Are You A True Colombian?

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 25, 2008, 17:01:

bumpety-bump

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

adrimm says on Apr 25, 2008, 17:15:

What is a Colombian born/raised* in exile?

I'd put anyone with Colombian heritage into the category of whatever their homeland actually is plus with *some* Colombianism.. the amount ranging based on factors like if parents integrated with new community, or stayed within the Colombian communtiy of whereever they landed.

* raised includes your living memory. So if one were born in Colombian and moved elsewhere before late toddlerhood then you where raised elsewhere.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 25, 2008, 17:23:

Yes, I know. The question is rethorical.
Born in Colombia, raised elsewhere, but by Colombian parents making sure that you spoke Spanish and liked your sancocho. Went to Mass on Sundays, had a Primera Comunión when you were seven, dressed in white as the Bride of Jesus, your fiesta de quince and learned how to dance salsa and reggaeton? Do you know how to eenie meanie miney mo in Spanish?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

la campiña says on Apr 25, 2008, 17:51:

colombians are in general very proud people, proud of colombia and also of which department they come from. Each department ( county in england, state in the US ) has its own flag and anthem. Returning colombians from the UK or US are quite arrogant especialy if their grasp of english is good and their bank balances are healthy, !! just an observation

aztec says on Apr 25, 2008, 17:59:

"As son as you establish a residence outside of Colombia you start a process of transformation, a process of adaptation, a process of acculturation. You will never be the same again." Desideria

Must agree with you on this one. That describes my wife exactly. Doesn't mean she is better or worse. She is just different.

I like to think she is an amalgamation of what is best in both cultures.

Robert Jorge says on Apr 25, 2008, 18:00:

Being "born in exile?" When I think of that, I picture a child born of parents that were forced out of a home country due to political strife or war. Of course there are a number of Colombians that have left Colombia due to fear of violence, political strife, war, etc - but I am sure a large majority of people who have left Colombia and settled in other countries did so for other reasons ... love, job opportunities. I wouldn't refer to their kids as children of exiles. My dad moved to the US as a child, from post war Germany with his family. He certainly doesn't think of himself as an exile. And I definitely do not think of myself as a son of an exile. If I had to label myself, I would call myself a son of a German immigrant who is now a US citizen. It is kind of cool to know where my heritage comes from, but I am an American, not an exiled German.

MaFe says on Apr 25, 2008, 18:10:

Robert Jorge very well put.....
I too know where my heritage come from, and it's nice to embrace that along with your American nationality. well put!

I am not an exile, nor does my mother consider herself an exile. My mother has lived over 24 years out of Colombia, and she is still as Colombian as the day she left.

I was born in Colombia and am not catholic, I wasn't raised with Colombian music, I don't eat most of what Colombians eat, can barely dance salsa, I can barely do most things they do in Colombia...does this make me less? Has it changed me? NO!!

I am still Colombian, my passport says it, my blood says it, my heart says it!

Also, there are so many people in colombia who can't do the things you listed, they are not catholic, some don't eat meat, some don't dance....

Not every Colombia in Colombia thinks the same!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

Robert Jorge says on Apr 25, 2008, 18:57:

And I will add I can no longer say a sentence in German. My brain is like a rewriteable CD. It can only hold so much information. Then, new information re-writes over the old data. Therefore, I speak as good in Spanish as I probably did in German as a child. Virtually nothing retained at age 37 in German.

Lcacique says on Apr 25, 2008, 19:28:

Exile:
1)
a) Enforced removal from one's native country.
b) Self-imposed absence from one's country.

2) The condition or a period of living away from one's native country.

3) One who lives away from one's native country, whether because of expulsion or voluntary absence.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Robert Jorge says on Apr 25, 2008, 22:55:

I am not going to argue with Lcacique's given definition of "exile." I am sure it was taken from a dictionary. But, generally in the English speaking world, "exile" means somebody who is outside of their native or chosen country or land due to force, involuntary circumstances, something negative.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 00:29:

I'm not a native English-speaker; when I write "exile" I mean No. 2; the condition of living away from your country.

There are plenty of Colombians who are living in Sweden who have claimed political asylum due to persecution in their home country; they would fit even the category of forced removal from their country. Some of them have simply used that argument to obtain residency here but not all.

MaFe, we are all individuals. CK is a good example of a Colombiana who does not fit the stereotype. The things I mentioned are just a tiny example of the shared experience of a Colombian girl girl growing up in Cali, for example. Which does not mean that all Caleñas have the same experience, just that most of them do.

