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Anglicised names

In Nuevo Rico, Nuevo Pobre (a semi-popular telenovela), three of the lower class characters are called "Brayan", "Rosmeri" and "Miler". The upper class characters tend to be called things like "Andres", "Antonia" and "Mateo".

I have noticed sales girls with their names stuck to their shirts called things like "Leidy", and "Jhon" and "Yeimy" seem fairly common. I have heard a rumour, in fact, that some girls are called "Usneivy". I have not, however, met many upper class Colombians (children or adults) with phonetically spelt English names. In fact I don't think I've met any.

So, the conclusion so far goes that...

"Lower-middle class Colombians are more likely to be called, and name their children, anglicised names".

Why?

Okay - we all know that the lower classes tend to have different names to the higher classes, this is hardly unique to Colombia (in Britain "Darren" is considered a lower-middle class name, while "Charles" would be typically more blue-blooded). But why these English names? Does the logic somehow go that if you give your child the sort of name an American might have, then they will grow up to be rich (like all Americans purpotedly are)? Is it that an anglicised name will bring more "status" than a hispanic name? (because if so, this strategy has clearly backfired).

And, more to the point, how long has this fashion lasted - and will it stay forever?

By Leeroy on Nov 5, 2007, 12:58 in Friendly Talkzone.

Simon says on Nov 5, 2007, 13:17:

It's just a sign of the inferiority complex that some Colombians suffer, unfortunately.

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 5, 2007, 13:26:

One of my cousins sat me down once and explained to me that I should be careful with any woman with a name like Deisy, Leidy, Dayana, etc. because it probably meant they were from a lower class. I thought that this was horribly elitist, but I have gotten used to it with many of my relatives in Colombia. Since my wife's family is not from an upper estrato, I obviously don't care much about social class, but the epidemic of mangled English names bugs the hell out of me.

Also, I have noticed a steady decline in the quality of typical Colombian Spanish. Colombian Spanish has always been considered a very correct and "beautiful" dialect. Unfortunately, you see pochismos(use of English words instead of the correct Spanish). being used more and more by the average Colombian. If I can grow up in the US and still use correct Spanish, I consider it pathetic when educated Colombians are too lazy to use the correct Spanish words.

Yo me como los mocos debajo de la ruana pa que no me pidan.

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Alma del Norte (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 5, 2007, 18:18:

I know a four years old Guambiano called Bryan Smith. I kid you not!

La vida es una rutina

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Man Tequila says on Nov 5, 2007, 18:35:

The Book "Freakanomics" concluded the following after studying baby names in California.

http://www.slate.com/id/2116505/

"The California names data tell a lot of stories in addition to the one about the segregation of white and black first names. Broadly speaking, the data tell us how parents see themselves—and, more significantly, what kinds of expectations they have for their children.

The actual source of a name is usually obvious: There's the Bible, there's the huge cluster of traditional English and Germanic and Italian and French names, there are princess names and hippie names, nostalgic names and place names. Increasingly, there are brand names (Lexus, Armani, Bacardi, Timberland) and what might be called aspirational names. The California data show eight Harvards born during the 1990s (all of them black), 15 Yales (all white), and 18 Princetons (all black). There were no Doctors but three Lawyers (all black), nine Judges (eight of them white), three Senators (all white), and two Presidents (both black).

But how does a name migrate through the population, and why? Is it purely a matter of zeitgeist, or is there a more discernible pattern to these movements?

(Formatting slightly FUBAR, original link clearer)

Most Popular Overall White Girl Names

1980
2000

1. Jennifer
1. Emily

2. Sarah
2. Hannah

3. Melissa
3. Madison

4. Jessica
4. Sarah

5. Christina
5. Samantha

6. Amanda
6. Lauren

7. Nicole
7. Ashley

8. Michelle
8. Emma

9. Heather
9. Taylor

10. Amber
10. Megan

Most Popular Overall
Most Popular High-End
Most Popular Low-End

1980
2000
1990s
1990s

1. Jennifer
1. Emily
1. Alexandra
1. Amber

2. Sarah
2. Hannah
2. Lauren
2. Heather

3. Melissa
3. Madison
3. Katherine
3. Kayla

4. Jessica
4. Sarah
4. Madison
4. Stephanie

5. Christina
5. Samantha
5. Rachel
5. Alyssa

6. Amanda
6. Lauren

7. Nicole
7. Ashley

8. Michelle
8. Emma

9. Heather
9. Taylor

10. Amber
10. Megan

There is a clear pattern at play: Once a name catches on among high-income, highly educated parents, it starts working its way down the socioeconomic ladder. Amber, Heather, and Stephanie started out as high-end names. For every high-end baby given those names, however, another five lower-income girls received those names within 10 years.

