It should be renamed PBSH with the emphasis on the BS.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on May 20, 2006, 11:25:

In concur with you UC....... what's scary is that when reasonably thinking people like platano start expounding this nonsense, you know this site is going to hell.

To use the Camp Gitmo example as to how the justice system works for the average everyday defendant, is so silly. Even the most liberal people that I know would not make such a comparison.

It's just another example of the GO GO Colombia fantasy folks that are as you put it, "out of touch with reality."

As to PBH being renamed to PSBH....I agree.

As to Monpirri....well, you have to understand, according to him, our points of view are a result of two things, 1. thining incorrectly, and 2. not being educate propery. (ignorance) . But I should take heart. Kernow says we're not ignorant. We just think in a ignorant way. In any event, only when we subscribe to all the propaganda (el tiempo..etc etc) will we really understand what makes Colombia tick. Yea, I should subscribe to the periodicals where more journalists have been run out of the country for telling the truth, than any other country do I know of. Oh I forgot to mention, they were run out with the thread of death, kidnapping.....or something along those lines.

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 12:17:

Would you expect any words different from a FARC Cheerleader??? These comments are coming from the only subversive duck who cruises at an altitude of 30,000 feet! He is just anti-American (denied entry to the US maybe?) and would probably feel more at home in his cage in FARC Central as a hostage.

As far as the people involved in narcotics....you play, you pay! like written above "you are not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy!!!"

Just so there is not another pissing match between G5 amd M, how about giving the Moderator "Time Out" authority along with a "penalty" box (without "due process" and infinite appeals!)...or we can have virtual boxing or armwrestling matches here on PBH....

Morphus...start taking your meds again like a good little patient, bro....=(


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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vladimiro says on May 20, 2006, 12:43:

Colombia vs. US Legal System The other day a Mexican couple in the US left their young child at home while they worked all night cleaning office buildings. There was an electrical problem in thier ramshackle house and thier child died in a fire that night. The couple was arrested the same day and will most likely recieve prison sentences. I saw the mother in court and she was completely destroyed at having lost her child - she needed a doctor not prison. Can you imagine the Colombian authorities being so harsh to a mother that just lost her child in a tragic accident? Or the general public in Colombia being unsympathetic towards her, and demanding that she be jailed as they do in the US? It is not uncommon to get a 20 year sentence for an accident in the US. In my opinion, there is a harshness in the US that is not comparable to Colombia.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 12:49:

... responses UTC: a defendant is one who has been formally charged and can therefore defend against the charges. In Colombia I understand everyone is at some point formally charged which is not the case in other places where indefinite detention is practiced.

G5: your assertion that Platano is a "reasonably thinking" person is questionable to say the least. His credibility was long ago destroyed when he posted both pro-FARC and anti-FARC statements on PBH. Take anything Platano says with a grain of salt.

Morphus: I do not share your point of view about corruption being a good thing. This is actually a defect of the Colombian justice system similar to what I witnessed in New Jersey.

Miguel_Clavo: I respectfully disagree with the characterization of Platano as a FARC cheerleader, although some of his posts have presented the FARC side of things. I actually find that to be a useful service on PBH, as the vast majority do not share his viewpoint. And though his viewpoint at times seems wacky, it is a valid dissenting viewpoint, often easily discredited by someone who is more balanced and knowledgeable. He may be a subversive duck, but nevertheless a loveable subversive duck.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 13:00:

Vladimiro...Examples please supporting your statement.... "It is not uncommon to get life in prison for an accident in the US."
hmm...not so sure of that one, but maybe you know something that can be shared....

and the mother will get all the medical help she needs in prison...and she and the father wont do that again will they??? My concern is for the burning baby, not the parents who cause the death of the child...

but interesting point you made regarding the public opinion...an incident occurred here recently in California, where Mother A had Mother B care for her 2 yr old for a few hours. Both mothers are single parents living in a high cost of living area and receiving public assistance. Mother B had an employment interview appointment at McDonalds...she took her child along with the child of Mother A to the interview. She walked the 2 year old across some railroad tracks and left him on the far side while she returned to get her child in a stroller and bring him to the other side where the 2 year old was standing.....well, sure as shit, a train came, and the 2 year old tried to get to the other side and splatttt!! No more 2 year old.

The mother B was arrested, Mother A wanted to kill her...Public Opinion was split: some demanded lengthy sentences for Mother B, and some pointed to the plight of low-income single parents and the difficulties they face in surviving life in general....End Result: Judge gave her 3 years of probation, credit for time served (about 3 months) and she was released....yes, accidents happen, but i am not aware of any "life sentences" for them....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:00:

vladimiro, The USA has an interesting system of "justice" that creates guilty pleas even for those who are innocent. It goes like this: an offer is made, for example 5 years if you plead guilty or 15 years if you insist on pleading innocent. Result: 2,135,901 are imprisoned in the USA and they are ALL guilty (except for those who were innocent and falsely imprisoned).

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 13:08:

Platano, you are a classic example of a person posting who knows nothing about what they are posting about. Do you have any experience in the US criminal justice system either as a criminal defendant or other participant? I have news for you. Yes, the people who are incarcerated are all guilty. Ok, maybe not all, there are some who have had an extreme case of bad luck. I used to defend people who were arrested and every one who I thought or knew was innocent got off. Some who I KNEW were guilty also got off. Even Alan Dershowitz says that nearly all criminal defendants are guilty of the crimes that have been charged with or WORSE. Our justice system works on this principle: It is better for a guilty person to go free than for an innocent person to be convicted. And by and large that is EXACTLY how it does work!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 13:09:

Spinmaster Loveable Subversive Duckie! "It goes like this: an offer is made, for example 5 years if you plead guilty or 15 years if you insist on pleading innocent. Result: 2,135,901 are imprisoned in the USA and they are ALL guilty."..Platano

No, its actually like this: A plea bargain is made, for example 5 years if you plead guilty (lesser sentence to arrestee, and no court costs to taxpayers) OR possibly the max of 15 years if you plead innocent, and are found guilty by a jury of your peers or a judge. Not exactly as you have spun it...its their choice...and besides, it no fun arresting guilty parties, and so much more fun framing 2,135,901 innocent ones........


