American Men w/ Wives or Girlfriends in Colombia

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 07:47:

two very wise posts... from one who knows.......all.

you don't need to know more...
she can be a queen...
but you must be king.

and the oldgringo is old enough to be elmo's dad.

we got a new somamabeach...
some plagiarist.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 24, 2006, 08:39:

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 09:00:

bravo,..kat. another savvy dicho de la reina.

lucky thing la commandante is the mature one around here.

it's not fair!!!
the oldgringo spent thousands on the phone...
now,...it's free!!!

lucky thing it was worth it!

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 24, 2006, 09:07:

Not any more... Thanks to VOIP, Skype, Vonage, etc. you can at least reduce the phone bill component of the long-distance relationship.

None of the rest has changed, however.

The biggest problem I've seen with LDRs is that the distance and reduced communications makes it possible for someone to imagine what they wish to be in the relationship. Many things that would be inexcusable in a "local" relationship are shrugged off, or given the benefit of the doubt in a LDR. This is exactly what the gasolineras as well as the gringos who are all talk and no action, take advantage of.

In reality, you need to be more perceptive and curious as Cam describes above. If all is on the up-and-up, then there's no problem. If not, well, move on. It is sad to do, but what are your chioces. You sure aren't in any position to change their behavior.

At the same time, I don't think you need do set up "tests" for the person. Just listen...If they are telling a consistent story things are probably OK. If the story starts to change or changes on a daily basis, then you got a handful.

Those who make a living off of coming up with crises and tragedies that all need money to resolve are either a) very good at coming up with stories or b) have such a messed up life, you probably don't want to get too close to it.

But for however good intentioned Cam's, Elmo's, etc. advice is, sadly, it usually falls on deaf ears. Those who need it won't listen and those who listen don't need it.

I'm convinced you find what you look for. If you're looking for a "crisis" to save, there are plenty of them out there. If you're looking for "fast and loose," you can find that, too (if they don't find you first). At the same token, if you're looking for honest and sincere, they can be found, as well.

A lot of the people Cam is addressing remind me of myself in a younger day. They don't have the self-esteem to feel they deserve a good, honest partner and derive their self-image from the percevied difference in status between the "rich" gringo rescuing/saving/impressing the "poor" colombinana. It's hard to watch someone else go through that, knowing what rapids lie ahead for them down river, which, I suppose, is what motivated Cam's post, but some people only know how to learn the hard way.

You can't save everyone.

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miamimike says on Jan 24, 2006, 09:20:

Good post Cam and a Good reason not to send Money.... To Chicas in Col

"Those who make a living off of coming up with crises and tragedies that all need money to resolve are either a) very good at coming up with stories or b) have such a messed up life, you probably don't want to get too close to it.

But for however good intentioned Cam's, Elmo's, etc. advice is, sadly, it usually falls on deaf ears. Those who need it won't listen and those who listen don't need it".

Sage advice Cam and re-inforces why I think its foolish to send money if you, the sender, is not there to send how the recipient is dispursing it(on what, with who, how, why)...Use yer head for something else then hanging yer Hat on LOL

Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte después Bésame, bésame mucho Como si fuera esta noche La última vez Bésame, bésame mucho Que tengo miedo a perderte Perderte de

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Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:20:

You have to understand, littl You have to understand, little girls have fewer chores than boys.

Not in Colombia, they don't. Especially the lower the strata, the less true this is.

You will easily find young Colombian girls picking up after their brothers, helping mom with the cooking and baby sitting the little ones. This is especially true the lower the strata. Not unusual to find 9 year old strata 1-3 Colombian girls who sweep the house, cook dinner and care for their little brothers while mom is out working.

Colombia is still a machista culture where house chores = things women do.

The only exception to this are strata 5 or 6 girls who probably don't need a foreigner to rescue them anyway.

You guys are making assumptions about Colombian family dynamics based on limited second hand experience. I grew up in a Colombian family, so did Kat. Trust me, boys DON'T generally do chores.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:30:

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:32:

yep..it's true... la commandante still picks up after her corroncho brothers,
and,,colombiche,..she can find anyone in cartagena... today.
..if you still are looking.