Many people assume that naming trends are driven by celebrities. But how many Madonnas do you know? Or, considering all the Brittanys, Britneys, Brittanis, Brittanies, Brittneys, and Brittnis you encounter these days, you might think of Britney Spears; but she is in fact a symptom, not a cause, of the Brittany/Britney/Brittani/Brittanie/Brittney/Brittni explosion—and hers is a name that began on the high end and has since fallen to the low. Most families don't shop for baby names in Hollywood. They look to the family just a few blocks over, the one with the bigger house and newer car. The kind of families that were the first to call their daughters Amber or Heather, and are now calling them Alexandra or Katherine. The kind of families that used to name their sons Justin or Brandon and are now calling them Alexander or Benjamin. Parents are reluctant to poach a name from someone too near—family members or close friends—but many parents, whether they realize it or not, like the sound of names that sound "successful."

Once a high-end name is adopted en masse, however, high-end parents begin to abandon it. Eventually, it will be considered so common that even lower-end parents may not want it, whereby it falls out of the rotation entirely. The lower-end parents, meanwhile, go looking for the next name that the upper-end parents have broken in.

So, the implication is clear: The parents of all those Alexandras and Katherines, Madisons and Rachels should not expect the cachet to last much longer. Those names are just now peaking and are already on their way to overexposure. Where, then, will the new high-end names come from? Considering the traditionally strong correlation between income and education, it probably makes sense to look at the most popular current names among parents with the most years of education. Here, drawn from a pair of databases that provide the years of parental education, is a sampling of such names. Some of them, as unlikely as it seems, may well become tomorrow's mainstream names. Before you scoff, ask yourself this: Do Aviva or Clementine seem any more ridiculous than Madison might have seemed 10 years ago?

Obviously, a variety of motives are at work when parents consider a name for their child. It would be an overstatement to suggest that all parents are looking—whether consciously or not—for a smart name or a high-end name. But they are all trying to signal something with a name, and an overwhelming number of parents are seemingly trying to signal their own expectations of how successful they hope their children will be. The name itself isn't likely to make a shred of difference. But the parents may feel better knowing that, from the very outset, they tried their best.

------------------

If this is true, lower classes in Colombia may be looking across the seas for status, and not to their boss who comes in sin saludar..

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Leeroy says on Nov 5, 2007, 19:24:

An interesting post - I have read Freakonomics, I found it to be an interesting book.

What is really interesting is why low-income parents would look overseas ("Brayan") instead of closer to home ("Andres").

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Man Tequila says on Nov 5, 2007, 19:28:

More perceived status? Confounding morals and money?

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Lauthra (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 5, 2007, 20:15:

My algebra teacher in secondary school was called James, but it was pronounced Hames, in spanish basically.
My boyfriend met a girl recently whose middle name is Marleidy, maybe from My Lady?
If I remember correctly there was quite a long thread about this a years ago...? My memory isn't what it used to be!

Nato (='.'=)

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coffee beaner says on Nov 5, 2007, 20:25:

I've heard a lot of girls named Jaime in the U.S., but here in Colombia Jaime is a mans name... more "Americano" wannabes? hmmmm

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john_stark says on Nov 5, 2007, 20:27:

Thank God my three Colombian step children are named Juan, Andres and Sara.

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 5, 2007, 20:37:

I have two cousins, one 19 years old and the other is 21. Both are named Leidy. One is Leidy Diana.

My question is, where does the name Garnufia fall as far as "high class" or "low class"?

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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fugdis says on Nov 5, 2007, 20:46:

I have a friend called Lesvy ana lopez.
The name Kevin is becoming quite popular in Cali.

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jaramillo says on Nov 6, 2007, 05:30:

Garnufia! WTF is that!

I'm not sure I agree with Simon on the inferiority complex. Some Colombians always had such a complex but they did not call their children Leidy or Bryan. It is a relatively new trend and I attribute it more to ignorance, and to a misplaced sense of personal freedom. I refer, basically, to the prevailing attitude that I can do "lo que me de la puta gana". I can call my kid Kevin, I can tattoo a dick in my forehead, or I can say I am a a worshipper of Satan. Everything goes, and if you disapprove well then you're a bigot!

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 05:40:

I bet people have been "naming up" (or down as it usually turns out) for centuries. There are old comedy routines in the US that instead of referring to a black man by his first name, use Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln or Roosevelt, which once upon a time were quite common. For our non-US readers, that can be a tough joke to pull off because you can't make fun of the use of Washington, Jefferson or Lincoln as a LAST name or you'd be criticizing former slaves who didn't know what their real names were and had to choose something once they had their freedom. Not funny. The newer routines poke fun at the made-up names and crazy spellings of names for young black women and their babies. And Hillbilly names are always good for a laugh as are the selections of drugged-out Californians, e.g. Moon Unit Zappa.