I have met Kat1 in person and the first thing I thought when I met her was "gods, this girl talks, laughs, acts so Colombian!" and yet she has lived in the UK for the longest time, has adapted well and shares many of the habits and values of a Brit, hmm. Welsh people.
I'm sure you would give the same impression; we don't need to pick people apart to find the core of "Colombianess" in them, it shines right through.

Now, I have lived in the States too and met many Colombians who lhave lived a long time there and many second generation; some of them are more some less "Americanized" (I have to use the term in citatation marks, because I believe firmly that Colombians are also American to start with). Yet, compared with people who never left they are different, each and every one of them that I have met.

I believe it depends, not only if your family helps and supports you to have a firm cultural identity the school and peers, the society around you molds you into the person you are. Your cultural identity is puzzlework; you may look Colombian, talk Colombian, love Colombia from the bottom of your heart and yet think like a Gringa or Europea. Which is neither good nor bad.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 01:00:

I think we all true Colombians but what people really failed to understand is that he new environment we live in it will affect the way we think. NO MATTER WHAT no matter if we eat arepas all day, or listen to vallenatos, to be a Colombia you don't have to like those things my dad hates vallenato and some Colombian food, he also criticized Colombia, some people I know have said they wish they were born somewhere else and so on, we the ones who have been living abroad sometimes have a more understanding the situation in Colombia somehow we appreciated more our culture and we are a bit more open minded to situations, we bring a bit of the new culture, we change somehow, we do.

I even see it even reading this blog, i see the different between the Colombians who live in Colombia and the ones abroad. the longer you stay in that country the more your way of thinking is different, you will noticed all of that when you go back to Colombia.

some of course have change more than others, specially is all your family is in The USA or UK or wherever, i for example what keeps me stronger with my roots is that my whole family is still there apart from a sister and they hardly travel abroad, but i see how my way of thinking have change a bit even my dad told me so, but this not all bad.


Desi wrote "even if people in Colombia who never left their country differ culturally from one region to another there's usually one thing they share:" I agree with this.

As i said this is not bad you are still COLOMBIAN but you do change as soon as you live the Country.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 03:10:

This is slightly off-topic, but I've been asked that same question many times, about my Finnishness. I haven't lived in Finland since I was a teenager, but I'm a Finn, born and raised. I don't need to wave a flag, like Finnish music, eat Finnish foods or drink like Finn to be one. It says "Sweden" in my burgundy EU passport.

Am I different from a Finnish woman of my age and educational background who never left Finland? You bet!

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 03:44:

What happens with Colombian who live aborad or were raised abroad they cling more into the culture we sometimes become over-patriotic.. thing that we couldn't care when we used to live in Colombia we care know.
Me personally yes i had changed, although i am not over-patriotic, i do appreciated more things about our culture and cling into some thing from there now,like music when i was living in Colombia I hardly listened to Colombian Music mine was Pop Rock,you would rather see dead wearing a Colombian football shirt or waving like a maniac the Colombian flag or going to every Colombian festival, maybe because i was there i took everything for granted or as normal.

Cerealkiller says on Apr 26, 2008, 04:58:

Mafe I just read your comment on the other thread. I was raised in Colombia, I have lived in Colombia about 9 years without interruptions and then I go back stay 1 year every few years.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

bufalo says on Apr 26, 2008, 05:38:

Not just Colombia, but any person any part of the world - you leave the world you know about growing up, spend time in another place - you change. When you go back you see things about the world you grew up in and see them as pathetic, you also see things that are marvelous. You've changed, it happens.

Could be leaving your neighborhood, state, country, even a relationship.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

adrimm says on Apr 26, 2008, 08:22:

Bufalo... very true and insightful.

I had some Colombianism in my life growing up (primarily the Spanish & primera communion bride-dress no food, no quinecanera), but I don't identify as Colombian... Similarly to RJ I identify as the child of an immigrant, in my case a Colombian immigrant.

My mother is still immensly proud to be Colombian, but acknowledges that in culture, values, and expectations she now caught somewhere in the middle between both cultures. No longer quite Colombian, but still always a foreigner in Canada.

Exiles/expat is interesting becuase you can have parents that are exiles/expats, while their child born & raised whereever they are is not an exile/expat... until the parents take the child to their own homeland.

slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 08:31:

is it just me, or does anyone else find this "colombian-ess" comparison thing amusing?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

NataliaV says on Apr 26, 2008, 08:37:

I find it amusing too slyguy. Needless to say, I have been reading all the posts cause I am a bit curious what others think of the topic. However, I don't feel the need to "debate" who is more colombian than others. I am proud of who I am and don't care what others think about my colombianess or lack thereof. And who am I to judge what makes someone colombian....it is what they feel they are and what they feel connected to know matter how they came about it.