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 13:14:

You keep babbling about the Gitmo detainees as though this was the norm. You know it isn't. Anyone who knows anything about Colombia knows that it is possible to be detained there for long periods of time without being charged or to pay off the cops, prosecutors or judges and go free no matter what the crime. How about posting on this corrosive system of corruption? My wife was shocked when I described the US (English) jury system and how a jury had the power to convict or set free. She finds our entire system shockingly lenient and overly protective of defendants rights. Of course she is not a real Colombian or representative of Colombia. No wonder I think its P-BS-H.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 13:15:

BTW, FBI study a while back made an interesting discovery: they found that the ratio for arrests vs crimes commited in the area of burglaries in the US was 12:1.....that is 12 burglaries commited by the same arrestee for every 1 arrest of the same arrestee for burglary....

Well, gotta go now, i need to go frame an innocent person for the illegal treatment of some ducks at the local park.....=)


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:19:

UTC, What I said was a defendant, by definition, is a person charged in a legal action. You are not disputing that are you?

So your charge that I am "a person posting who knows nothing about what they are posting about" is unsubstantiated. At least I knew what a defendant is.

plátano

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:24:

UTC, Once again you are putting words in my mouth: "You keep babbling about the Gitmo detainees..."

If you review this thread you will find I never "babbled about" Gitmo. What I said, and what I still stand by is this: I hope Colombia does not imitate USA practices.

plátano

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:31:

"its their choice" You are making my point for me. They choose to be guilty. That's why all those people in prison are guilty (except for the innocent who are falsely imprisoned).

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 13:31:

You may know the meaning of the word "defendant" but you have no actual experience about the US criminal justice system. I do and so does the other poster (Miquel_Clavo) and we know that you are wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

You ARE talking about the Gitmo detainees. You may want it to appear as though this is the norm in the US criminal justice system but you are as usual, mistaken. How about limiting your posts to what you know about, i.e. have ACTUAL experience? I guess you wouldn't be able to post at all then.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 13:34:

I would have to say that Platano's BS posts along with Monpirri's nonsense are two of the main reasons why it is impossible to take PBSH seriously. Truly, I find the worldsexguide more informative and about matters other than sex.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:39:

UTC, In the USA, at this historical moment, the commander-in-chief has the option of declaring anyone anywhere as "enemy combatant" and awful things can happen to them. I am simply saying I hope Colombia does not imitate that and other USA practices.

If people limit their posts to actual experience... well, what would you be able to say about the FARC? You don't have to have actual experience to have an opinion.

I have experience with the US justice system in New Jersey as an advocate for some Colombian friends who were framed and sentenced to 25 years which they served at Trenton and Rahway. I know those prisons inside and out. I was amazed to see that in the USA the vast majority of the criminals are black and brown though they are a small percentage of the USA population. And to see the corruption of prison staff.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 13:41:

If they are innocent, they can take it to a jury or judge, and if the judge or jury agrees with them, they get set free....liberty...i just hate that word....the defendant doesnt determine who is guilty or innocent....the judge or jury do...its an adversarial system.......


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:42:

UTC, Now you are engaging in personal attack, calling my posts "BS posts"... you are exhibiting a certain level of intolerance of differing opinions.

But, then, you choose to read my posts, just as defendants "choose" to enter guilty pleas. Heaven only knows why.

plátano

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:44:

"its an adversarial system......." Now we are getting back to my original comment which was related to the original post. Not all people imprisoned by the United States are allowed legal counsel, nor are they defendants because they are imprisoned but have not been charged with anything. I hope Colombia does not imitate USA practices.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 13:49:

Once aagain, Platano, with all due respect, being a FARC hostage makes you a former FARC hostage, not an expert of all things FARC or their spokesperson....

"I was amazed to see that in the USA the vast majority of the criminals are black and brown though they are a small percentage of the general population."...after 27 years of arresting people, i have an explanation for this: black and brown arrestees either have an incredible lack of bad luck as they are the only ones stupid enought to get caught, OR, they do most of the crimes! Your choice!! I prefer the latter.....that has been my personal experience....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:54:

So, Miguel_Clavo, you disagree with UTC? UTC says one should only post on what one has experience with.

You are saying personal experience does not qualify one to post intelligently, or, as you so kindly point out in my case, ex-personal experience, which I imagine is even worse.

I do want to thank you for finally acknowledging I am not a FARC spokesperson.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 13:54:

"Not all people imprisoned by the United States are allowed legal counsel, nor are they defendants because they have not been charged with anything."

sorry, but every criminal fcharged for crimes committed in the US is provided legal counsel in the US...enemy combatants are not in the same category....and IMHO have no rights.....other than food and water to survive.... and i agree with UC on this..you are referring to Gitmo....we need more of those facilities.....=)

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 13:54:

Well I hope that the countries who have the English system of justice (Canada, UK, US, Australia, NZ) do not imitate Colombia's corrupt "system" of justice and their practices which do not safeguard anyone's right to liberty, let alone justice.

And I see where you're going with the view that "minorities" are overly represented in the prison population because it's all political and they're not really guilty. I have more news for you since you seem to have trouble perceiving reality. In actual numbers there are more white people in prison and more crimes are committed by whites. As a percentage of the population, minorities are over-represented in the prison population but this is because (drum roll) they commit more crimes. More minorities use drugs and due to poverty etc. they commit more crimes to support these habits. I, for one, think it's stupid to lock people up for drug offenses but nevertheless they are crimes.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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vladimiro says on May 20, 2006, 13:55:

Another example I remember when a Mexican taxi driver had an epelyptic fit and hit a police car. The policeman was badly burned and deformed. The Mexican recieved something like 20 years in prison. I don't think you will get a 20 year sentence for an accident in Colombia, or anywhere else in the world.

"My concern is for the burning baby, not the parents who cause the death of the child..." - I know, that was my point. I believe the parents would have recieved more sympathetic treatment in Mexico.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 13:58:

do not imitate Colombia's corrupt "system" of justice UTC, finally something we can agree on. I also hope no other justice system in the world imitates Colombia's corrupt system.

Maybe they have prisons just for white folks somewhere in Connecticut, cause I sure didn't see many in Trenton or Rahway.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 13:58:

Platano, it's not just a question of "differing opinions". Your opinions are based on your extreme political views while ours are based on my years of experience as a criminal defense attorney and Miquel's as a law enforcement officer. You simply do not know what you are talking about, as usual.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 14:01:

You're right, Vladimiro. Mexico is definitely to be emulated. This is what I thought when the Monterrey cop stopped me to shake me down for some money (Texas plates) while drinking a beer on duty. Even Mexicans despise their system.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 14:02:

UTC, I truly apologize if my ignorance irritates you so. I will defer to you and Miquel's greater wisdom on criminal justice issues, though I do think it is extreme to say "Gitmo....we need more of those facilities....." though apparently that comment does not come out of an extreme political view and I must be the one, the ignorant one, who is mistaken.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 14:03:

I disagree with this point: posting opinions, regardless of ... experience is a good thing,,,freedom of speech and for the sake of education...it is up to the reader to value or not to value the content of the writer......however, i have also noticed that it seems you fancy USA-bashing for some reason..not based on anything other than a dislike of anything USA....i like the fact that you are pro-Colombia, just we differ in that i feel that what is needed to improve the situation in Colombia is the option of Nuking Farc ..totally reasonable IMHO.........