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Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:35:

Oldgringo I couldn't possibly be looking for a colombian lady, because I happen to be one myself ;)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:41:

a lot of girls help out the family too a lot of girls 5 or 6 yrs old, are out working to help the family. I have aunts who dropped out of school at 9 or 10 to help out their parents.

Ever watch "La Vendedora de Rosas"?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:44:

Yeah Many many times I watched "El vendedor de empanadas", "El vendedor de pitadoras", "El vendedor de sombrillas"..... More times than I can handle to watch.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:44:

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:47:

Yes Boys can do anything outside the house, girls can do both outside and inside the house. This is how it generally works.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:48:

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:48:

Butiburras Le ponemos la burra pa la farra!

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:49:

Kat I think you and I are on the same wavelength today, we are typing the same things at the same time.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:50:

kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:54:

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:02:

sorry colombiche.. thought you were looking for cartagena listings,,,
i know your a girl....duh....
can ou believe we have a donald trump wannabe for PM.
thats why the oldgringo don't vote....politics is hopeless.
can you imagine?...30% of vancouver voted FOR svend robinson?
better spend your time on nookie, or money, or spiritual meditation.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:24:

They certainly do not need my seal of approval but Colombiche and Kat are absolutely right. My two stepsons hardly do a damm thing around the house but my stepdaughter helps her mother all the time. The situation is even worse (if that's possible) with the older generation of my wife's siblings. The guys are absolute freeloaders and the women are all hard workers, in and out of the house.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:29:

hey cowboy... wasn't it greenday who you stole the disclaimer from?

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:45:

I'm basically with kat and colombiche on this one. The trend may be changing, slowly, but surely. Last time in Cali I was a little surprised to see many boys doing chores at my friends' homes and their moms were saying that hey we're not living in middle ages any longer.

Traditionally girls have always had a greater share of chores in a Colombian home than boys. Just as women have been in charge most of the housework. It's only the families that still have a live-in maid (many middle class families only have hired cleaning or washing help two to three days a week) where the children of the family (boys and girls) don't have to pitch in.

I had a visit of an elderly aunt who went back to Colombia telling horror stories of my family, especially me making my son to do dishes according to a schedule:)

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:56:

Didn't you ever hear the Colombian saying "Hombre en la cocina, huele a rila de gallina?"

That says it all.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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poco says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:06:

Blood Alcohol Content may be responsible At least temporarily

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:11:

my very dear departed mother-in-law put it even more delicately: "Un hombre en la cocina huele a mierda de gallina". She'd turn over in her grave if she knew that her grandson is doing all the cooking and other chores as he is living by himself.

Cheers,
Desi
Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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cam0940 says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:13:

You guys, I was very serious when I wrote that post and you all have jumped on the one clause that talks about who does more chores: boys or girls. Actually that paragraph was talking about household dynamics in general, and I had to lump American households with Colombian households because it was already long as it is. There was no time to write a thesis on Colombian households and frankly, I'm not qualified anyway.

The point was, in Colombia and America, the girls are the princesses and the boys are well... the boys. Every parent among you I'm sure is more delicate verbally and physically with their girls than they are their boys.

Before anyone runs off on a tangent with that statement, I'm talking girls relative to boys. We generally say that women are more sensitive than men. I don't necessarily know how much of that is hormonal vs social. I think boys in Western culture, hell all over the world, are just socialized to suck it up more than girls are. Because no one wants to see their darling princess cry.

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strata2woman says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:14:

hello boys and girls it amazes me how silly some of the posts are, colombiche you seem to have a problem with us “low strata class” humans, first you referred to Mexicans and Salvadorians in one of your former posts as “greasy” and now you seem to know so much about us low strata colombian women that I wondered if you are no one of us.

Corroncha and proud of it! To yourself be true.

"If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell. I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days." - Sylvia Plath

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oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:46:

the oldgringo.. got the best of estrato 2..
now she supports me too.

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Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:47:

GIB ehrr, I mean STRATA2, you must be referring Strata, you must be referring to this post of mine from the past:

"When I used to go Spanish clubbing was when some greasy Mexican or Salvadoran
guy with Jerry curls and a little mustache asked me to dance..."

As you can see, I was referring to a specific incident with a specific type of person at a nightclub, I wasn't referring to every person from those two countries.