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 09:02:

NataliaV says on Saturday April 26th, 2008 8:37:

I find it amusing too slyguy. Needless to say, I have been reading all the posts cause I am a bit curious what others think of the topic. However, I don't feel the need to "debate" who is more colombian than others. I am proud of who I am and don't care what others think about my colombianess or lack thereof. And who am I to judge what makes someone colombian....it is what they feel they are and what they feel connected to know matter how they came about it.

Very well put Natalia!

Cereal Killer, I wasn't asking you a question, (in the other thread) I believe Kat was the one who assumed you weren't Colombian?
I was agreeing with what you wrote! =)

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

romy says on Apr 26, 2008, 09:37:

These nationalistic sentiments have been explained academically as 'imagined communites' by Benedict Anderson. What bufalo mentions is also in accordance with that theory because the image one generates (of Colombia in this case) is static, therefore it's a shock when confronted with the reality that things have changed.

"The imagined community is a concept coined by Benedict Anderson which states that a nation is a community socially constructed, which is to say imagined by the people who perceive themselves as part of that group." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_communities)
Anderson, Bendedict (2006). Imagined Communities, New, London, New York: Verso. ISBN 9781844670864.

There is also the concept of 'nostalgia', that people wish for the good old days.

"Nostalgia describes a longing for the past, often in idealized form. Nostalgia may or may not also be known as homesickness." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia)

Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:15:

Most of the Colombians that I have met left for two reasons: economic and violence. In general, the one's who leave for love are also usually escaping less than perfect economic situations and/or violence. Of course, there are a host of reasons that people leave their country, however.

So here is my two cents (or maybe just a penny): embracing other cultures is a wonderful thing. To be locked in a tiny, homogeneous bubble is a lost opportunity to experience what is beautiful about this world, and life in general: diversity. Embracing other cultures is not a process of subtraction, it is a process of addition.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:15:

I think that this question is true to every nationality and communities. Just look at how in Colombia, every region is different. If a person from Bogota goes to live in Pasto, it's a complete different environment and customs.

Just because one adapts to another region/countries customs, doesn't necessarily mean that you have changed. You have actually grown as individual because you were able to adapt to the new customs and maintain your traditions.

I don't agree that people born over seas or who leave their country are different. Of course everyone changes; everyday we all change as people. Our countries/communities change everyday.

Whether it's Colombia, US, UK, Russia, whatever the case; everyday people change, the country changes! Politics, people, culture, styles, traditions...constantly changes.

Colombians in Colombia transform everyday, the country changes everyday. Colombians in Colombia are not all the same.

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

romy says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:26:

Lcacique- I know you said "most" so perhaps I'm an exception as I'm here because of school, which could potentially be described as an decision based on economics, but I would argue it's a different scenario. There are actually quite a few people that would fall in this category, I've came to realize that quite a few of the kids that I went to school with in Cali are now studying abroad, though I don't know if their circumstances are due to political reasons which is possible.

I agree with you 100% on "embracing other cultures is a wonderful thing. To be locked in a tiny, homogeneous bubble is a lost opportunity to experience what is beautiful about this world, and life in general: diversity. Embracing other cultures is not a process of subtraction, it is a process of addition." thus my love for travel and desire t live in diferent areas of the world.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:46:

NO MAFE YOU READ WRONGLY,, I KNEW Ck WAS RAISED AND BORN IN COLOMBIA, but as she said she doesn't need to like ajiaco or vallenato to show she is Colombia, this is not a question if you are more Colombian than others, this is about as soon as you leave your country you will think different YOU'RE BOUND but this is not a bad thing, but we are different we, think different from Colombian who have never been outside Colombia is that difficult to understand?

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:52:

Another example my nephew was born in Colombia, he was moved to the USA WHEN HE WAS 4 he is 10 now, my sister is showing him the Colombian culture his father is American, he is going to be raised in America, even if he is Colombian and no matter how much my sister teach him show him our culture he's never is going to be the same as my niece who also is 10 born in Colombia and living in Colombia, no matter how much Colombian culture my sister will show him my nephew no mater how many time my nephew goes to Colombia he won't be the same as my niece who was born and bread in Colombia



Another example my kids, my son who is nearly as close in age as my other nephew, totally different, and i have show my son like adrimm's mother everything about my culture, he speaks Spanish, goes to Colombia every year but he is never going to be the same as my Colombian nephew born, bread and raised there

I agree with bufalo this is not just Colombians, also applied to Americans living in Colombia for an extensive amount of time of their children being born in Colombia they are never going to think like an American who has never leave America.