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 14:07:

I represented a black man who had been married to a white woman and he had been charged with kidnapping their child, a felony. He was the non-custodial parent. Even in that lily white county of Maine, where I don't even think 10 blacks lived, he was found innocent. I guess it's a good thing that some people let the facts speak for themselves instead of putting a political spin on everything. According to Platano's view, the jury should have convicted him since we know that a black man can't get a fair trial in America and certainly not from an all-white jury in Downeast Maine.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 14:08:

Miguel_Clavo, I don't think I engage in USA-bashing "not based on anything other than a dislike"...

If it were a simple case of USA-bashing, I wouldn't bother to make arguments and provide evidence. I'd just say bad things about the USA. The USA is a wonderful land of economic opportunity: 12 million Mexicans can't be wrong!
:)

Be careful about suggesting the use of nuclear weapons in Colombia. It is a suggestion that some might not receive well.

plátano

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 14:10:

"...since we know that a black man can't get a fair trial..." A black man in USA has as good a chance as a black man in Colombia of getting a fair trial.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 14:10:

Please provide source information... "I remember when a Mexican taxi driver had an epelyptic fit and hit a police car. The policeman was badly burned and deformed. The Mexican recieved something like 20 years in prison. I don't think you will get a 20 year sentence for an accident in Colombia, or anywhere else in the world."

i know for a fact that in CA the most you can recieve under determinate sentencing which most states have, is 5- 7 years IF the person DIES (involuntary manslaughter).....so, if there was a 20 year sentence, he may have been a 3-Striker ( but that is 25 to life) or other aggravating circumstances, or your information is based on a newpaper account and not court documents.....Crimes with Intent have significantly longer sentences than accidental crimes......in every state....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 45 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 14:11:

Vladimiro....."La Mordida" ..ring a bell? Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 14:17:

Morphus, That was the experience of two Colombians in New Jersey: public defender urges them to plead guilty to get 25 instead of life in prison. They had telephone transcripts of wiretaps that were incorrectly translated by a Puerto Rican police official, then the jury selection systematically eliminated EVERYONE out of the jury who had any knowledge of Spanish (they eliminated whites, blacks and obviously latinos), anyone who could listen to the tapes and tell that the transcript was an incorrect translation, a frame job they didn't want anyone to understand or be able to challenge based on understanding the translation was a sham.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 14:20:

Reading the National Enquirer again, Platano? "A black man in USA has as good a chance as a black man in Colombia of getting a fair trial." (Does OJ Simpson sound familiar?) That is pure horse fodder from Fantasy Island....pure BS....the whole system is designed for the defendants protection and advantage, regardless if he is black, yellow, communist, pink, mexican illegal, subversive duck, or god forbid...a lobbyist!....statements like that are job security for those NAACP assholes...they would not have a job if they couldnt run around spreading that horseshit....and then they would have to really work for a living..imagine that!?? They are no better in my book than the Feminist Nazis and people who run around talking their bullshit about Colombia.....


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 14:24:

You are right, Miguel_Clavo... The system works in favor of the defendant (if you are lucky enough to become one) and you can illegally buy all the drugs you want and get away with it... zero prison time. Ask defendant Rush.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 14:25:

Hmmmm...sounds like you have plans for a fictional book.... "That was the experience of my friends in New Jersey: public defender urges them to plead guilty to get 25 instead of life in prison. They had telephone transcripts of wiretaps that were incorrectly translated by a Puerto Rican police official, then the jury selection systematically eliminated EVERYONE out of the jury who had any knowledge of Spanish (they eliminated whites, blacks and obviously latinos), anyone who could listen to the tapes and tell that the transcript was an incorrect translation, a frame job they didn't want anyone to understand or be able to challenge based on understanding the translation was a sham."

i will just wait until i can get it on DVD or NetFlix has it available....Yes, we are a crisis/conspiracy driven people......sure sounds like your friends are fucked then! Shouldnt have done anything illegal in the first place....

BTW....nukes were wishful thinking, not a realistic proposal....=)..i wouldnt want my platanos to glow in the dark at night! =-)




Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 45 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 14:26:

I dare say that there is a lot more to the story that the carefully edited portions that you are disclosing Platano. Why were there wiretaps? How was it that the defendants were even involved in this case?

Jury selection doesn't work that way, Platano. There are dismissals for cause or without cause. You only get a certain number of dismissals without cause so you just can't eliminate all blacks or all women from a jury. Normally you only get 3 but I don't know what the rule is in NJ. If the transcript was in fact, incorrect, their lawyer should have challenged it and had their own translation made. It seems to me that their main complaint is ineffective counsel rather than the justice system.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 14:31:

"i will just wait until i can get it on DVD or NetFlix has it available. ..Yes, we are a crisis/conspiracy driven people....."

You see, this is why even sharing from your own personal experience is worthless. You can say the narrator is delusional, creating a fictional account (surely driven by extreme political views!) or, on the other hand, you can say: "but that was just an isolated incident and doesn't apply to the majority of defendants". Either way relating personal experience doesn't count for much.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 14:33:

I agree..the problem was inept counsel for the def..... which like you say is a foundation for appeal...its zero prison time for people who do that and dont get caught too...but, i dont know of any first time offender getting prison time for possession....the norm is drug diversion (classes to educate you on the evils of drugs), unless of course, its a for sales case or drugsmugglins....usually its county jail time and not state prisons...big difference betweent the two.....this is the same for all class and color of people.....well, if you are rich, maybe a little different! thats why i hate to be poor!!!


.Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 14:45:

UTC... You can read the whole case if you like: Pemberthy v. Beyer, 19 F.3d 857 (3d Cir. 1994), reh’g denied, 19 F.3d 857, 873 (3d Cir. 1994), cert. denied, 513 U.S. 969 (1994).

