Are Colombian students more disrespectful to foreign teachers?

djhyro says on Feb 11, 2006, 07:15:

I'm feeling this Hi, I'm a 15 tear old Colombian student. I have had 2 foreign american teachers in my student life. The first teacher was a really good person, but, when she losed her control, she hitted my partners, like, throwing them to the floor, or pushing them out the classroom, or punching them! The second teacher was a socialist - mind f&%$·! one. She was very crazy and old, she had like 70 years old, was disrespectful and unfair with us,
was socialist and was like very paranoic with the guerrilla and all of that stuff.

We made something that the article writen by caulfield2 says that we woudn't normally do. We tried to solve the problems with the two teachers. We realised, when we had the second one, that the first one wasn't even that bad, jejejeje. But what I'm telling is that in the interchange programs for teachers, the colombian teachers that are going to USA, have to be great persons, and have to make a really big effort to go there, while we get send some lunatic socialist that the only thing that she wants to do is like putting us against everything and MAYBE, to putting our mind in getting enroled with a guerrilla group!!!

THIS IS UNFAIR WITH US, WE ARE BEING TREATED LIKE DOGS, AND USA AS LIKE THE ONE THAT FEEDS US, WE, ME PARTNERS AND I DEMAND RESPECT!

thanks for reading this post. It has been written by someone that has lived the problem.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 11, 2006, 09:23:

Let me begin by saying that it is absolutely unacceptable for a teacher to physically abuse students in any way. In the U.S, you are quickly fired and sued for ONE such incident. Students that do not like teachers often make up stories...the teacher is suspended while there is an investigation going on, and the teacher still has that on his or her record for 7 years, which makes it much more difficult to get a job.

As far as teachers imposing their political beliefs, this is also wrong. I deliberately take the point of view of President Bush (who I personally dislike) or that of the US in order to make students THINK. For instance, last week, we had a debate about abortion and the War in Iraq...I debated with a Colombian professor who defended the US, while I disagreed with our policy towards Iraq and the Middle East in general.

That does not mean the students feel they have no freedom to speak their true opinions with me. The US is often accused of a kind of cultural imperialism against Colombia. The US teachers, in some ways, are not the enemy, per se, but they represent the so-called domination of this region of the world by US policies. I enjoy going back and forth in debates, and, while I may agree somewhat with the original ideas of a Che Guevara (not what has happened since then, with either the paramilitaries or FARC), that does not mean that I am not objective or do not consider conflicting opinions. For instance, there are many divided opinions about the correctness of letting former guerrilas accused of many crimes against humanity turn in their guns and walk off with checks from the government and a new, decent-paying job.

Yes, there are many what I would call questionably-suited teachers for Colombia, which makes it much harder for the teachers that follow them, as you mentioned. Sometimes, the first one seems even normal in comparison, right?

My school might be a little different, in that it is also Strato 6 students whose parents pay $4,000 per year for their children to attend the school. Many of my students have already visited, lived in or studied in the US.

As far as respect, well, you cannot make someone respect you. It has to be earned, on both sides. You should respect your teacher, because of the education they have (usually) and the fact that most teachers in Colombia only make $400,000-1,200,000 per month, which is almost nothing compared to how much time they spend preparing lessons, grading homework, etc. The teachers should also respect the students...but both sides need to compromise, too. You cannot force the teacher to accept a lazy (peresozo) work ethic, apathy...they WANT to teach students with the same high expectations they would teach US students with. Does that mean a US teacher should accept an environment where students are constantly talking, not raising their hands or being disrespectful while others are speaking? I do not think so. In other words, both sides need to adapt and change to meet in the middle. 30 students cannot change the way they are, their culture, their environment. They CAN work with the teacher to build or develop a classroom that is more conducive to learning and one in which the teacher can be comfortable. They can realize that just as it is Colombia, they should be culturally aware enough to realize that, for instance, boys constantly whistling at their young female teacher is not acceptable either. That is a tremendous sign of disrespect towards women, but here, it is almost normal in some cities.

