Americano Killed at ATM holdup in Cali

Peter Miami says on Jun 6, 2005, 18:32:

Must always check your surrounding when you go to the bank or ATM in any country!

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jags44 says on Jun 6, 2005, 19:28:

Killed Why didn't they just rob him. I don't get it.

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miamimike says on Jun 6, 2005, 19:54:

As I and a few others have posted many times, you cannot be too careful around these ATMs(colombia or the USA)-you REALLY have to be aware of who is in the immediate area and this Murder bears it out precisely.Wow, what Barbarism.

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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caslug says on Jun 6, 2005, 20:08:

Where's that ATM located and what time? "el barrio El Ingenio del sur de la ciudad", is this a bad area? Or is it like in area like Chipichape mall. Anyone know what time that happen? It didn't seem like article said anything about time, or maybe may spanish is bad.

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platano says on Jun 6, 2005, 20:52:

caslug, El Ingenio is not a bad area. It is not that far from Unicentro and Holguines Trade Center in the south of Cali. I have friends who live there and I have visited them. It is an OK area.

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2005, 21:15:

El Ingenio is a pretty upscale neighborhood, strata 5. Yes, you'd have to be careful when using ATMs; imagine this man had been living in Cali for 25 years and certainly knew the ropes.
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 6, 2005, 21:20:

Desi.....what are you doing "up"? School's out and you are up at this hour?

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2005, 21:41:

not here school's out on the 9th. My vacations begin on the 24th. Since I'm NOT going to Colombia this summer I'll just hide in the bush amidst the Finnish countryside for 5 weeks, no computer.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 6, 2005, 22:10:

Well Desi ...so why are you awake at this hour? Unless you came back to Chicago??? It's a little late (or early) in Sweeden...can't sleep? Or are you thinking about how you are going to convice the "powers that be" to give you your sabatical next time around?

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Albatross says on Jun 7, 2005, 04:13:

Perspective On average, 40-50 Americans are murdered every single day in America.

Tiene cuidado aqui...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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kernow62 says on Jun 7, 2005, 04:34:

Is that all, I would have thought it would have been much higher. I feel safer now.

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kernow62 says on Jun 7, 2005, 04:40:

How does that compare to the suicide rate? I have always heard that the US has a higher suicide rate than murder rate.

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jags44 says on Jun 7, 2005, 05:07:

Bank Is it better to go into a bank?

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 7, 2005, 05:30:

My 2 cents......let's not be silly here--- According to Nationmaster. Colombia still has the highest murder rate. In comparison to the US.....You are much safer here than in Colombia.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

Colombia is ranked at .63 per 1000 or #1

The US is .04 per 1000 or #24.

So if you guys are worried about your safety.......you guys never better go to Colombia.

If I also may add, because Law enforcement is more organized and reliable, and reporting is better in the United states than it is in Colombia, I think the murder rate is actually hire due to under reporting in Colombia

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Gadianton says on Jun 7, 2005, 07:54:

Gomezman5 You're quite correct. Colombia consistently has more murders than the US, despite having a small fraction of the population.

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Albatross says on Jun 7, 2005, 08:21:

True... All true, but my point was that someone who lives in just about any American city has a greater chance of being murdered here than when on vacation in Colombia.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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litost says on Jun 7, 2005, 09:15:

As usual when talking about these murder statistics in Colombia... bear in mind that they include those who are killed in the armed conflict which goes on everyday in certain regions and some neighborhoods in the big cities. Not to mention the countless violent deaths which are associated to the drug trade. I think that if you take this into account, as long as you stay out of known conflict areas and don't get involved in drug trafficking, your chances of a violent death in Colombia are pretty much the same as in other latinamerican countries, and not that much higher than in US cities.

But God please, do be careful with ATMs... poor man (don't understand though why he would put up resistance to the robbery).

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Gadianton says on Jun 7, 2005, 09:31:

Aren't Most Deaths In Colombia Due To Delinquency? I thought the biggest percentage of deaths in Colombia are as a result of street-level drug dealers and the like, rather than Terrorism/organized crime?

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Neonovo says on Jun 7, 2005, 10:14:

Let's neither by silly, nor delude ourselves... Mr Alberico, while long-time resident of Colombia, and maybe street-wise in many ways, would have been helpless, as most of us would be, against these well reharsed sicarios who targeted him in a manner seldon seen in the US against induviduals, My guess is the attack was carried out probably in cordination with others (the cabbie?).