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:54:

kat1 says on Friday April 25th, 2008 10:49:

CK i assume you parents are American or British don't know but that's what i mean you think different from an American girl or British assuming your parents are British that have never been out of her country, you think different because you have been raised in another country you think more Colombian no matter if you don't like all Colombian stuff, but you grew up there, made friend there and were bombarded with Colombian culture 24/7 so its bound to affect the way you think.


Good job Kat on going back and changing your post.....you did ask her....
=================================

kat1 says on Saturday April 26th, 2008 10:46:

NO MAFE YOU READ WRONGLY,, I KNEW Ck WAS RAISED AND BORN IN COLOMBIA, but as she said she doesn't need to like ajiaco or vallenato to show she is Colombia, this is not a question if you are more Colombian than others, this is about as soon as you leave your country you will think different YOU'RE BOUND but this is not a bad thing, but we are different we, think different from Colombian who have never been outside Colombia is that difficult to understand?

I hope this isn't directed towards me because I have NO problem understanding.
I still think you are wrong...reread what you wrote on the other thread.

EVERY Colombian living in Colombia is NOT the same,
just because you are a Colombian who lives in Colombia and have never left; doesn't mean that you think like every Colombian in the country...is this too difficult for you to grasp?

A person can completly embrace to a new culture, and still maintain their roots..

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

webmanco says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:56:

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:59:

i have never change my post never do that.. maybe you understood wrong, i don't know where CK parents are from, but i think they are not Colombians yet CK was born and raised in Colombia so what i was saying was ASSUMING her parents were American she does not think think like an American born and raised in America and never been out of America, she is Colombian she think Colombian because she was born and bread there and live there,,, well that was i gather since i knew CK

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:00:

btw i did ask her were her parents come from but haven't heard a reply yet, but i know CK looks very European or American.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:02:

mafe you wrote
"EVERY Colombian living in Colombia is NOT the same,
just because you are a Colombian who lives in Colombia and have never left; doesn't mean that you think like every Colombian in the country...is this too difficult for you to grasp?"

Desi wrote "even if people in Colombia who never left their country differ culturally from one region to another there's usually one thing they share:"

I agree with desi. there is the answear

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:04:

Now when i said the statement above about CK this was her answer

"You bet your ass I was bombarded, Im a big time beaner now!!! I do love arepas though, cant live without them...Parents are not American or British, god forbid :P

so she understood what i was talking about.

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:05:

kat1 says on Thursday April 24th, 2008 12:45:

Rocinante
The Colombian born and bread abroad are differents from the Colombians in Colombia who never been abroad the same goes to
the Colombians that were taken when kids to live abroad are also different
and the Colombians who went to live abroad when older (like me) are becoming a bit different too our mentality change a bit.

======================

Nope...even the ones living in Colombia are different...
again broad statement!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:08:

Cerealkiller says on Friday April 25th, 2008 10:42:

I didnt know about Colombiche. It sucks ass that she is gone, she has always been one of my top 5 favourite posters :(

In regards to 'colombianness'...how do you define that? I am Colombian and couldn't cook even if my life depended on it. Did not grow up eating bandeja paisa or ajiaco, as a matter of fact I hated beans and did not learn to eat them until I moved to central america, hence I only eat black beans. My parents never listened to vallenato or cumbia or salsa, I have two left feet when it comes to dancing, I don't eat meat or fried anything, I hate aguardiente and Im not a catholic. Does that mean then than someone who has never lived in Colombia and does all those things can all of a sudden be 'more' Colombian than me? Because that's just counterintuitive.
===================

CK stated it very well, I agree with what she is saying!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

webmanco says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:09:

Kat 1
Mafe 1

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:10:

they are but the Colombians living in Colombia have a common denominator.

i will let other to follow the debate i need to hear from others.BTW read adrimm's post this is a good example of what i am talking about.

adrimm says on Saturday April 26th, 2008 8:22:


I had some Colombianism in my life growing up (primarily the Spanish & primera communion bride-dress no food, no quinecanera), but I don't identify as Colombian... Similarly to RJ I identify as the child of an immigrant, in my case a Colombian immigrant.

My mother is still immensly proud to be Colombian, but acknowledges that in culture, values, and expectations she now caught somewhere in the middle between both cultures. No longer quite Colombian, but still always a foreigner in Canada.