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ixent says on Feb 11, 2006, 09:40:

in my personal experience as an English teacher in Ibagué in 2000-2001, I definitely felt that the students were very well behaved, and were keen to show me a positive image of colombia. I was also aware, that some of my Colombian colleagues had a few discplinary problems with the same students. I
made considerable effort to prepare my classes well (i was completely inexperienced), and I think that they appreciated it.

So to answer the question at the beginning of this thread, I would say it is not a general rule.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 11, 2006, 09:41:

Yes, I know our school is making more of an effort to at least have someone that is trusted do an in-person interview.

Math, science and physics are even more difficult, because the teachers might have lots of content knowledge but struggle mightily to connect with the kids here and keep their attention.

There are 2-3 international recruiting fairs in the US (Iowa, Boston) and one major one in Canada where many of the SACS-accredited schools go to recruit. The problems often occur when a teacher leaves before their contract and they have to scramble to replace someone, often sight-unseen, from the US or another foreign country. In that situation, you have a little desperation on both sides. The school needs to fill the position before the class becomes unmanageable, and the teacher often takes a job in a very difficult situation without being prepared, because even a good teacher can struggle with the assilimilation, which impacts their teaching.

Colombia, because of its spotty reputation, often can draw some interesting characters that would not make it through the screening process to teach in places like Europe or Japan, IMO. In that sense, they have to accept not being the first choice of some of the best teachers. Many have Colombia (or Honduras, where they pay $6,000 per year and you cannot save anything) as their back-up or fall-back position at these fairs.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 11, 2006, 09:44:

Pay peanuts... And you get monkeys.

Wasteland

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caulfield2 says on Feb 11, 2006, 09:46:

I think a lot of it has to do with what type of school or environment you teach in...although good teaching is normally good teaching, no matter what country or econoomic status the students are.

For instance, university students that I teach tend to pay their own tuition (at least those of Strato 3-5) and they also tend to be more motivated. That is a generalization, I know. But they appreciate their classes more, they are related to their future careers or interests, and they are a joy for me to teach.

Did your school in Ibague have lots of foreign teachers? Public or private? I think many of the problems we have are related to the kids being so spoiled and used to getting their way with their parents that they often whine-complain and often get what they want in the school, as well. That is changing, but it is very difficult to change the school or institutional environment that exists, to something BETTER.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 11, 2006, 09:57:

Wasteland,

Not quite that simple. I can very easily save (if I did not constantly travel) $8,000-10,000, if I wanted to lead that kind of lifestyle. I prefer to go out more, do things every weekend (horseback riding, hang-gliding, amusement parks, movies, shopping) so I spend a lot more money than most. I also eat out about 90% of the time, although the food costs are not especially high here, even for the very best restaurants. The prices for those would be equivalent to an Applebees or Chilis.

One of the problems is that foreign teachers make more money, so that can cause resentment on the part of the Colombians, especially when the foreign teachers sleepwalk through their jobs or are downright unprofessional or unprepared each day.

Still, in general, high school and middle school teaching is NOT respected in most cultures of the world, to the extent that being the CEO or manager of a corporation...a doctor, dentist, lawyer, is.

Supply and demand...there are only so many teachers that will teach in Colombia, so the salaries are actually pretty decent. I made $34,000 teaching in Kansas City with two Masters degrees.

Let us say that is $17 per hour, and the minimum wage is $5.15.

Here in Colombia, I make something like $12 per hour (about $6.75 per hour for university classes), but the minimum wage is something like $1.00 per hour. In other words, a teachers wage in the US is something like 3X the minimum, whereas my salary as a foreign teacher in Colombia is FOUR times that. Another way to put it is that I am making the equivalent of a teacher in the US making $120,000 per year, instead of the $30s or $40s. So I am definitely capable of a much nicer lifestyle here...and, as I said, it depends how disciplined you are with your saving habits.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 11, 2006, 10:00:

It's been a long time when I taught class in Colombia, but I do identify some of the situations you're describing, caulfield.