Michael Steven Alberico Allinswerth was the main victim; but some how I also see the sicarios as victims of an environment where you read about, and live with the dastardly act of murder as a practice put to use at so many levels of society, that suddenly it is no longer so despicable. Is it possilbe that a mind-set can live in some folk who may be thinking "Hey, if "they" can do it (for their own nefarious purspose) AND get away with it, maybe I can too".

Paz
Neonovo

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poco says on Jun 7, 2005, 10:43:

Not a happy camper Sweden is half the size of Colombia.. Except for Climate (1/4 of the land area is inside the Artic circle), Sweden outranks almost every nation in the world for quality of life, opportunity, education, disposable income basically amounting to civilization in general. Yet, Sweden’s suicide rate was Second in the world a few years ago.

This has puzzled me for some time.

The cold climate, excellent police force, progressive laws, almost perfect literacy rate leads me to believe the difficulty in trudging to the ATM and armed with the sure knowledge they will be apprehended for larceny has lead many to accept this final solution.

Anyway, the man was murdered in a relative upscale neighborhood The area is more or less adjacent to one of the most beautiful college campus areas across town from ChipiChape. I’ve only driven by in a Taxi once but I remember the HUGE Campus area as attractively fenced and inside were many low building set in a lush, tree filled, green park like area and impressed me as one of the nicer settings I’ve seen from the street.

Therein lays the problem, major streets and highways allowing quick and easy access to all, including those with larceny in their hearts, armed with the knowledge that wealth in that area can be obtained, their presence will likely not be noticed and they can quickly disappear into the surrounding area. A sure fire recipe for problems, not only in Colombia, but the entire world. I imagine there are a LOT less, if any security guards standing around with shotguns as compared to Chipichape.

When someone “new” shows up where I stay they are noticed immediately and stick out like a watermelon in a basket of grapes. NO ONE stays overnight unless they are in a Hotel or with relatives. Not saying this makes for perfect safety,, just better.

I researched the man, even found his eMail address. He was a tenured professor, not a “star” it seems, but happily occupied with teaching and research. He had at least one major paper to his name and many acknowledgements about small mammals. Not bothering anyone and an asset to mankind. May take a while but I’d be interested to see if this makes ANY newspapers of becomes just another small story not worthy of dissertation. Kind of pisses me off.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 7, 2005, 10:47:

Here we go again Look, the stats speak for themselves. If various people here want to start splitting hairs to downplay the murder rate to do so, they may. But the fact of the matter is that we don't know who is and who is not icluded in those muder rates. Someone just said the stats are lower because it includes people in the drug trade as well as those involved in armed conflict. Well my answer to that is....how the hell do you know? That's a bunch of nonsense. Because first the stats don't say so and second, if that was the case, it would also include US soldiers involved in the Iraq conflict, and it does not say that either. War is war and it should not be confuse with the incidence of criminal activity. And, I don't think any reliable study would confuse war casualties with criminal activity. The Murder rate is determined by how many homicides are committed. A homicide is in a nutshell, an unlswfull killing of another. I am fairly sure that armed military conflict is a part from civil killings.

It's silly to start looking for excuses to mitgate the murder rate which according to the web site above, is the highest in the world. If anything, as I already stated, Colombia is so filled with killings for various reasons, and the apprehension rate is so low, that for fear of retaliation, especially outside of the cites, lots of these killings go unreported and therefore, the official rate is superficially low in comparison to the actual murder rate. Anybody who has lived in departments where the FARC is running the country (about 40%) knows that these band of crooks are always killing people arbitrarily. Do you think those killed under these ciucumstances are accurately reported and accounted for...??? Yea sure.

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Gomezman5 says on Jun 7, 2005, 10:53:

You can be sure the rate is accurate in the US When someone is murdered in the US,,,even a gangland style murder where there is a big fear of retaliation, an official police report is always made. An inquiry and investigation goes to the homicide unit, a notification goes to the local prosecutorial authority who may or may not convene a grand jury and ask for a "bill of indicment". Invariably a death cerificate is issued that states the cause of death. If the person has any kind assets, an estate is opened for the distribution of those assets or to pay off any debts owed. This is just a 1 minute explanation of what happens when someone is killed

Additonally, all crimes are reported to the US Justice Department who then has an entire bureau that does nothing but keep stats, state by state, county by county, and muncipality be municipality...In the end, a UCR or Uniform crime report is issued..