Pemberthy and Moncada were convicted in state court of various drug offenses at a trial in which a key issue involved English translations of Spanish-language testimony and wiretapped conversations. At their trial the prosecution used “peremptory strikes” – a method by which prosecutors may remove jurors without explanation – to remove five jurors who spoke Spanish from sitting on the jury. After they had been tried and sentenced, Pemberthy and Moncada challenged their convictions arguing that striking Spanish-speakers from the jury had been a pretext for striking Latinos from the jury. The prosecution responded that their strikes had been motivated by their concern that those who spoke Spanish might be less able to rely on translations as opposed to their own interpretation of Spanish testimony and transcripts. The state appellate court denied Pemberthy and Moncada’s motion, finding that the peremptory challenges were not based on race but instead on issues related to the use of translations of taped Spanish conversations as evidence in the case. On review, the federal district court ruled for Pemberthy and Moncada and found that the striking of Spanish-speaking jurors represented an unconstitutional exclusion of jurors based on race or national origin.
On appeal, in an opinion written by Alito, the Third Circuit reversed the decision of the district court. Alito found that Pemberthy and Moncada had not shown that the prosecution’s decision had been motivated by race or national origin and that the district court should have adhered to the findings of the state court.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 15:02:

So you would have us believe that Pemberthy and Moncada were two regular guys who happened to get snared by the police? They were actually talking about buying some shipments of tuna and the translator got confused and thought atun was another word for cocaine. Why were they even being wiretapped? I venture to say that these two guys had probably been involved in certain activities and had the misfortune to get caught this time. I could be wrong however without knowing more about what fine upstanding citizens they are.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 15:03:

Sorry for the delay....was BBQ-ing in the backyard... i am having BBQ'd subversive duck, platanos, and non-alcoholic beer since it is Morphus' off day for beer....just kidding...my way of bonding i guess, Platano..dont take it personal...i dont...i value the experience of others, but when it doesnt add up to mine, then i will try to find out why....but after 27 years of testifying in courts in CA, arresting all the people you claim to be innocent, i have never framed an innocent person, and have not ever seen the conspiracies that you are claiming....in fact, the reverse is true for me, as i have probably released more people who were guilty and should be sharing a cell with Bubba........

from what i have read from your last post, the story of your friends isnt over with yet...i am suprised that the issue of the compentency of the defense lawyer was not called into question...or the accusation that somehow there was collusion between the defense counsel and the prosecuters....but i would think that the judge would see through that, unless he was involved.......but i seriously doubt the case hinged on this in the determination of guilt...you are honing in on the issues on appeal to reverse the conviction...the whole trial is not subject to review on appeal..only the issues brought up by the appellate lawyers.....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 15:10:

I've done some reading on the individuals involved in that case and they were not altar boys. Far from it. Did you mention that the case in question involved the importation of 13 million dollars worth of cocaine? I didn't think so. Or that the two individuals in question had been under surveillance for a long time due to their continued involvement in drug importation? I didn't think so. Or that the translations had been done by Colombian as well as Puerto Rican Spanish speakers? I didn't think so. Or that the law enforcement personnel involved in the investigation and their subsequent arrest were also Latino Spanish speakers? A minor detail.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 15:19:

May Day! May Day! Im in a tailspinnnnnnnnn!!!!!!! Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 15:20:

Wait a minute...these were friends of yours??????? Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 15:25:

Both of you, UTC and Miguel_Clavo, are jaded... Based on your long years of experience with the bad guys you no longer seem able to believe that someone could make phone calls from New Jersey to Colombia, talk to a little sister who asks them about getting crayons as a gift, then have the taped transcript indicate the conversations was about kilos of cocaine (with intent to distribute) instead of really being about crayons. Result: 25 years in prison.

As long as no one on the jury can understand the conversation and confirm it was indeed about crayons, the jury has to rely on the translation which indicates it is really code about cocaine shipments. Nope, they must have been guilty, (this is Colombian also: "quién sabe en que se metió", i.e., blame the victim) they must have been doing something, they must have a history of bad behavior that they didn't get caught for before, so that justifies getting them this time.

Imagine being arrested in Colombia (the topic of this thread) and having the police use tanscripts of your conversations in English which are then translated into Spanish. The transcript indicates your conversation was really about drug smuggling, but no one who can understand English is able to discern the translation is a frame job... you get the picture.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 15:35:

I pride myself on not being cynical nor jaded...i treat people the way i would want to be treated...with respect unless i do something to make them not respect me...i certainly would not want to be framed and spend the rest of my life in prison, and believe me, neither would my work associates....but if it was as simiple a case as you put forth (crayons, a confusion on translation, etc) i would agree with you, however, that simple of a case is rare to say the least....one has to consider the totality of circumstances, which i think that you choose not to involve yourselve in here....and all the people that our investigations clear of wrong doing never make it to court, or the media...ever think of that factor? just the ones we determine are possibly guilty get sent to court for a determination of guilt....

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 15:37:

The rest of the story... As Paul Harvey says... see UTC's post above. He seems to know all the details about the altar boys.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 15:38:

My point exactly..Tinto..we need to know the whole story... Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 15:43:

yup, just as i thought....OJ is innocent tooo, BTW.. just a simple run of bad luck for your friends.....the prisons are full of such unlucky people...jeffery dahmer, charles manson, richard ramirez, scott pederson......damn unlucky!

well, all i can say is better luck next time!

but seriously, do you honestly feel that i would be party to such injustice? that was not my motivation for a career (but not for much longer! Yeehaa!!) in law enforcement....


Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 15:44:

This is the same claim juancegomez often makes... "We need to know the whole story"... but I'm afraid Peter's storage space couldn't hold it nor would people really be interested in reading it. They were convicted so they must have been guilty. Everyone in prison is guilty (except for those who are falsely imprisoned).

plátano

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 20, 2006, 15:50:

If they were not guilty there are a hundred and one legal aid groups (many of them funded by the very government that put them behind bars and certainly funded with tax deductible donations) that ought to be tirelessly working on their case.



Anyway...how did it turn out? Did they serve the full 25 years or get released early?

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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Gomezman5 says on May 20, 2006, 15:50:

Good Job.....UC I have to tell you guys, I agree with every word of every post UC wrote on this thread.

If I may add, I have done my share of criminal defensw work as well. And I can tell you, as UC alluded to, I can't tell you how many of these guys get arrested, and charged, but the case either gets pled down to a much lesser offense or the case is dismissed due to evidentiary problems.

Prosecutors have what is know as prosecutorial discretion. In other words nobody, absolutely nobody can tell a prosecutor what to do with a case.