I absolutely hated teaching high school kids in Colombia; I stood out with it exactly two terms. I taught English in a catholic all-boy school in Cali and the boys were totally disrespectfull towards me all the time. They didn't want to participate, didn't do any homework, flirted with me in a very rude way, made silly pranks (a rubber mouse at my desk, for example, glad I'm not scared of mice) and refused to learn anything. I ended up flunking 70% of them in English, had all the parents contact the director (he was making excuses for me saying that I came from another culture and was used to a more disciplined approach to studies); I finally gave up, it wasn't worth it. Basically, I thought they were having the time of their life with me, a young gringa with basically no command of Spanish and was fair game for their jokes.

My second experience is from an English institute where people were older (around my age and older) and who really wanted to learn English. I taught there for almost ten years, with a break in the middle when I was pregnant and my kids were just babies). I have nothing but fondest memories from that time; had an excellent reputation as a teacher and made a whole lot of good friends; some of them I still keep contact with.

I think Colombian kids basically think that all foreign teachers are not to be taken as seriously as Colombian teachers. They like to play games with them, test them (pretty much the same way kids here test their substitute teachers) and I think, caulfield, it's basically because they know that they don't need to build up a relationship with them. They can get away with a lot and youngsters think it's fun to tease and irritate their teachers, which makes them to gain respect and status among their peers. A foreign teacher will have to establish his/her authority right from the beginning, not by strict disciplinary measures, but gaining the respect and goodwill of the students. Knowing Spanish is essential, professional attitude and sufficient pedagogic background is required. Unfortunately, lacking language teachers with right credentials and fluent, accent-free command of the subject language schools often hire foreigners with no degree, no teaching experience, only a crash course in methodology and throw them to the wolves. Teaching is a professional occupation; not just anybody can do that.

Cheers,
Desi



Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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quindioman says on Feb 11, 2006, 11:10:

i'll get round to reading the rest of the thread.....at the moment I've just recovered from a laughing till my stomach hurts attack.....that post by djhyro was a classic....watch out modefoque!!!

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 11, 2006, 11:43:

I think it depends on the teacher Some teachers know how to establish and maintain order, some don't. If you let bad behavior slide, you'll get more of it. If you try to blow smoke up the students' posteriors, they'll pick up on that like rats to garbage and be all over you.

Sure the environment can influence what the teachers' can do and how they can do it. While a good teacher can work within those constraints (e.g. when the worst behaving kid has the richest, most prestigious parents), an average or below-average teacher may not be able to handle it.

But as wasteland said above...

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poco says on Feb 11, 2006, 11:57:

Only four hours and Djhyro has excellent insight.

I’m around Colombian High School students ALL THE TIME,, they are neither ignorant or stupid.

Teachers in Colombia who are NOT part of the Fulbright Exchange Program will have a tendency to be “less than optimal�, radicals out to “fix Colombia’s Problems�, on a boondoggle and will be, justifiably, under suspicion.

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 11, 2006, 13:18:

I think herein lies your answer, Caufield: "THIS IS UNFAIR WITH US, WE ARE BEING TREATED LIKE DOGS, AND USA AS LIKE THE ONE THAT FEEDS US, WE, ME PARTNERS AND I DEMAND RESPECT!"

In all caps. From a Colombian high school student.

Imagine how early this attitude is inculcated among the elite that make up your student body. Is it any wonder that it is difficult to teach them anything?

The teachers at George Washington in Cartagena often shared with me their frustration. They literally could not fail a student, no matter how poorly he had mastered the material. The student's attitude, effort, or lack thereof made no difference.

It was a simple business decision: fail the student, and Mom and Dad will be angry, withdraw Juancito and pay no more tuition. So you WILL give him a makeup exam, and he WILL pass... understood?

I wonder how deep your pockets would have to be to establish a secondary school in Colombia with real standards, that would be known and respected by Colombian and American Universities?