I hear a lot of "Wilsons" in Colombia, which makes me think of a proper English servant or the volleyball in the Tom Hanks movie "Cast Away."

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:11:

Yes, a mangled_English first name is like a tattoo on the forehead saying that you're "chusma". It's different with all the Johanas, Jhons etc. which are just slightly misspelled "real" names. Also all correctly spelled English/any other language names are actually pretty common in the middle classes: Arnold, Wilson, Edison, John, James, Giovanna, Paola. This is strictly middle-class, due to the fact that middle-class parents have seen a lot of Hollywood movies (going to movies is one of those things you can do on a limited budget) and watched a lot of TV with a lot of gringo sitcoms/soaps/series because that's the other thing they can afford (not enough money to socialize at the clubs with the upper class and too proud to mingle with the "pueblo" ) so you stay home and watch TV.

The upper crust sticks to traditional names (Biblical, often combined without hyphen).

Fashionable names (Laura, Valentina, Valeria, Santos, Lucas, Kevin etc.) can be found in any of the barrios.

Cheers,
Desi

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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gringolondinense says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:22:

Ive noticed that posh names are on the rise again
Humphrey
Rupert
Winston

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:31:

I made it a point to give my kids names that are spelled the same way in Spanish and English. They are both names that would be considered "native" to both languages and cultures.

That was the first and most important rule when it came to picking a name. Next, my ex-wife would make a list of names that she liked and I would try to come up with the most horrible nicknames I could think of. School kids could do much worse, but at least I avoided the names with the worst potential for scarring them for life ;-)

Yo me como los mocos debajo de la ruana pa que no me pidan.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:43:

Yes, we thought pretty much alike when naming our children. They had to look and sound good with a tradtional Spanish last name yet be international enough to be recognized as proper names anywhere in the world, or almost anywhere. There's a whole wealth of "classical" names that translate easily from Spanish to English to Finnish to Swedish to whatever. Kids need to have names they can live with and yet names that don't sound too infantile for a grown-up. I think many boys' names in English sound like nicknames or shortened from something else.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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MaSep says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:45:

Not just with the names you can difference someone from upper to low class, there are expressions like ( papi rico)))) my fiance told me a woman on the airport told him that I got in shock that is so low class and ho talking!!! uuu

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:51:

You can make a fairly accurate guess of a person's origin, geographical, socioeconomic status, city/country, male/female, age, educational level etc. by just listening this person speak on the telephone, if you've a trained ear. I'm not that good but I can make an educated guess of a Caleño/a's socioeconomic class by knowing the first name and listening a few minutes of him/her talking.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 6, 2007, 07:59:

Garnufia was one of the smurfs, no?

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curramberochris says on Nov 6, 2007, 09:28:

A guy who plays for the Pro baseball team in Barranquilla is called Maxdonald! Couldn´t stop laughing!!

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SiV says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:00:

See Samper Pizarro's article on PBH, if you read spanish:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/los-nombres-extranjeros-otro-eje...

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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Simon says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:09:

One thing I've never understood is why do gringo's pronounce 'Jose' like 'Hose A'?

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:16:

Why can't Spanish speakers pronounce LUNCH? Keeps the world interesting...

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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Simon says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:19:

I can pronounce 'Lunch' perfectly.

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:19:

But you're half-Gringo.

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:20:

Simon, would you prefer that they say "Joe-say"?

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Simon says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:21:

Nope!

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:22:

Simon, you're half gringo?

Yo me como los mocos debajo de la ruana pa que no me pidan.

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capitan_centella says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:23:

Yeap. I have a friend who´s name are: ONEDOYAR CAMARGO.

And in little towns in boyacá (some of the countryside near to bogotá), old people are named after goods and goddes from greek mythology. (Or sound greek.) like: FRUCTUOSO, DIONISIO, VENUS, HORACIO. . . (Fructuoso is one of the oldest fellas in my hometown. Nice guy). Right now, its not so common.

I usually hear: JASBLEIDY, YELLEY ADIPSA, MILADI, MILADY. . . that kind of names comes from poor people trying to be more "american". And conbinations are funny too. . . for example, YULY JASBLEIDY. . .

you get the picture.

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.

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Simon says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:23:

Yo no, aunque mi avatar sí lo es, jeje.

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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Lauthra (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:26:

I can pronounce lunch too! :P

Garnufia? Errr... Emmm, well I've never met anyone called that, but I know it is one of the piss take names you will call someone. I don't think its low class per se, just old and very uncommon, not to mention bloody hideous!

Nato (='.'=)

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:27:

Ah que bien. Iba a decir que seria mucha ironía que resultaras mitad gringo con lo hiper-patriótico que eres. Ja Ja.

Yo me como los mocos debajo de la ruana pa que no me pidan.

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kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:43:

When I was growing up, not to have given your kid a saint's name (or at least a name of considerable secular antiquity) was considered impertinent and trashy.