In summary, the US stats are as reliable as it comes

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 7, 2005, 10:57:

a couple of things, poco The shopping mall is not the archifamous "Chippy Chappy" where gringos drool at scantily dressed teenagers, but Unicentro in the south of the city. The university campus is that of La universidad del Valle. Surrounded by lush greenery and sugarcane it's a lovely sight.

It is just so extremely unfair that a good gringo like Mr.Alberico, an elderly scholar and resident in Colombia for 25 years should have met this fate. It is really very sad and disturbing.

I don't understand your reference to Sweden in this context. Maybe it's just me not being able to decipher the meaning of it.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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caslug says on Jun 7, 2005, 11:35:

any news on this? Has the murderers been caught? BTW, what time did the crime occur? Was during busy daylight hours, or late at night?

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 7, 2005, 11:47:

It happened at 1:30 p.m. There's plenty of messages and comments to the news published at El Pais yesterday. Some are from his students at the university. He was greatly appreciated by them.
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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caslug says on Jun 7, 2005, 12:00:

I wonder if the US will involve.. it did for the girl on Aruba, and with the whole scrutinity they caught 2 suspects within a week. Hopefully the police will catch these guys and if need assistances ask US for help. Which is what the police in Aruba did.

That was a pretty brazen attack on the guy, to do it during the day. Did the paper say if there were witness? What about the ATM camara?

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 7, 2005, 12:22:

nothing more, caslug that's all there was about it in El pais online yesterday. Probably the paper edition contains more information but I don't have it.
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jun 7, 2005, 12:28:

the comments from people in other countries (at the bottom of the article) are interesting...and sad

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adrimm says on Jun 7, 2005, 12:32:

Colombiano killed at ATM holdup in Cali Hmmm just thought I'd type that to see how it looked (doubt I'll ever see it published, it's probably too common for that).



Regardless, it is extremely terrible that someone so well-regarded by his community (and students) should die so senslessly. Good teachers are extraordinarily hard to come by.

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caslug says on Jun 7, 2005, 12:40:

adrimm, on this board people.. will be interested in reading an article like that. But, then again, people on this board WANT to know more about COL. Personally i think newspaper should report that(if they're not), there's nothing like bad publicity to get the powers-that-be to change things.

Take the US missing girl in aruba, she was missing ONE day, her parents got the US news and authority involved. US news organization have running that story for the past week, which i'm sure played a part in aruba putting massive resource into solving the case. So, yeah, bad publicity definitely works.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 7, 2005, 12:47:

the nationality "Asesinan a un hombre por robarlo" was the headline in the news. The name and nationality was published in the short news article that accompanied the headline. There was a picture too.
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Albatross says on Jun 7, 2005, 13:09:

Jackson County Alabama; December 24, 2001 James Brownfield, age 27, beat to death with a hammer his sister Brenda McCutcheon, and her 3-year-old son. He scrawled in lipstick on a wall, “Tammy I love you. Never forget. Killing is my business now.”

Then he went to the home of Brenda’s estranged husband Latham and beat him to death with the hammer, also.

There was evidence that Brownfield was high on several drugs, including Xanax, at the time of the killings.

American Judicature Society: http://www.ajs.org/jc/jc_death_cases.asp

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Albatross says on Jun 7, 2005, 13:16:

The Devil's Advocate The statistical argument that America is "safer" than Colombia is incomplete and misses the point...

For Example:
The U.S. death rate in 2004 was 8.34 per 1000, while Colombian death rate was only 5.59 per 1000.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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poco says on Jun 7, 2005, 13:33:

Sweden K62 said; How does that compare to the suicide rate? I have always heard that the US has a higher suicide rate than murder rate.

Read the above post cut, you were posting, Sweden talked about, I'm a well spring of superfluous BS and I wrote it.

Since I’m writing this,, I believe the ACTUAL murder rate as WE UNDERSTAND the term in the U.S. MAY be EQUAL to Colombia if you eliminate the DRUG turf acquisitions, distribution and control. BUT keep the U.S. number for the same offenses,, helps "normalize" the statistics. :)

We incarcerate folks in the U.S. for crimes PUNISHABLE by Non-Official Assassination in Colombia add in the Marital, girlfriends, crimes of passion (passion must last long enough to hire someone), child molestation, bad “legal” business dealings, gambling debts, and the common variety PAIN IN THE ASS if they create enough pain, etc.