Exiles/expat is interesting becuase you can have parents that are exiles/expats, while their child born & raised whereever they are is not an exile/expat... until the parents take the child to their own homeland.

we change the new culture and environment somehow affect us again this is not a bad thing. WE STILL COLOMBIANS TRUE COLOMBIANS BUT WE DO THINK DIFFERENT

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:13:

"kat1 says on Saturday April 26th, 2008 11:10:

they are but the Colombians living in Colombia have a common denominator."

And Colombians living abroad don't Kat?
We all do...we have colombia in our hearts, and blood...
This is my point...

Colombians in Colombia are not all the same, (they think differently) Colombians living abroad are not all the same..(think differently too)
I have simply stated that I am Colombian even though I wasn't raised there.
What do I have in common with every Colombian in Colombia and overseas?
Colombian blood, and Colombia in my heart....

END

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:14:

MAFE I HAVE TO BREAK TO YOU SORRY

Cerealkiller says on Friday April 25th, 2008 10:42:

I didnt know about Colombiche. It sucks ass that she is gone, she has always been one of my top 5 favourite posters :(

In regards to 'colombianness'...how do you define that? I am Colombian and couldn't cook even if my life depended on it. Did not grow up eating bandeja paisa or ajiaco, as a matter of fact I hated beans and did not learn to eat them until I moved to central america, hence I only eat black beans. My parents never listened to vallenato or cumbia or salsa, I have two left feet when it comes to dancing, I don't eat meat or fried anything, I hate aguardiente and Im not a catholic. Does that mean then than someone who has never lived in Colombia and does all those things can all of a sudden be 'more' Colombian than me? Because that's just counterintuitive.


I answer

kat1 says on Friday April 25th, 2008 10:49:

CK i assume you parents are American or British don't know but that's what i mean you think different from an American girl or British assuming your parents are British that have never been out of her country, you think different because you have been raised in another country you think more Colombian no matter if you don't like all Colombian stuff, but you grew up there, made friend there and were bombarded with Colombian culture 24/7 so its bound to affect the way you think.

CK answer back


"You bet your ass I was bombarded, Im a big time beaner now!!! I do love arepas though, cant live without them...Parents are not American or British, god forbid :P

she knows what i am talking somehow you lost a bit in the whole debate.

webmanco says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:16:

Mafe 2
Kat 2

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:30:

Maybe we all misguide but the title of the thread... i am not saying someone is more Colombian than others what i am saying we do think different from Colombians who have never been outside Colombia and were born and bread there.

Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:30:

romy...I definitely recognize that there are many reasons why Colombians are abroad. One of my close friends came here to study as well.

I'm going to duck out of this post, it can only turn ugly.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:38:

I am also saying that even Colombians in Colombia are different.

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:40:

Just because one adapts to another region/countries customs, doesn't necessarily mean that you have changed.

adaptation IS change, unless our dictionaries conflict....;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:48:

i don't agree slguy, you do change you might think you haven't but you do and is when you go back to your country you noticed you have change a bit, your way of thinking and seeing things but again this sometimes is for the better.

Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2008, 12:13:

kat1: slguy was saying that you do change. Adaptation = Change.

More importantly though, who cares if one person is "more" Colombian than another person. As if there was some way to actually measure such a thing.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 12:53:

"Just because one adapts to another region/countries customs, doesn't necessarily mean that you have changed"

i forgot the quotation marks the 1st time, kat. lacacique is correct, as usual..

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 14:41:

Lcacique says on Saturday April 26th, 2008 12:13:

More importantly though, who cares if one person is "more" Colombian than another person. As if there was some way to actually measure such a thing.


EXACTLY!
Once again, Colombia is in your heart, that is all that matters!
Muy bien LC!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

MaFe says on Apr 26, 2008, 14:48:

kat1 says on Saturday April 26th, 2008 11:14:

MAFE I HAVE TO BREAK TO YOU SORRY

Cerealkiller says on Friday April 25th, 2008 10:42:

I didnt know about Colombiche. It sucks ass that she is gone, she has always been one of my top 5 favourite posters :(

In regards to 'colombianness'...how do you define that? I am Colombian and couldn't cook even if my life depended on it. Did not grow up eating bandeja paisa or ajiaco, as a matter of fact I hated beans and did not learn to eat them until I moved to central america, hence I only eat black beans. My parents never listened to vallenato or cumbia or salsa, I have two left feet when it comes to dancing, I don't eat meat or fried anything, I hate aguardiente and Im not a catholic. Does that mean then than someone who has never lived in Colombia and does all those things can all of a sudden be 'more' Colombian than me? Because that's just counterintuitive.