And as far as estratos go, I brought them into the equation here because the higher up the estrato ladder you go, the more disposable income you have, the more likely you are to have hired help, the less likely you are to ask your kids to do chores..

Yo no tengo el mas minimo problema con la gente de ningun estrato, seria ridiculo tener problemas con alguien basado en un estrato que el gobierno ha designado para medir a la gente, no crees?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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poco says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:50:

Education and a work ethic is important The boy at my house has chores, lots, he didn’t do squat (he did sweep the floor once a week) before I showed up. He ALWAYS washes the dishes,, unless he goes to school in the morning. Ha,, he doesn’t wash his breakfast dishes,, but he sure as hell makes his own breakfast !!! He always washes his own clothes, puts them on the line and returns them to his room. Before she didn’t have a washing machine,, now we do,, now the kid is getting “mechanical aptitude”.

Unbelievable,, after over a year, one day at the dinner table he said boys (men ?) don’t do dishes. Why,, because he might become gay, and gay domestics make LESS than female domestics,, which must be similar to working for free.

His mother verified this was the general thinking,, food and dishes is womans work and sure enough he might become gay,,

This was shocking,, what course of action is correct ? He still does dishes and washes clothes but I brought him a jar of KY Jelly, some condoms along with a spanish medical book showing him potential pitfalls.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 13:07:

hey,..thats MY problem area... why did you have to go share that with them?

while the oldgringo goes along with ladies in the kitchen,
they are there mostly for decoration and cleaning.
...in the oldgringos' castillo.

this discussion does shed some light on the cultural
evolution though....no offence, but, sorry,
no matter how you slice it or dice it, the ladies can't cook worth a damm......the saying is.."you spice like a girl"

except in thailand.

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LOCO HOMBRE says on Jan 24, 2006, 15:29:

a question I hear a lot about men colombian men 50,60 years of age or older with 17 or 18 year old girls in colombia.Why is that found so much more in colombia than u.s.....is it just for money....I don't think so but what do I know?I mean I am 33 and have friends 20 -23 in colombia and they all have new born half brothers or sisters by there fathers 18 year old wife.....any input..
I agree with cam ....if she is'nt grateful or you have any doubt ...leave her alone and don't sent a cent..

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 24, 2006, 18:47:

No Loco... It's got nothing to do with money at all. Why would you even suspect such a thing?

Colombianas just find balding pudgy men with declining libidos completely irresistable. They especially like men who can't speak Spanish - it avoids lots of uncomfortable intimate conversations.

But money? Na. All Colombianas are pure as the driven snow, looking for love, whatever the cost.

Shoot, half those guys are broke. Haven't you noticed all the old gringos selling chicklets and used magazines under the clock tower?

Wasteland

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2006, 21:41:

Yeah, Oldgringo, I did steal it from him.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2006, 21:42:

I don't know where you get the idea that the girls are treated as little princesses. My wife reams out her daughter as hard or harder than her two sons. She doesn't think twice about slapping her either.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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cam0940 says on Jan 24, 2006, 22:02:

I can't believe you disagreed with that. When was the last time any little boy was dressed up in a pink lace dress with shiny shoes and stockings, meticulous care taken with his hair including bows and curls, earrings, and paraded down to the photo studio? Boys treatment, in comparison, is very plain vanilla. If for no other reason because Dads don't want their sons growing up to be pansies.

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 24, 2006, 22:34:

You won't find that in my house Our Princesa Colombiana wouldn't be caught dead in a pink lace anything. We were in the store, the other day, and I suggested a cute dress....I got the evil eye for the rest of the day for that idea.

I think this is a case of "Your mileage may vary."

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COLDK says on Jan 25, 2006, 01:01:

"You have to be investigative..."

This should also apply for those colombian women that are looking for a serious relationship with a nice man and they end in a new country with who knows what kind of maniatic... Long distance relationships are a risk for both parties.

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aaronfromus says on Jan 25, 2006, 01:02:

good observations cam0940 Cam, regardless of the endless exceptions that people seem to be groping for, you've made some good observations.