My mother had considerable scorn for tykes with such handles as 'Clint', 'Wayne' or 'Dean'.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 11:31:

SiV, been a while since you were around last. Good to see you back at PBH

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 6, 2007, 11:55:

I was just looking at the list of popular names posted by MT and was reminded of an article I read a while back. Apparently, there were no records of girls with the first name "Madison" until the movie "Splash" came out in the 80s. In the movie, the mermaid character chooses the name from a street sign for Madison Ave. I find it funny and a little pathetic that it has now become such a popular name.

Yo me como los mocos debajo de la ruana pa que no me pidan.

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kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 12:03:

'Jack' is the most popular UK boys' name.

Name, my arse. It's a diminutive.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 12:05:

Mohammed is No. 40 or something. Give it ten years and it'll be giving 'Jack' a run for its money.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Man Tequila says on Nov 6, 2007, 12:05:

Coulda been worse. Instead of Madison, it could have been Bleeker or Bowery or Stuyvesant.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 6, 2007, 12:06:

A shameless plug for my friend's website (but it's kind of on-topic; there are tables that list popular names by language or country).

http://www.yeahbaby.com/popular-baby-names/

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 12:15:

Tinto- I liked reading the list of popular boys' names from 100 years ago.

Interesting to note that some were just single initials- R, W , H etc.

"A piece of cheese may entrap a mouse, but a bicycle could ensnare the Imperial Chancellor."~~An Bai Kuang

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Leeroy says on Nov 6, 2007, 15:20:

"One thing I've never understood is why do gringo's pronounce 'Jose' like 'Hose A'?"

Okay Simon - do you really want to know?

It's because in English we do not end words with short monopthong vowels (huh? like "e", "a", "i", "o", "u" in Spanish). The only monopthong vowel we can finish a word with is the "schwa" sound, like the "er" when a British person says "computer", or the second "a" in "Data". This aside, all words that finish with vowels must finish with dipthongs (where the vowel changes from one sound to another) - like "ei", "ai", "oh", etc... or long vowels, like the "ee" in "Bee" or "ooo" in "Blue".

"Jose" finishes with the "e" monopthong, which is fine and dandy in Spanish, but not done in English. So the "e" becomes (phonetically) an "ei" - hence "hoe-zei".

When listening to gringos speak Spanish it is fairly easy to notice this:

-a becomes -uh (tienda=tienduh)
-e becomes -ei (digame=digamei)
-o becomes -oh (pasto=pastoh)
-ia becomes -iuh (maria=mariuh)
-io becomes -ioh (fabio=fabioh)

-u and -i do not suffer so much, as they have long vowel equivalents in English (blUE and bEE)

I could go on, but for the sake of all involved, I won't..,

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 6, 2007, 15:41:

Another thing that most people don't realize is that unlike Spanish, most vowel sounds in English are not single phonetic sounds. Since there are so many various sounds for a given vowel, it confuses people trying to speak both languages.

For example, in spanish, the "a" sound is a single phonetic sound. It sounds like "La"

In english, the long "a" vowel sound is actually two phonetic sounds blended together. It sounds like combining the Spanish "e" and "i" sounds.

I am by no means a linguist or speech expert, but I have seen dramatic improvements in the pronunciation of English by native Spanish speakers when I have explained how English vowel sounds are broken down into their phonetic elements.

Yo me como los mocos debajo de la ruana pa que no me pidan.

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Simon says on Nov 6, 2007, 17:59:

Leeroy,

Thanks for that comprehensive explanation, but my qualm is with why do they pronounce the 's' like a 'z'?

I don't see a 'z' in Jose, do you?

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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Leeroy says on Nov 6, 2007, 18:21:

Because an "s" is pronounced like "z" (it is vocalised) when it is the last sound in the word and it comes after the "oh" vowel sound:

Hose
Mows
Knows/Nose
Toes
Shows
Rows/Rose
Prose

(This doesn't work when you're whispering, though.)

Native Spanish speakers (who are less than fluent in English) are rarely able to reproduce this accurately when speaking English - and native English speakers find it hard to kick the habit when speaking Spanish!

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Simon says on Nov 6, 2007, 18:23:

Very interesting, thanks for explaining that!

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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Mononoke28 says on Nov 7, 2007, 10:52:

Lower class Colombias (and Venezuelans for that matter) try to be stylish and elegant with their names, thus the stupid Enlglish/American names they come up with. Which in reality makes them more of a joke than anything else.

How about this for a messed up name "MARLON BRANDO RODRIGUEZ". It doesn't get better than that. And yes, that's a real name.

Diana

Diana

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Grateful Dead says on Nov 7, 2007, 11:23:

lol

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Grateful Dead says on Nov 7, 2007, 11:45:

lol

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