I answer

kat1 says on Friday April 25th, 2008 10:49:

CK i assume you parents are American or British don't know but that's what i mean you think different from an American girl or British assuming your parents are British that have never been out of her country, you think different because you have been raised in another country you think more Colombian no matter if you don't like all Colombian stuff, but you grew up there, made friend there and were bombarded with Colombian culture 24/7 so its bound to affect the way you think.

CK answer back


"You bet your ass I was bombarded, Im a big time beaner now!!! I do love arepas though, cant live without them...Parents are not American or British, god forbid :P

she knows what i am talking somehow you lost a bit in the whole debate.

=================================
You really can't carry an argument...
my point is that you assumed her parents weren't Colombian....

So you didn't break anything...
NEXT!
===========================

I responded to this already;

kat1 says on Saturday April 26th, 2008 10:46:

NO MAFE YOU READ WRONGLY,, I KNEW Ck WAS RAISED AND BORN IN COLOMBIA, but as she said she doesn't need to like ajiaco or vallenato to show she is Colombia, this is not a question if you are more Colombian than others, this is about as soon as you leave your country you will think different YOU'RE BOUND but this is not a bad thing, but we are different we, think different from Colombian who have never been outside Colombia is that difficult to understand?
======

What did CK writre?
again here it is....

Cerealkiller says on Friday April 25th, 2008 10:42:

I didnt know about Colombiche. It sucks ass that she is gone, she has always been one of my top 5 favourite posters :(

In regards to 'colombianness'...how do you define that? I am Colombian and couldn't cook even if my life depended on it. Did not grow up eating bandeja paisa or ajiaco, as a matter of fact I hated beans and did not learn to eat them until I moved to central america, hence I only eat black beans. My parents never listened to vallenato or cumbia or salsa, I have two left feet when it comes to dancing, I don't eat meat or fried anything, I hate aguardiente and Im not a catholic. Does that mean then than someone who has never lived in Colombia and does all those things can all of a sudden be 'more' Colombian than me? Because that's just counterintuitive.
========================

You are clearly stating that Colombians overseas, are measured different, CK, and I are asking how is that possible?

I know 100% that all Colombians living in Colombia DON'T think alike...they too are different. I, like many other Colombians raised out of Colombia share one thing with every Colombia all over the world "COLOMBIA"

END

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

bufalo says on Apr 26, 2008, 14:50:

wow, I posted something that made sense....(does this mean I'm redeemed from the "Pulled Pork Withdrawal" coment I made???)

But in seriousness, it all made me think. I can go back to that streetcorner, look at the two telephone poles half a block apart, but I'm never going to be the twelve year old kid playing two-had-touch football with his buddies again (allthough I'm probably still the worst player).

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 18:38:

About CK...correct me if I'm wrong but I believe she has German/Jewish background. She's just as Colombian as anybody born and raised in Colombia. It's the whole shared experience of growing up in Colombia that somebody born raised abroad does not have and it makes HUGE difference. An example; I have two children; father is Colombian, they have lived outside Colombia since the age of 5 and 6. They have been raised in USA and in Sweden. Do they think like their Caleña cousin of the same age who never left the country? Nope, they're a world apart. Yet, if anybody asks them, they say that they are Colombian, speak Spanish, Catholic...well, not really, even if they had their First Communion, love a good bowl of sancocho and enjoy an aguardiente. They have a multiple cultural identity, not just single identity like their cousins.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Robert Jorge says on Apr 26, 2008, 21:40:

I am late to get back to the thread - but Desi, I appreciate that English is not your first language. That fact actually occurred to me when I was responding above. I can totally understand why somebody not extremely fluent in English would choose to use the word "exile" over expatriot - or whatever. I hope you don't think I was being a smart-ass. But like I said, I just wanted to clarify that most Colombian expatriates are not exiles. Most were not forced to leave Colombia. Most, like your husband and my wife, left because of love - or other reasons.

billyb says on Apr 26, 2008, 22:06:

thanks RJ, i was also wondering about the use of the word EXILE to represent all colombians living abroad instead of expatriots as would commonly be used, as it makes a world of difference.

Lisa Zee says on Apr 26, 2008, 22:19:

Billy you are back!, I was wondering where you were, what is a Saturday night without posting here with you, the weekend would be lost! LOL

billyb says on Apr 26, 2008, 22:24:

The thing, I think, Desi has a hard time understanding, which is understandable in itself given the fact that she is not colombian, is that being colombian is something that is manifested by what is in your blood and felt in your heart and not by where you currently reside. I mean take Kat for example, even though she has picked up some POSH, jeje, english mannerisms, I think of Kat as a quintessential colombian woman, and on the other hand, you can have a foreign woman living in colombia any number of years and never really aquiring that essence.