Wasteland

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Marinero223 says on Feb 11, 2006, 13:19:

glad to read this... I'm hoping to move to Medellin in the next year and am starting to look into teaching opportunities. I am a certifeid teacher, but in Special Education. I am bilingual and my better-half is Colombian so moving to Colombia would be for us to stay for the long term...
My experiences here - the U.S. - as a teacher have ranged from rough to horrible. It may be because of my working with students with behavior disorders, but even the "normal" kids were rough.
I hope that if I am able to establish a good rapport with students in a Colombian school, show them respect for their beautiful country and culture (and language!), show that I'm in it for the "long haul", be as dedicated as I am here, that I may not have as much of a hard time as described by the thread-starter.
I'm originally from Barbados but my dad if American. Do you think that not focusing on my "American-side" may be an advantage? I've lived in the U.S. for the last 13 years but identify as a Barbadian even though I have U.S. citizenship.
Any thoughts would be appreciated...
Also, any suggestions for how to bring my jump search up a notch would be great!

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 11, 2006, 13:26:

Caufield... with regards to money... I've no beef with you Sir.

I'm glad that you are happy with your salary, and all the American high school teachers in Cartagena were living quite well.

But you are right when you say that secondary school teachers aren't valued like CEO's (I'm bowled over by the power of that understatement.)

When all the talk is done, we can measure "how much" they are undervalued in salary. If there is any truth to djhyro's criticism of the foreign teachers he has had (and I find it very suspect) then there are two solutions:

More screening for higher quality. Higher pay.

BOTH cost more money, and until Colombians are willing to pay that, they won't get better quality teachers.

Neither will we in America, for that matter.

America gets by due to immigration and brain drain. Colombia... doesn't get by.

Wasteland

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caulfield2 says on Feb 11, 2006, 13:34:

I know George Washington as well, and was offered a position there but I accepted at another school an hour or so before (at the UNI Overseas Teaching Fair). You are right, according to the rules of the government, you can only fail 5% of the students in a school, and they all have to be given the opportunity to recuperate...which means 25% of them know they can just take it easy, then sneak by in the end. When schools that charge thousands of dollars in tuition start expelling students or not accepting them on a regular basis...well, I will believe it when I see it.

As far as the whole respect thing, well, you cannot simply demand it. Kids always want to be treated with respect, as adults...but, of course they do not like it when they act like 5th graders and have to be punished or disciplined. If you act like an adult, then you can be treated as one by the teacher. Unfortunately, most students are incapable of policing their own actions...maybe 25%.

Jorge Washington is actually a better school academically (as are the SACs schools in Barranquilla, Manizales, Cali, Medellin, Bogota), but they all probably tend to struggle with some of the same issues.

As far as Pocos comments, I wonder if he has ever been a teacher in a Colombian high school, working with only Strato 6 students. I highly doubt it. Yeah, I was a volunteer program director and worked with HS students all the time outside of school...but knowing or meeting them outside of the teaching environment is a totally different interaction. I am always amused by those who think it is so easy and anyone can do it.

Note, I never said they were unintelligent, far from it. They are very good manipulators, some of them can and will be excellent lawyers if they apply themselves.

The point of this thread was to look at reasons why the relationships can or are different for foreign teachers in COL.

According to Poco, everyone who does not go to business school at Harvard, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern or Penn is not fit to be a CEO. That is as patently ridiculous as saying the only good teachers from the US are Fulbright Scholars. Maybe Poco would only accept Rhodes scholars in his place of business, lol?

I went to one of the best English programs in the country, the University of Iowa. I have two Masters Degrees, one in Sports Administration and another in Curriculum & Instruction from the Univ. of Missouri at Kansas City. Does that mean I am a good teacher, because I am certified by the state of Missouri in English and History? Absolutely not. (By the way, I would include apostrophes where appropriate, but I cannot figure out how to type them on this particular keyboard).

At any rate, I consider myself somewhere in the second quartile of teachers. I am a very good teacher, but I am not great at classroom management. I know where my strengths and weaknesses lie...and I know I would be an excellent university teacher, it is simply a matter of the difference in salaries, which is pretty big. I would probably give up 30-40% of what I would be making at the high school.