Example.
A client I had stole a piece of jewelry worth over $4000...a felony in any state in the US. The store did not have a video camera. The security guard was a poor witness at trial and due too my expert cross examing (sorry it's true) I got the guy to contradict himself on the description of the defendant. It was not fatal to the case because he was able to identify him, but I was able to show that he was confuses. After court that day, the prosecutor offered a plea down to misdemeanor theft with a reccomendation to the judge of a sentence of probation. we knew the judge, being a liberal and former public defender would accept the plea and sentence. And bingo...like that, I guy who should have gone to prison for a long time, got a huge break.

Example number two.
A lady I know had her purse snatched while waiting for a bus. She identified the guy about half hour later after police picked him up based on her description of him. So what happened? The state's attorney declined to prosecute because he had an aliby as to where he claimed to be, (which sort of checked out but not exactly as to the time) and because the guy did not have the purse or any items in it. So they guy got off with her money.

By the way, both guys were black. People always want to blame things on Racism. Look, if your the victim of a crime, and you claim that the guy who robbed you, stole from you, hit you with his car....or whatever is black....than he is black and that's it. Case closed. It has nothing to do with racism.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 15:52:

Yep, bad luck... wrong addictive drugs... They should have chosen OxyContin, Hydrocodone and Lorcet.

plátano

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 20, 2006, 16:05:

or been filthy rich, a celebrity, or politically connected!!!! Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo.......faltan 41 días.....

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"So Many PBH Potatoheads.......So Little Time"......El Titiritero (The Puppeteer).....www.slapdoll.com

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 16:10:

Tinto, I don't know how the sentence turned out... Either they are still there... or, they were released after serving part of the 25 years. The case did set precedent that will last longer than the sentences.

"Alan Zegas, an attorney in West Orange, New Jersey, who represents defendant Gabriel Pemberthy, said the effect of the decision will be 'to deny Latino defendants a jury of their peers.' By excluding Spanish speakers, he said, 'you are by definition excluding the entire Latino population from the jury.'"

plátano

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BE1900 says on May 20, 2006, 16:52:

ARREST OF FOREIGNERS IN COLOMBIA HEY RIC:nothing would happen if a U.S. citizen is arrested in COLOMBIA, Mr.URIBE has an agreetment with the US not to prosecute AMERICANS in COLOMBIA, as you can see we Colombians have a great PRESIDENT which protect our country.

no comments

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utopiacowboy says on May 20, 2006, 17:20:

More nonsense. A sizeable portion of the Latinos here can't even speak Spanish. So much for being excluded from a jury because you speak Spanish. The real reason they were excluded was because instead of using the transcript they would listen to the tapes and put their own interpretation on it. This case was part of the material used by Maldef to fight against Judge Alioto's nomination to the Supreme Court. Never mind that nearly everyone involved in the case was Latino. If those damm Latino cops would stop railroading their Latino brothers into prison, the world would be a better place. The funniest part of the whole episode was how many phone calls it took to arrange the importation of the "crayons" into the US. You just can't be too careful with 13 million dollars worth of crayons. If I had a dollar for every convict who claimed he was framed, I wouldn't be working now.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 17:27:

... "...instead of using the transcript they would listen to the tapes and put their own interpretation on it..."

Translation: Do not rely on the primary source of evidence, rely on police transripts which may or may not be accurate translations of the primary evidence.

plátano

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lpdiver says on May 20, 2006, 18:13:

well Jesus lives In prison. Of that I am sure because every convict finds Jesus there...and promptly leaves him behind upon release.

The legal system is in many ways too lenient here in the US. By the time someone actually goes to prison they have had so many contacts with the legal system it boggles the mind. There are exceptions of course but ther are exceptions in all locations of the world.

I would legalize all drugs. Take a forty hour course and I'd give em away free at the local pharmacy. Yes the would be bad thing happen to people; but, they happen already.

It has been quite a while since I read the Colombian constitution but it seemed to be extremely "similar" to US law.

The answer to the original question seems to be keep your nose clean.

T

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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Gomezman5 says on May 20, 2006, 18:15:

Tinto RE: RICO Good point. Did you know that as short as the RICO statute is, it has been subject to volumes of interpretations by the federal courts at all levels. At the same time, increasingly over the years, it has been applied in instances that I am certain that Congress never anticipated seeing its application. On the other hand, the statute itself is so vague, that maybe that's exactly what they did intend. Interestingly enough, the RICO statute has been used to indict and convict members of congress themselves. I am not so sure they expected its application to be quite that broad. I am no expert on RICO, and I am sure know one on this site will give you an ounce of reliable info on it either. I have seen it applied in conflict ways.....depending on what circuit the matter is being litigated.

Local public defenders are not so great. But the ones working in the federal defender program are all top notch attorneys. It's that the PDs are no good per se, it's just that their case load stretches their time and resources thin, thus preventing them from putting on a good defense . But as UC says, most of these really are guilty so a good defense lawyer is not going to help them much.

BTW...Thanks for deleting a certain thread. I did notice. So, while I may criticize, I know how to complement too....as I have done in the past..... :)

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 18:15:

If you ever have to do hard time in Colombian prisons... Colombia is committed to help you realize your social, family, work, and spiritual potential. This became law in Colombia in 1993 (Código Penitenciario y Carcelario (Ley 65 de 1993). It is part of what INPEC calls P.A.S.O. (Plan de Acción Sistema de Oportunidades).

INPEC will help you learn, too, so you can use your prison time constructively. The law mandates that you have access to various courses of study including natural sciences, environmental sciences, social sciences, history, geography, politics, art, ethics and human values, physical education, religious education, humanities, SPANISH, foreign languages, mathematics, and informatics. (Artículo 23 de la Ley General de Educación).

Enjoy!

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on May 20, 2006, 18:20:

Just curious lpdiver: "It has been quite a while since I read the Colombian constitution but it seemed to be extremely "similar" to US law."

Aside from the similarities across the constitutions of all liberal democracies, I don't see how the Colombian and US constitutions are similar AT ALL. Would you care to expand on this?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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lpdiver says on May 20, 2006, 18:22:

Like I said...modeled after the american system. And they are both flawed. Prison should be about hard time and not wanting to return to that horrible place. Not a place to gain higher education.

If you get rid of the drug related charges then you could deal with the remaining populace in a better way.

Also a lot of people in prison should have been in mental facilities but we changed that law also. Pity.

T

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 18:36:

Since in prison you have lots of time on your hands... You might be fortunate enough to serve time in one of the 98 prisons in Colombia that provide library services. So, if you don't want to take classes, you can still read books.