I agree with Colombiche that chores around the house are something women are more likely to do the lower the strata. But using a word like "machista," to imply that women (and not men) being reponsible for chores is somehow a bad thing or that women are somehow victims of men because they cook food and wash dishes, give me a break. I wish more women in the US not only didn't complain about washing the dishes, but knew how to cook more than from a can or a box. Feminist arguments are soooo tired, lets get off that horse.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 05:32:

There has been a big fight in Congress over this issue of providing background checks on American men that foreign women are considering for marriage. I think this is a good step, because there are plenty of men who are abusive and have a long track record of horrible relationships that would scare off most ¨good¨ and genuine women in a heartbeat. Many many control their women econonically, don´t let them leave the house, are extremely jealous, obsessive and possessive.

Of course, that leads to the obvious corollary...why don´t web-based dating sites like match.com or e-harmony have the same background checks on people who sign up for their sites? Why would a stranger in the US be any ¨better¨ than a stranger in another country? Can websites be held responsible for the actions of a maniac who meets a woman throught their service, or are they simply a ¨meeting¨ facilitator and not responsible for the eventual results, good or bad?

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caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 06:41:

http://www.protectionproject.org/eo1.htm

Physical Abuse: Ngan, a twenty-one year old Filipina came to the United States having married a U.S. citizen through an international matchmaking organzation. She endured repeated physical assaults at the hands of her husband who had decided that he had not receive the picture bride that he had ordered. Frightened in the beginning, Ngan did not report what had happened to her. As the violence increased, Ngan’s neighbors rescued her, and from the hospital she was placed in a shelter for battered Asian women.xiv

Physical Abuse, Forced Motherhood and Threats of Deportation: In a story of forced motherhood, Raco, a twenty-four year old Filipina, married a US citizen, who had corresponded with her romantically for ten years. Soon after her marriage, Raco began to be severely beaten by her husband. Because she did not want to bear children immediately, the assaults against her became more severe. When Raco did become pregnant, she was threatened by her husband who said that he would not sponsor her permanent residence if she did not carry the child to term. She finally fled to a shelter, after the beatings continued to intensify even when she decided to keep the child.xv

Physical Abuse, Threats of Deportation, Restriction of Movement and Murder: In the most famous mail order bride abuse case, Anastasia King from Kyrgyzstan married Ingle King, Jr., who strangled her to death in September 2000. It has been reported that in her diaries, Anastasia wrote that he she was sexually and physically assaulted by King, that he withheld her college tuition, restricted her freedom of movement, and threatened her with deportation and death.xvi

Physical Abuse and Murder: Alla Barney, a twenty-six year old Ukrainian mail order bride was stabbed to death by her husband, Lester S. “Stuart” Barney, 58, after she had obtained a restraining order against him and temporary custody of their son on allegations of abuse. Alla had met Barney through an online mail order bride service.xvii

Physical Abuse and Murder: After a year long courtship, Susana Remerata, a Filipina, married Timothy Blackwell, who had found her on the Asian Encounters website. After their wedding in the Philippines, Blackwell became abusive and attempted to choke Susana on several occasions. Susana had filed for divorce, but before the proceedings were set to begin, Blackwell shot and murdered Susana and her unborn child in a Seattle Courthouse.xviii

Sexual Abuse of a Child, Forced Labor: Norman H. McDonald pled guilty to sexually abusing his Ukrainian mail order wife’s daughter since the age of 3. McDonald had also forced his wife to hold several jobs.xix

Physical Abuse, Failure to Provide Immigration Information: Nataliya Fox, a Russian who came to the United States on a K-1 visa, has recently filed a lawsuit against Encounters International, a long-standing matchmaking service in Maryland. Nataliya was originally set to marry a Virginian whom she had met through Encounters, but upon the failure of that marriage, Encounters set her up with another match, James Fox. Nataliya and James were married within the month, however Nataliya was severely assaulted by James while she was breastfeeding their newborn daughter. A few months prior to that incident, Nataliya had informed Encounters that her husband had hit her. Nataliya’s lawsuit charges Encounters with failing to have run a background check on her husband’s previous history (which includes an accusation from a former fiancée of his attempt to strangle her to death) and with failing to provide her with the legally required immigration information about her ability to self-petition for permanent residence as a battered immigrant woman. James Fox is currently married to another mail-order bride.xx

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 07:57:

I don't know Caulfield... This is going to be a sensitive subject in a forum such as this. But what the hell?