Robert Jorge says on Apr 26, 2008, 23:03:

99% of the expats in Colombia are dudes. I am probably being conservative with my unsubstantiated statistic.

billyb says on Apr 26, 2008, 23:11:

Thanks Lisa, the feeling is mutual, jejeje. RJ, i would agree with you on that.

adrimm says on Apr 27, 2008, 00:16:

First, I can't say that despite a lot of reading, other than knowing she is a kind, compassionate and very intelligent person I can't say that I know Kat super well (this is the internet)...BUT given her experience and obvious comfort with another language and culture I do NOT think that Kat could be the same quintessential colombian woman as a quintessential colombian woman who has never lived abroad.

As Kat thinks that I probably have a similar perspective to that of her children I suspect that she is probably like my mother, initially pure Colombian, but from absorbing, understanding, & even adopting culture and values of her new land is now unique blend of Colombian + other. In addition to seeing Colombia through the lens of a Colombian, I am sure (as my mother does), evaluates certain aspects of Colombia very differently to what a quintessential Colombian might.
.

billyb says on Apr 27, 2008, 00:37:

yes kat, as well as most of us, have absorved foreign influences, kat the english and I the US and english for example, but both of us grew up in colombia and were formed by colombian family values, which we know are ovewhelming, although thoroughly appreciated, and most of us return to colombia regularly, like kat for a few months at a time, and me and some others several times a year, and of course we don't filter everything the same way, but as Mafe pointed out, colombians living in colombia don't either. But the over-riding factor is that colombians will alwasys be colombians, no matter where the fok they are. Actually same goes for Italians, Germans, Servs etc......and anybody contadicting that has no cultural center.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 27, 2008, 02:41:

adrimm says on Sunday April 27th, 2008 0:16:

First, I can't say that despite a lot of reading, other than knowing she is a kind, compassionate and very intelligent person I can't say that I know Kat super well (this is the internet)...BUT given her experience and obvious comfort with another language and culture I do NOT think that Kat could be the same quintessential colombian woman as a quintessential colombian woman who has never lived abroad.

As Kat thinks that I probably have a similar perspective to that of her children I suspect that she is probably like my mother, initially pure Colombian, but from absorbing, understanding, & even adopting culture and values of her new land is now unique blend of Colombian other. In addition to seeing Colombia through the lens of a Colombian, I am sure (as my mother does), evaluates certain aspects of Colombia very differently to what a quintessential Colombian might.

Exactly adrimm, and i know your mum love Colombia as much as my mum and I know you mom is a "TRUE" Colombian but she will think different from my mum who although have been just on holiday in the UK she lives full time in Colombia.


What people is thinking that you became less Colombian I AM NOT SAYING THAT WHAT I AM SAYING YOU WILL THINK DIFFERENT.

This not just apply to Colombian, also to other nationalities, example My mother had a boss he was German his wife Colombian they had two kids born and bread in Colombia, although they used to go to Germany to see their Paternal grandparents and german side of the family and his dad used to show them the traditions and German culture this kids were living 24/7 the Colombian Culture they think like a Colombian they were different from kids Born, bread and raised in Germany no matter how much traditions and culture his German father showed them or how much holidays they spent in Germany they though different from Kids who were born and bread and raised in Germany even if this kids (the ones born, bread and raised in Germany )had a set of Colombian parents living in Germany they are living 24/7 the German Culture.


As I said my nephew who is Colombian but raised in the USA he is going to think different from my niece who was also born in Colombia and raised in Colombia
my niece will be bombarded with Colombian tradition, culture, TV, music, food, friend, language, dialects, different customs of Colombia 24/7

My nephew will be bombarded apart from some Colombian thing that my sister will teach him, he will bombarded with American TV, traditions, language, friends, other types of customs from there. which i think sometimes this is not bad.

Adrimm is a good example. this doesn't mean she is less Colombian or she doesn't love Colombia. but she is totally different from a Colombian bron bread raised and still living in Colombia.

My kids are another example they will never be the same as a Colombian born raised and still living in Colombia no matter how much they google the answers On internet :)))

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 27, 2008, 04:27:

Billyb, there's nothing there not to understand. I don't need to be Colombian for that. You don't need to be Colombian to understand that it's in NO WAY DIFFERENT for people of any other nationality to have that kind of feeling for the country of their birth in their heart of hearts, It's not a special patrimony for just Colombians to feel it. We all have basically the same feelings for the same things, just a different way of expressing them, ingrained in our idiosyncracy and culture.