Enjoy!

plátano

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lpdiver says on May 20, 2006, 18:40:

your comment about liberal democracies crossed my mind. however, I have only actually read the US and Colombian constitutions and didn't want to drag others into this.

I don't intend to debate it has been three years since I read the constitution of Colombia. It was just a statement that as "I recall" while reading the Colombian constitution it seemed very similar to the US constitution and "all liberal democratic constitutions" to me anyway.

Now in practice...I cannot say. Like anywhere money talks. But as for the average guy...I think I'd rather be facing charges in the US than Colombia.

T

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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Sr Tertius says on May 20, 2006, 18:44:

Sorry to insist on the same point, but Lpdiver: "modeled after the American system." I'm sorry but I don't see this at all, regardless of the flaws on either side. There have been some recent changes to the penal system that resembles the accusatory system in the US and Britain, but aside from that, I fail to see any other similarities.

To pick an example, most of the fundamental rights ennumerated in Title II, Chapter I, are highly incompatible with US law (i.e., no death penalty, the notion of social responsibility of communication and property, work and assembly as fundamental rights) not to mention Chapter II (the mere notion of "social, economic, and cultural rights" are, as far as I know, alien to the US system). And so on.

That is, at least, my impression.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 18:48:

In Colombian prison you can get your ICFES... and, if you have the inclination, you can do university study in Colombian prisons.

There are eight universities that allow you to study in their programs in Colombian prisons: Santo Tomas, Universidad Nacional Abierta y a Distancia (UNAD), Universidad del Valle, Corporación Universitaria del Caribe CECAR, Universidad Francisco De Paula Santander, Universidad del Tolima, Universidad del Quindío y la Universidad Católica de Risaralda.

plátano

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lpdiver says on May 20, 2006, 18:53:

The toll of the death penality will be found in the streets of both countries. what prcentage of people are put to death in the legal system of the US. Yes it is there but very minimally.
And some of the items are not in our constitution but are none the less culturally practiced.

Putting it in print does not make it so.

As an example the right of "pursuit of happiness" not a guarantee rather an opportunity.

Sure you can go line by line and find many differences...but as a whole still very similar in spirit.

T

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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Sr Tertius says on May 20, 2006, 18:54:

Didn't mean to be contentious It's just that I am a big fan of the Colombian Constitution, despite its most recent modifications, and I missed the replies while I was writing. It seems to me that if some of its articles were implemented in the US, right-wingers would spin their heads off in outrage, no?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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lpdiver says on May 20, 2006, 18:58:

Probably But they will find something to spin about none the less, no?

t

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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platano says on May 20, 2006, 19:02:

In the words of a prisoner in a Colombian prison... You might be able to make friends in prison. Here is an interview with one of the prisoners enrolled in an accounting program through Universidad de Valle:

ESTABLECIMIENTO: EPC. Cali Villahermosa
EDAD: 33 años
FECHA DE INGRESO: Abril 14 de 1997
CONDENA: 25 años – 9 meses
UNIVERSIDAD DONDE ESTUDIA: Universidad del Valle
CARRERA: Contaduría Pública 57
SEMESTRE: Ultimo

¿De dónde surgió la idea o la iniciativa para hacer estudios de educación superior en la cárcel?

El deseo de superación personal, por iniciativa propia y por supuesto del dragoneante de la sección educativa.

¿Qué hechos y/o situaciones le han facilitado su decisión de estudiar?

A nivel de la familia, el apoyo incondicional en aspectos importantes como comunicación con la universidad. A nivel personal, la disciplina constante en la labor estudiantil.

¿Cuál cree debe ser el aporte o la actitud de las instituciones de educación superior para promover más el acceso a la educación superior entre la población carcelaria?

Crear mecanismos de difusión con los cuáles los detenidos conozcan los programas que ofrecen las universidades y buscar la manera de que los detenidos accedan a la información necesaria para las tareas bien sea usando Internet u otro medio.

plátano

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Rubiazo says on May 20, 2006, 21:17:

I have a great idea Avoid contact with the police in any way shape or form
-In the USA
-In Canada
-In Europe
-In Mexico
-In Colombia
-Everywhere else you may be.

There aren't too many things I can think of more unpleasant than a run-in with the criminal justice system in any country, no matter where you are. And no, funds frozen under RICO can not be used for ANYTHING, as a matter of fact they are basically GONE! Very sad, because up until that stupid moronic legislation the 4th Amendment really did set the USA apart from the rest of the world in terms of freedom.

On paper, both countries agree that it is better for TEN guilty people to go free than for one innocent to be falsely incarcerated, in practise, well, it's a bit like playing russian roulette! God help you if the bullets in the chamber and they pass it to you!

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lpdiver says on May 20, 2006, 23:37:

I agree Rubiazo... My coworker Jared from Houston (North Mexico) summed it all up like this..." Dude! If ya hang around with F at cked up people F*cked up sh!t happens."

Maybe the original poster need a new group of pleple to hang with.

This probably would address the OP concern best.

T

Remember what the monkey says, "Fuck money it's free"

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Gator says on May 21, 2006, 07:04:

Perhaps... Platano could get arrested in Colombian then fill us in on what happened. Then the wining would stop.

Sr. Usted es un “sabelotodo,” o un solo Un Ave de Mal Aguero

"SIC FRIATUR CRUSTUM DULCE. OBESA CANTAVIT."

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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platano says on May 21, 2006, 09:03:

Sr. Usted es un “sabelotodo,” Gator, eso yo no sabia.
:-)

Creo que "ave de mal agüero" es una expresión basada en la superstición. Ciertos sucesos, como la presencia de ciertos animales, prognostican la mala fortuna o la tragedia. Mis esfuerzos no justifican esa caracterizacion. Trato de resaltar lo positivo de Colombia.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 21, 2006, 09:40:

You're right, Rubiazo. The current regime's distaste for the Constitution is something that will be rectified in November. I haven't voted Democrat in 20 years but heads are gonna roll.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on May 21, 2006, 09:48:

Well,UC.....I understand what you are saying But should the entire Republican party be punished because of GW's let downs? I almost wish I had voted for Kerry. He has the congress on his side, and still can't move his legislative agenda. But my point is, House Speaker Pelosi sounds as bad or worse than President Kerry. So, I while I say that there may be a lot of angry Republicans out here, the alternative sounds, and is worse.

Forget about Bush and don't worry about punishing fellow Republicans. Unless you"re with Bush and you don't like the Republicans that are not going along with his agenda. However, I have not met any of those people.