I think it is idiotic threads like the one about Liceo Campestre or Ingles or whatever in Pereira that give up foreign teachers here in Colombia a bad name, unfortunately.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 11, 2006, 13:47:

Marinero,

It is really not that rough. Teaching in an inner city high school in Kansas City for three years where you have 5 fights per day, metal detectors and 35% of the kids are walking the halls at any given time, well, that is rough, lol. On a scale of one to ten, I like teaching here around 7 or 8, but in the US, it was closer to 2 or maybe 3. Big difference.

The purpose of the thread was just giving possible explanations for why relationships might be considered worse or different between foreign teachers and Colombian students, versus Colombian teachers and Colombian students. I have not experienced these things, per se, just observed them or heard them from former teachers.

My only thought here is that the US and Colombia treats their disabled students somewhat different, especially physically handicapped students. There are millions of state and Federal dollars available to create special supports, plans, individual attention outside of the mainstreaming theory prevalent for American special ed students.

In fact, between math-science and Special Ed, those are the two hottest areas, and very well paid, in the United States, both now and in the forseeable future. In Colombia, that equity just does not exist...teachers who work with those kids are often the poorest paid or even volunteers in many situations.

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poco says on Feb 11, 2006, 19:55:

Reading deficit ?? According to Poco, everyone who does not go to business school at Harvard, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern or Penn is not fit to be a CEO.

You have the wrong person,, not my statement,, or even close.

That is as patently ridiculous as saying the only good teachers from the US are Fulbright Scholars. Maybe Poco would only accept Rhodes scholars in his place of business, lol?

Again,, not something I said,, the term used was “less than optimal�,

You have displayed your qualifications (resume?) on at least two posts,, with the assumption this will somehow increase the believability of your observations. Unfortunately there are growing numbers of Academic Institutions of higher Learning? staffed with teachers suffering from delusions.

Combine this with the abysmally low scores of U.S. students as compared to the rest of the world makes the U.S. and educational system “professionals� become suspect.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 11, 2006, 20:10:

One difference for gringos might be understanding what constitutes respect to a Colombian. Other threads have cited instances where being "nice and considerate" by American standards is perceived as being a foolish sucker by Colombian standards. If you think you're coming off as nice and considerate from the first day, you could really be planting the seeds for your own demise.

I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but in the management training I've had, the advice was to start out firm and loosen up later as the situation permitted (understanding it may not permit it) If you start off "soft" it is VERY difficult to become firm later on as you'll have lost all respect.

Also, "firm" means organized, disciplined, and not tolerant of deviations. If you can't fail someone, then you can't apply "grade" pressure to motivate. So you'll have to come up with a different motivator. Firm does not mean tyrranical. That approach is probably not going to work for a gringo.

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soccerstud says on Feb 12, 2006, 05:13:

there's a solution i was once a student in colombia when i was younger and there is actually, a pretty simple solution to the teacher versus student thing. in every classroom there is someone who the rest of the students respect or kinda look up to, the teacher just has to befriend that student and the student will later stick up for that teacher if someone else is giving them problems. no one in the class will mess with that teacher again.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 12, 2006, 09:20:

Wow... there's some good advise Suck up to the cool guy. Grovel before Jack, and his little Lord of the Flies tribesman will be nice to you.

I can't believe I'm reading this nonsense!

Caulfield - as an ex-Naval Officer, I've heard the old, "You earn respect, you don't demand it" saw about a thousand times.

While I understand that it's designed to temper undeserved arrogance, I don't find it very instructive.

That's because one way you earn respect is BY demanding it.
Another way is by showing professional excellence.
Another way still is by being just - not nice, not cool, not mean - but JUST.
And lastly, though I can't imagine much application for this in the classroom, knowing when to abandon "just," and simply look after your people with compassion.

But frankly, I would have difficulty accepting your position. You gave some statistics on how many students could be failed, and I don't believe them: have you ever had to fail ONE? What came of it?

Nothing is more disastrous than having a responsibility without the commensurate authority to execute it. And that's what I saw at the American school in CTG. The result was serial failure, but since nobody was really measuring anyways, it didn't matter.

It wouldn't work in my world.

Wasteland

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