Of course guys seeking mail order brides are wierdos. I don't care what convoluted explanation they give... they're losers who can't make a relationship happen the old fashioned way.

I'm not talking about personal adds. That's one thing. But the entire mail-order-bride-from-the-developing-world is something else entirely. They're freaks, and nothing they do should surprise anyone.

But do you really want the government involved in background checks? You want your taxes to pay for that? Or maybe they'll make it a mandatory surcharge for those using the matchmaker's services? How would that work? Before you could even correspond with your match, you'd have to pay several hundred dollars for a background check?

Screw that. People need to exercise some common sense and take some minimal responsibility for their own lives. I don't want the government involved... isn't it enough that convictions are public record?

You want a background check? Hire a private eye!

Want to do a background check on one of the skanks listed at "Colombia Singles," or some other such site targetting American Peter Pans?

Simple: look at "employment." If it's blank, or says "model" or "self-employed," she's a hooker. What else do you need to know?

Wasteland

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:26:

I'm going to share something with you guys that's going to open myself up for all kinds of attacks, but regardless of what you guys say, I was there.

My ex-wife was 8 months pregnant with our daughter. I went to work one morning at 4:30 AM. I left the office at about 3:30 PM, exhausted, and arrived home at 4:00 PM. I swear to God, all I wanted was to take my tie and dress shoes off, loosen my collar, and sit down for a minute. When I arrived in the bedroom, I found it ransacked. My wife had lost a friendship ring some guy had given her before our marriage. I do not believe the ring was given as a romantic gesture because the guy was a dentist and she was his Dental Assistant. He was 40 years her senior and fulfilled the role of the "father she never had". I met him on several occasions, we'd grilled fish tacos in the backyard, I'd seen them interact. She was desperate for a Dad. Anyway, the ring turned up missing. I was accused of taking it. Frankly I was not in the mood for the accusation and denial routine, so I just said "Look, I haven't seen that ring in three months". She kept insisting that I had to have taken it because rings don't just get up and walk away. The basis was supposedly that I was jealous. The truth is, I didn't give a damn about the ring. I really didn't. Sorry she lost it, but only because losing it meant that I was being accused of having something to do with it. I was in the room for approximately 2 minutes before realizing I couldn't convince her otherwise, so I left and went outside for 5 minutes. I came back in the room. This time all MY drawers were emptied on the floor, my clothes had been taken out of the closet and were strewn across the floor as well. She was searching my pockets. As she finished going through my favorite pair of slacks and got ready to throw them over her shoulder, I grabbed the wrist clutching the pants to keep her from throwing them. I said "Hey, I said I didn't know where the ring is, why are you throwing MY stuff around?" Her answer, and I'll never forget it was "Because I know you took it you bastard!" and she socked me with her free hand. I take a step back. She stands up. "Give it to me! Give it to me!" Socking me twice more "I don't have the fuckin thing!" w/ my arms up around my face. Every time I denied it she got more angry and more physical. This shit went on for the next 10-12 minutes. I was tired of getting hit. I could easily defend myself against her, but instead I grab her wrists again, both wrists. I look her in the eye and say "You need to calm down! Just because you can't find it doesn't mean I have it." Now that I have her wrists, as far as she's concerned it's a fight. Wriggling to get free, she starts screaming "Let me go, Let me go" and so she knees me in the groin. She's 7 or 8 months pregnant, mind you, so kneeing me in the groin she fell off balance. She didn't fall straight down because I had her wrists, she kind of "slumped" down. So now she's on the ground kicking. I sit on her legs. By this time I have been scratched all over my face and neck, I'm bleeding, I have a bite mark in my BACK, my white dress shirt is torn halfway off, all this before I made the decision to grab her wrists. I look her in the eyes and I say "Tiffany, look at me. LOOK AT ME! Look at what you've done to me!" She's screaming "Let me go!" at the top of her lungs. I say "Look at me Tiffany. I'm gonna let you go, but I want you to promise you're gonna stop this. I'm tired, I don't know where the ring is, and this is stupid. Are you going to stop?" She screamed "Let me go!" about 5 or 6 times before she said "OK". I let her go. As we were cleaning up afterwards, there was a knock at the door. LAPD. Evidently since the windows were open, a neighbor heard a woman screaming "Let me go!" and called the police. I was never particularly "excited" during the whole thing, and I wasn't speaking as loud. Besides, I don't think screaming makes a point any more valid. I hate it when people scream thinking that makes their point stronger. Anyway, the neighbor could only hear my ex-wife. In California, once the police come to your house, someone has to go to jail. The police look at me, bloody, shirt ripped halfway off my back, bite mark in my back, and then they look at her, without a scratch on her. Hair a little messed up but otherwise flawless. My skin under her fingernails. My blood on her clothes. They say "Well really it's up to you guys to decide who goes, but somebody has to go." Tiffany says "I'll go." Fuckin cop turns to me and asks "Do you really want your pregnant wife to go to jail? I don't really think you're a bad guy, but the law is the law. Someone has to go and if you do, you'll be out tomorrow." I say to myself "Fuck it" and I volunteer to take Tiffany's place. They handcuff me with my hands in front and put a jacket over my hands so the neighbors couldn't "see" I was handcuffed. They led me outside. The entire neighborhood was standing on their curbs watching. In jail, my wife called maybe 10 or 12 times asking the jailer to let me go. My Dad had to come down there at midnight to bail me out.