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Gator says on May 21, 2006, 10:23:

platano, I Guess... ave de mal agüero the closest English translation would be "Chicken Little." You know, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!'

"SIC FRIATUR CRUSTUM DULCE. OBESA CANTAVIT."

"Bene, cum Latine nescias, nolo manus meas in te maculare" .

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Rubiazo says on May 21, 2006, 10:53:

Bird of bad omen i think in English we say something other than 'bird' though maybe?

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platano says on May 21, 2006, 12:35:

I think the meaning in English would be... bearer of bad news.

plátano

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utopiacowboy says on May 21, 2006, 22:09:

Well, Gomezman, I despise the Democrats and everything that they stand for but I think the Republicans disregard for the Constitution in the name of national security and their refusal to do anything to wean us off foreign oil (which really does affect our national security!) calls for a response. Maybe if they get a good pasting in November they'll wake up and realize that we're pissed!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on May 22, 2006, 10:00:

No.....that thinking is dangerous UC You want to bite your nose to spite your face. For example, you're an attorney and you understand this better than anyone. If Kerry would have been elected, those two Supreme Court seats, Alito and Roberts....if Kerry would have had the opportunity to fill those seats, we would have had 2 more very liberal justices appointed. In fact, I know people who voted for Bush just on that issue alone. There are going to be a few more vacancies in the near future as well. You and I depart when it comes to some of the extraordinary measures that Bush is taking to protect our country. In 3 months, it will be 6 years without another attack. To not give Bush at least part of the credit, if not most of the credit, either directly or indirectly would be both wrong and short sighted.

I said it many times and I will say it again, The US Constitution is not a suicide pact. It was not a document that was created to allow people to come into this country and than hide behind the protections granted under it, as they plan, and in fact implement their next attack with the goal of destroying the country.

So many people are affraid that some of Bush' policies might cause them to sacrifice individual liberties. This is indicative of how quickly people have forgotten about 9/11. Just wait until the next attack, it might be worse. It might devistate the economy even more than 9/11 did. As far as I am concerned, when there is a war, all bets are off. Our leaders must do what they have to do, and I mean whatever they have to, to protect the national security of this nation. The Founding Fathers never anticipated that the Constitution should be applied in instances where the very survival of the nation as a whole is at stake.

Bottom line, vote Reuplican. If you will note, most Republicans are very disappointed in his second term performance. That said, you should not punish the entire party, including those that agree with you, because of a leader that has gone astray and let us down. Have you heard the rhetoric coming from the Democrats? Come on man!!!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on May 22, 2006, 10:41:

This is interesting and all, but please keep it to Colombian politics or U.S. policies that affect Colombia.

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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caslug says on May 22, 2006, 10:42:

Gman.. "The Founding Fathers never anticipated that the Constitution should be applied in instances where the very survival of the nation as a whole is at stake."

Remember they wrote the constitution LESS than 10 yrs AFTER a war, which was a war OF survival(war of independence). All the founding farthers lived under British law prior to 1776, and found it oppressive. To their credit they didn't want a new nation to live with those oppression in war or not.

Also, because of "terrorism" which can last decades if not hundreds of years. Does this mean we suspend the constitution(or parts of) for that long? Licoln suspend part of it for 4 yrs.

If this is a war of "national survival" then why doesnt the govt ask us citizen to make individual sacrafices: higher taxes, military draft(Civil War/WWI/WWII/Korea/VN), rationing, etc.,? If the govt did that, then the reasoning for any sort of limiting of personal freedom would be more easily fathomable.

Also, I think you're not giving the US much credit. Another attack on US maybe devastating, but it won't bring the US to it's knee's. The war on Iraq is a BIGGER drain on our economy than 9/11, because it's on going. WHile 9/11 paralyze the nation for about a week, then things were back to normal.

I think that republican/democrat politicans are fairly similar(unispire & only semi-compentent). It's a sad commentary to democrats when the only reason people MAY boot the replubican out is because they want change or "send a message". The democrat do NOT have a inspire policy nor leader, there's no up-and-coming leader in their ranks.

US History tells us that ALL political parties rise and fall. Republican rode the wave after Civil War only to lose power eventually, Democrats rode the wave from 1932-1952, before losing out. What's kinda of ironic is since 1932, democrat is usually equated to big govt spending, govt in people's lives, higher taxes, etc., yet GWB replubicans party has increase govt spending(huge deficit) and intruded in people's lives/belief(phone tapping/terri schiavo). I think things go in circle, democrat will take over the for a while, maybe even do a good job for many years. Then get corrupt by power and get hammered by republican again.

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caslug says on May 22, 2006, 10:43:

oops.. sorry tinto.. didn't see your post.. until after i type! LOL!

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Colombiche says on May 22, 2006, 10:44:

Wiretaps What's the rest of the story? Did the guys have previous drug convictions? Did they talk about "crayons" in all of the wiretap sessions? I find it hard to believe that a single instance of confusion over crayons/cocaine would lead to a 25 year conviction. There must have been a lot more evidence. -- Tinto


Why the CIA wanna watch us?
Colombians and Haitians
I ain't guilty, it's a musical transaction....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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caslug says on May 22, 2006, 10:49:

the difference in legal system.. between the US and COL is..

in COL you pay(off) judges/police to get off..

in US you pay high price lawyers to get off..

in BOTH countries, if you dont have money, then too bad..innocent MAY be thrown in jail.

in BOTH countries, if you HAVE money, then great.. guilty MAY go free! LOL!

"money makes the world go round"- the MC from "Cabaret"

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Gomezman5 says on May 22, 2006, 11:08:

I disagree Caslug.....you are wrong. My friend in New York is defending a bunch of Colombian a**holes,who were issued tourist visas. They abused the privilidge of having a visa to come visit, so they could come here and move their drugs. They barely speak English. As soon as the DEA catches them, they get a free lawyer from Legal Aid's Federal Defender unit. That's right...they are for free and they are as good or better than any lawyer you could name. These lawyers all went to Ivy league law Schools, and that is all these guys do. Drug cases and more drug cases. They know the system better than anyone. And if was not for these lawyers, these arestees/defendant would not have a dime and would never be able to defend themselves.

Legal Aid and similar organizations have helped millions of people throughout its history

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caslug says on May 22, 2006, 11:42:

Gman.. are you saying.. that ALL legal aid or public defender graduated top of their class and from the best law school in the country? I'm not saying that their are not lawyers like your friend, but i dont think EVERY public defender has your friend background and skill. Beside, even if they did, to the best of my knowledge, the public defender office does not have unlimited funds to mount a defense AS a high price law firm. Are you saying with limit budget, your friend could've gotten OJ, Michael Jackson or Kobe Byrant scott free? Doesn't it cost money to bring in expert witnesses?