Want to live in a country where folks can make “Some people just need kill’n” come true? You all are Welcome.

PS: Desi,, you're making me go read my own posts:

Quote: "the most beautiful college campus areas across town from ChipiChape oooops,, left out the sugar cane fields,,
girls? at the mall?? I'm heading over to Galleria in Houston RIGHT NOW,, need to get a feel of this experience. This is going to cost me,, I was on my way to WalMart.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Peter Miami says on Jun 7, 2005, 13:35:

Albatross You need to get you thoughts together no one is saying that the U.S. is safe but it definitely is a lot safer than most places including Colombia and I love Colombia. But man what are you doing you are pulling an article from DECEMBER 24, 2001. Hey I am sure you could find a murder in the past two or three days in the U.S but you are missing the whole point. Wow, I am still in shock.

Peter Miami

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 7, 2005, 13:39:

The best thing about that article The best thing about the article about that murder in the US is the assertation that the perp was high on XANAX at the time. I can't imagine anything less likely to incite murder than Xanax.

"I'm feeling really tranquil and sleepy. I guess I'll go murder someone with a hammer..."

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kernow62 says on Jun 7, 2005, 13:54:

Hammers should be banned!

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poco says on Jun 7, 2005, 14:03:

Thinking hammers should be banned Isn't half as bad a thought as this:

We don’t have any details,, for all we know the final outcome will show he had an accident, could be someone was helping him pry his card out with a knife and slipped on an banana, a chicken could have surprised his body guard and the gun accidentally discharged, fowl play for sure but still an accident.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kernow62 says on Jun 7, 2005, 14:15:

You are working too hard at this Poco.

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BlanquitoTampa says on Jun 7, 2005, 20:59:

come on Kernow the joke about fowl play was pretty funny

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Rubiazo says on Jun 7, 2005, 21:17:

The true murder rate is zero if you are not murdered and infinity if you are murdered!!

I don't think its safer in Colombian cities than in US cities in general, but I also don't buy this line about 'you will not come back if you go to certain neighborhoods'. They said that about the South Bronx, but I'm in the South Bronx EVERY DAY. I hung around Detroit during the early 90s when it was at its worst, and went to all the wrong areas. I visited the ghettos in Santiago (DR), Santo Domingo, San Juan. I went to TWO different favelas in Rio, and this was at like 1,2,3am. I purposely went to some of the worst neighborhoods in Bogota when I was there. I never fail to do this in any city I go to. I insist on seeing the worst parts. My pink gringo ass is still very much alive, thank you.

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lpdiver says on Jun 7, 2005, 21:41:

Now murderous sicaros Are enviromental victims? what pure unadulterated shit. The inner child concept and new math didn't work and this won't fly either.


T

"cook some rice!"

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lpdiver says on Jun 7, 2005, 21:46:

In Aruba Two men will be found guilty of the crime whether or not they did it. Period. the girl has long been pirated off the island and is busy in the prostitution trade by now. Exactly what has the US done for her?

T

"cook some rice!"

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jags44 says on Jun 7, 2005, 22:31:

She is dead for sure Not pirated. They will find her in less than 2 weeks.

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jags44 says on Jun 7, 2005, 22:32:

Dead She is and will be found in less than 2 weeks I think.

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jags44 says on Jun 7, 2005, 22:34:

Her parents should have tought her not to get into cars with strangers.

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poco says on Jun 7, 2005, 23:24:

Aruba Missing girl IP: Two men will be found guilty of the crime whether or not they did it. Period. the girl has long been pirated off the island and is busy in the prostitution trade by now. Exactly what has the US done for her?

You are joking aren't you???

Gosh, this says they are doing something

No one helping ?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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lpdiver says on Jun 8, 2005, 00:18:

Poco Nice sound bites. But what benefit has the girl received?

t

"cook some rice!"

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 07:35:

Americano What the h#ll is an Americano??? I thought that was anyone from the whole f#cking continent! Oh, was that some insecure person who was arguing that point? Yeah, it happens here everyday. No big deal. Go to a safer ATM and don't be an idiot.

Jay

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poco says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:09:

Clever IPDIVER:
Your original question:
Exactly what has the US done for her?


Now becomes
But what benefit has the girl received?

Knew there was a reason why the oil and gas business lost its appeal after 30 years. An attempt to make something idiot proof proved an impossible task, idiots are a clever lot.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Neonovo says on Jun 8, 2005, 10:38:

What the h#ll is an Americano??? Ask a chinese; ask a russian; ask a japanese, or german; ask Osama. They will all tell you who an American is. Ask any colombian (except a few lost souls here in PBH who believe the subject is debatable).