A week later the City Attorney called us to her office to review the case, because the City Attorney was thinking about taking over the case to prosecute me as a wife beater. My ex-wife and I went down there. The City Attorney read the police report. These bastards wrote that I came home frustrated from a hard day at work and just for no reason beat my wife up. They said my blood, scratches and all that were signs that my wife put up a fight, that she was trying to defend herself. They said I threw her to the ground and sat on her stomach, threatening the life of our child and that if the child died, it would be murder. They said my wife was afraid for her life. The City Attorney finished the report and looked at us. My ex-wife just sat there. I said "That doesn't sound anything like what happened." The City Attorney asked my wife "Do you see anything in the report that should be changed?" My wife said "No." I said "Tiffany, did you just hear the police's version of the story?" She said "Oh, read it again." The City Attorney read the story again and asked my wife if she would testify that that's what happened. By the grace of God my ex-wife said "No, that's not how it happened." And she told the truth. In the car afterward, I asked my ex-wife why she initially told the City Attorney that nothing should be changed and she said "I just said 'No' because I wanted to get out of there." I said "Don't you realize what was happening? They're trying to tell this horrible story about me so they can prosecute me." As it turned out, the City Attorney decided to drop the charges for lack of evidence. I had to get a letter from them saying that there were no charges pending against me for my employer.

The moral of the story is this: I am automatically suspicious of any report that says "Oh the guy just beat up his wife for no reason, he threw her around, he did this, he did that." I am especially suspicious when they say "He tried to control her, he was insecure, etc." They're just prosecution buzzwords and it doesn't mean that it happened that way. There's still a police report filed somewhere at the LAX courthouse that uses the same type of bullshit language about the incident at MY house. According to them I worked an 11 hour day, came home and beat the shit out of my 7 month pregnant wife for no reason at all within 15 minutes of me getting home. Even though I was the one with all the wounds and she just had her hair ruffled from ransacking the apartment and when she fell down. I got home at 4, I was in handcuffs by 4:30. I think they try to spin these stories as much as they possibly can. None of caulfield's examples show what really happened. We don't know WHAT the woman was doing. All the women are portrayed as victims, just like my wife was. And the man is portrayed as a raging monster. So I don't want to sound soft on domestic violence, but generally men just want to sit down. I don't know ANY man that enjoys arguing with his wife. Men just want to get to a sensible end to the conflict, women seem to be in it for distance and irritation.

Now apply this to international relationships. You get a woman over here who knows how the "system" works, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to use the buzzwords and destroy the guy so she can be free to do whatever she wants. So my response to caulfield's examples are that yes, they are sad stories, but suspect. We don't know if these guys were being taken for a ride by malicious women who knew how to work it.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:32:

No, this would simply be a formalization or legalization of the reality that all women from foreign countries, especially where the women do not fluently speak English, SHOULD be given access to background histories and criminal checks for the men they are going to marry before they receive a K-1 or K-3 visa.

The US government and State Dept. check out the backgrounds of every woman that comes to the US, and I certainly feel that women have a right to know they are marrying a guy that has been divorced five times and has two domestic violence accusations in his past. If she still wants to move forward, caveat emptor.