Anyway, I agree with you that as a defendent, i much rather take my chances with US justic system. Unless i was very rich, then I prefer COL or other foreign countries where the dollar goes much further! LOL! Because in the US, even high price lawyers cannot always guarantee success. Look what happen with Martha Stewart! LOL!

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Rubiazo says on May 22, 2006, 11:48:

More food for thought http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2006-05/22/content_596442.htm

The US has the highest percentage of people incarcerated out of any nation on Earth. So the other side of the coin is in Colombia, you may just not get caught, period!

As usual, people's criticisms of Colombia are right on, but please fucking spare us the accolades of the USA. The USA is fucked up too. And it's not a pissing contest. I really don't know how people can look around and actually think 'gee, things are going pretty well here, I'm very happy with the way the country is being run.'

And I can GUARANTEE you the only reason we haven't been attacked again is because they are waiting ON PURPOSE. They will attack again WHEN AND HOW THEY WANT. We are doing sweet fuck all to stop them. You'd have to be absolutely delusional to think otherwise.

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Gomezman5 says on May 22, 2006, 14:24:

caslug No.....not all legal Aid or Public Defenders graduated at the top of their classes....but most were in the top %20 and in the case of Legal Aid attorneys, no less than top %10 unless you are a minority. But remember, they were not only at or near the top percentile, they also went to good schools. This is especially true of Legal Aid attorneys. Most came from wealthy families and go to very good law schools. I'll put it to you this way, if you went to an Ivy league law schol, or the likes of a Northwestern or University of Chicago, or Vanderbilt, (which are similar to Ivy league schools) do you think a lawyer who is in the bottom quarter isn't extremely bright. Trust me, I know what the entry requirements are for these places are, and 9 out of 10 applicants (like myself) who otherwise had several law schools to choose from, could not have gotten accepted to any of those schools.

We got off subject, but my point was a simple one. It speaks volumes about our country when a non citzen who abuses his/her visiting priviledge can come to this country to violate our laws and get top notch, or close to top notch legal reprsentation. That does not happen anywhere else in the world.....

And Rubi...you are right. We do have way too many incarcerated. Most of those incarcerated are there on drug offenses. And....if I must say, this drug war has been an abysmal failure. It was lost long ago, and to be honest, if we would have given up this war, Colombia would have been better off as well.

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Monpirri says on May 23, 2006, 10:58:

UTC Tell me here for the record when and where I have specifically uttered remarks about your wife? This is the second or third time that you keep bringing your wife into this arena.
You are using her as your shield, my debates always have been with the author who posts here under the name of Utopiacowboy, and I believe that is you!
You came across as a person with little or no knowledge about Colombia and that is why I recommend traveling to the country and exploring it, I mean, not just sitting on a bench in Medellin.
Yep, watch Colombian news to learn about Colombia, if you need 24/6/365 to learn or to catch up and by all means please do 24/6/365 or join the Colombian Club in San Antonio and begin to build a Colombian network and perhaps you learn something there.

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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utopiacowboy says on May 23, 2006, 11:16:

When I take advice from the likes of you, I'll disembowel myself in a ritual act of hari-kari.

A Colombian network? What, my wife and her family and friends are not a large enough Colombian network? I guess by network you mean watching that wretched Caracol twenty four hours a day. Sorry, dude, but I think I could spend some time hanging out in the square in Belen or at the tollbooths in Los Cedros and learn more in an hour than you learn in a year watching the idiot box. Maybe you should do some travelling yourself to Monteria, where I could introduce you to some people.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Monpirri says on May 24, 2006, 12:20:

What happened? Last time I read the post you were about to commit hari-kari?
Hey man, do what ever rocks your boat and Ok I take your invitation to Monteria to meet some patriotic colombians, besides I have never been there.

Monpirri AKA "Yo me llamo Cumbia"

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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lawyerincolombia says on Jul 14, 2006, 11:55:

Lawyer in Cali Colombia I am a certified lawyer in Colombia. My name is Carlos Arturo Dorado and I can help to you about inmigration and legal problems in Colombia.
I am located in Cali Colombia.

Best regards:
Carlos Dorado
http://nicelatinladies.com/abogado.html

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lawyerincolombia says on Jul 14, 2006, 11:57:

Lawyer in Cali Colombia I am a certified lawyer in Colombia. My name is Carlos Arturo Dorado and I can help to you about inmigration and legal problems in Colombia.
I am located in Cali Colombia.

Best regards:
Carlos Dorado
http://nicelatinladies.com/abogado.html

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Lostgringo says on Jul 15, 2006, 10:11:

I don't think any society is perfect. Using extreme cases to prove your point on the issua at hand is just wrong. You cannot say any 3rd world country has a better criminal justice system than Canada or the USA for example. You are comparing apples to oranges. And by the way, the criminal justice system in the USA and Canada did not just happen over night. It has been a long hard battle to get where we are now. No, it is not perfect, but it is the best we have at this time. In our part of the world, you are innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent in Colombia and many 3rd world countries.

It is common knowledge that the more mony you have the better your chances are in the criminal justice system and in life. This also has to do with longevity in terms of the health care system (especially in the USA verses Colombia). And the more money your family has, has alot to do with your opportunities and success in this world regardless if you are in Colombia, the USA or Canada.

Yes there is legal aid. But don't think for a minute that most of the cream of the crop legal lawyers aspire to work in legal aid. The poorer you are the less likely you are to have good representation in court. This is not something new. Not all, but in most cases money does talk. Yes, you can point out extreme cases but you are not comparing the majority of cases. And, detaining prisoners of war is an extreme example and really not a comparison at all.

In terms of people choosing to do crime. Doing crime is not always a black and white issue. Opportunities whether it has to do with the color of your skin, stature in the community and on and on, all share a part in DETERMINING whether or not you will turn to crime. If any of us knew exactly what created crime we could be very rich very fast. In my opinion there is no such thing as "true" free will or "determinism" when it comes to crimianl behaviour. Generally speaking it is the grey area inbetween. Our behavior is often "determined" by the way we are socialized and the opportunities presented to us...this "helps" determine how we behave. In my opinion we are free to chose within these boundaries. And, I agree with UT's comments regarding this issue (I am choking on that one), but he is on the mark (IMHO).