Or maybe you never heard a colombian bragging about "Mi nevera americana" or "mi novio americano" or "_____________ americano/a"(you fill in the blank)?

Paz
Neonovo

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:23:

I Agree I agree Neo. My fiancee refers to me as an "Americano." She's a Colombian so I would assume that is what Colombians call a person from the USA. ;)

Jay

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caslug says on Jun 8, 2005, 15:02:

unconfirm update... Here's what a poster on planet-love said about the shooting,

"The professor went to the bank and withdrew 5 million pesos (about $2200.00 USD). He took a cab home and was intercepted by two guys on a motorcycle. The professor refused to give up the money and was shot on the head. He lost his life and they took the money anyway. That tells you to give up the money or you will lose your life ... and the money!"

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ColombianoX says on Jun 8, 2005, 15:38:

"Ask a chinese; ask a russian; ask a japanese, or german; ask Osama. They will all tell you who an American is. Ask any colombian (except a few lost souls here in PBH who believe the subject is debatable)."

Neonovo,


I see, so now South Americans (and other North Americans) aren't also "American"? Better a "lost soul" than an ignoramus.


ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Lionheart says on Jun 8, 2005, 16:57:

off topic enough has been debated on PBH about Americano - if you need the satisfaction re-read the older threads.

no need to keep beating a dead horse, and this thread is about death at an ATM ... once dead it doesn't matter if you are Amricano or Purple-People-Eater.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 8, 2005, 22:49:

An interesting sidenote is my wife told me tonight that when a Colombian invites people out but wants to make clear that everyone is paying their own way (as opposed to being his guest), they refer to it as estilo americano. She noted that everyone at our gathering paid their own tab at the bar we were at.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jun 9, 2005, 06:31:

And Americans call that "going Dutch"....so what do the Dutch call it? ;-)

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Neonovo says on Jun 9, 2005, 10:58:

lpdiver's inner child needs to learn new math... lpdiver: "Now murderous sicaros are enviromental victims? what pure unadulterated shit. The inner child concept and new math didn't work and this won't fly either".

lpdiver, are you infering that some how my post escuses the murder?

In no way did I mean to infer these sicarios-assassins should not be persecuted; and someting tells me they will sooner than later, meet their reward extrajudicially.

I do hold that the ease-of-conciense with which us colombians take each other's lives is one of the influences from the environment in which we develop, be that Cali, Bogotá, Medellín, or any other city, town, or remote country side spot where we grow up.

The concept that our environment influences us, is not mine alone. Other posters very recently have stated, talking about Pablito, that "If he had had better opportunities and grown up in a different environment, (he may have) used his talents for good and not evil... "

Growing up in Colobmbia we cannot help but to hear about, read about, and too often, go through the ghastly experience of seeing not only our compatriots, but also our family members dissapear, an euphuism often used, I imagine, to try and and lessen the trauma which would be exacerbated by an accurate description of their fate.

lpdiver, maybe you are one of those colombians who has led a shelter life, aloof to the human cataclysim that is Colombia. Mabye not.

While I do appreciate eliciting colorful language that reflect both the emotional and intelectual state of its purveyor, I disdain your use of such progressive concepts such as the "inner child" or "new math" and your miserable attempt to malign them.

After all, without the advances of Quantum Physics we would all still be convinced that some where around the bend, there will be found a messiah who single-handedly will move us all either to heavens or to hell.

Furthermore, without an ability to get in touch with his inner child, how would have the Colonel fared? As you may recall, it was said of him, at the onset of his story, that "Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aureliano Buendia was to remember that distant afternoon when his father took him to discover ice."

Paz
Neonovo

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 9, 2005, 12:39:

The Comanches used to like to tie their captives up and disembowel them while they were still alive and then have the victims watch as the dogs ate their bowels. I'm thinking this was probably too good for Pablo Escobar.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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lockheed says on Jun 16, 2005, 14:42:

American killed at ATM Sometimes when these things happen I wonder if it was a hold up or if it was a planned assesination supose to be a hold up gone bad?
Sometimes some one you know maybe a maid, a young mistres, favorite trusted taxi driver, wife, wife family etc etc etc. Just for FCKING
money will do anything. Maybe he pissed some one off?
May he rest in peace.

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