I have never said thatyou cannot have these deep feelings for the country of your birth if you're an expat, an exile, whatever. I call expats people who have lived abroad for a great number of years and adopted the customs and habits of their new host country, but that's just me. I would never call anemployee of a multinational company stationed in a foreign country an expat and yet that is the common usage of the word. I call exiles everybody living out of their own country, for whatever reasons. But as I already said, I'm not a native speaker of English so hang on there and forgive me my mistakes.

I would like to repeat, at this time, the basic thought I had fromthe beginning of this thread (and a couple of others on this same topic); yes you do actually change in exile. Sometimes this change or adaptation is language-bound: I know latinos who become a totally different person when speaking English, like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Cerealkiller says on Apr 27, 2008, 04:28:

Kat1 my dad is German and my mother is from Spain. Im sorry I didn't get back at you earlier.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

MaFe says on Apr 27, 2008, 09:01:

billyb says on Sunday April 27th, 2008 0:37:

But the over-riding factor is that colombians will alwasys be colombians, no matter where the fok they are.

Exactly!

"No comment" is a splendid expression. I am using it again and again." -Winston Churchill

MitchAlvarez says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:10:

Interesting post. We have discussed this topic several times but its always fun to read the various opinions.

I will say one thing, I dont think anyone has the right to call anyone a true colombian or not.

Ive read a lot of very smart comments but I disagree with a couple.

I wont jump into who i think is a bit fake here but from my part if you have mi patria hermosa in your heart then thats a good start.






QUE VIVA COLOMBIA HP!!!!!!!!!!!

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

romy says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:20:

"I dont think anyone has the right to call anyone a true colombian or not"
funny how you just said I wasn't a true Colombian in a different thread...

MitchAlvarez says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:34:

deje de ser chismoso parcerito.

vos tenes fotos de jugadores argentinos en tu profile donde no se menciona ni una sola vez que eres colombiano. Despues leo tus posts donde no haces nada mas que atacar al mejor presidente que a tenido colombia en mucho tiempo.

pero en ningun momento te dije que eras o no eras colombiano.

si te consideras colombiano muy bueno para usted pero me parece muy peculiar tu colombianidad y patriotismo de a raticos.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

romy says on Apr 28, 2008, 12:16:

Mitch a vos quien te dijo que Colombia=Uribe? porque esa persona esta equivocada...
Como ves en este thread, cada Colombiano tiene diferentes perspectivas. Ademas que te hace que tenga varias nacionalidades?

Rubito says on Apr 28, 2008, 14:06:

I'm 50% Italian by blood, but as far as I"m concerned blood is platelets, plasma, and blood cells, NOT culture. My blood keeps my body going, it doesn't define me as a human being in ANY sense. My ancestors can all kiss my ass as far as I'm concerned :P I'm making a clean start of it. I don't want any of their cousin-fucking alcoholic ways.

I don't consider myself Italian AT ALL except for when trying to get my Euro passport. I speak Italian decently and know how to cook some Italian dishes, but I'm not an Italian CULTURALLY at all anymore than I am Colombian or Dominican. I'm not really Canadian anymore, I've left 99% of my Canuckness where it belongs in that miserable excuse for a country, and I'm hardly your typical American.

Why would anybody want to let a country or any other external force define them anyways?

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

goin_south says on Apr 28, 2008, 14:08:

I don't know whether it is me, feeling a lil more like a true colombian, or... is it them?
I do find myself, suddenly living with three colombians, having to make sure I speak english, upon leaving the house.

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

Lauthra says on Apr 28, 2008, 15:54:

I would like to believe that, despite my strong westernization, I am a true Colombian. However, I am a Caleña Chiviada...

Nato (='.'=)

MitchAlvarez says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:17:

miamor tu puedes ser lo que sea....

sea somo sea vos lo que si sos es una muñequita preciosa

si todas las caleñas chiviadas fueran como vos... no pues ahorita mismo empacaba maletas.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

Rubito says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:33:

Mitch= true mysoginist ;)

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

MitchAlvarez says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:35:

had to google that one up:

–noun: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.


i think im quite the opposite; i love women.

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

Rubito says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:36:

Why are you talking down to them then?

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

MitchAlvarez says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:37:

? have you been drinking?

Tengale miedo a una huelga de mujeres o a una escacez de aguardiente. :)

Lauthra says on Apr 28, 2008, 17:53:

No, no, no, no, no, there is no way I would call Mitch mysoginistic!

Nato (='.'=)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 29, 2008, 02:20:

Lauthra you are one of the very few raw material here in PBH :)))))