And yes, any man who spends thousands of dollars in this pursuit should not be opposed to spending another $100-200 to give his future bride peace of mind. Of course, that does not guarantee her safety, and many cases are underreported...77% of foreign marriages have witnessed domestic violence, whereas less than 10% of that is actually reported to the authorities. Yeah, these surveys and polls are not scientific, and the numbers are still in the low thousands of marriages per year in the US. But that doesn´t mean the man should have all the power and rights....and yes, many women can and do come to the US and then turn around and file false domestic violences charges, which, by the way, stay on your record for many years whether you are innocent or not, AS A WAY OF STAYING IN THE US AND ESCAPING FROM A MAN THEY USUALLY DISLIKE.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:32:

I also don't believe (but I could be wrong) that there's such a thing as a "mail order bride". If you buy the address or phone number from a catalog or an internet site, you still have to court the person. It's not like the women are "products" that you buy. They're people who must voluntarily agree to enter a relationship with YOU. They don't just come off the shelf and go home with whoever writes them.

Someone mentioned match.com or eharmony.com. Excellent examples. The only difference with match.com or eharmony.com is that your communication with the person can be electronic, since they're required to be members too. International introduction agencies, because many of the women (or men) are in countries or situations where internet connectivity isn't as accessible as it is in the U.S. or U.K., must of needs facilitate communication by telephone or letters. The old fashioned way. Or you can send an email and some kind of way they get it to the girl. But it's not like most of them have email at home or in their office. Aside from that technological difference, you still have to court and win the girl. It's not like you just pay and some girl shows up at your doorstep with her suitcase. I wouldn't be surprised if the term "mail order bride" was made up by some bitter American woman to minimize what really goes on in the development of an international relationship. In fact, that same bitter American woman is probably posting on Match.com trying to find a man herself.

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Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:40:

Holy Shit Cam... After THAT story, I don't think I'll EVER get married.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:44:

My lawyer can beat up your lawyer... RE: Dating Agency Litigation -

What's next... sueing the priest who married you because your marriage failed ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:52:

My mother in law has chased my father in law with broken bottles, a hammer, and God knows what else. She's a fiera. In the last year at least 3 times she has been prepared to go to battle with other women in the neighborhood to protect her family's respect or some other principle. My point: from what I have seen domestic violence is not considered as delicate a subject in other countries as it is in the U.S. The U.S. is very tough on domestic violence (as it pertains to men as perpetrators and women as victims). I think it's B.S. The first thing people say is "Oh, you're bigger than her so you shouldn't hit her." True, but then we also generally accept that women are more emotional creatures. So who's most likely to lose control? Women are statistically more than twice as likely to use a weapon in a domestic violence incident. Roughly half of all domestic murders are women murdering their male partners. We spin that and say it's "defense". Not necessarily true. See this is all just another grand scheme to hold women blameless, as I was saying in my original post. Women ought to be just as responsible for their behavior as men have to be. Men are more than 10 times less likely to file a domestic violence report than women are. Men just don't call the police saying "My 110 lb wife just hit me." So you don't see women going to jail for it. So the statistics are skewed and frankly, worthless. Yet we base our laws on them. When LAPD comes to your house, they are prejudiced against the man because "70 some odd percent of all domestic violence cases involve the man beating the woman" but that's B.S. because men don't report it. You can't base law and prejudice on reported statistics when the overwhelming majority of female on male crimes are unreported. So I believe that in the U.S. and especially abroad, women feel that they can do these things with impunity. All they have to say is "I was afraid for my life, so I cut his balls off. Or I stabbed him in his sleep." Or she can slap you, punch you, kick you, bite you, and all you can do as a male is run out of your own house and wander the streets until this bitch calms down. If you report it, LAPD will ask "Well WHY did she hit you? Was she defending herself?" But if you restrain her, you're on offense as far as they're concerned. It's BS. I believe that men take more to get to "fighting mad". I believe women can be there in the blink of an eye, because in the back of her mind she knows there are no severe consequences for her. Turn on your TV. You see women slapping men or hitting men and it's seen as comedy or at least justified. Man hits a woman on TV it's drama or horror. We are subconciously teaching the population that this is "OK", when the truth is it is just as wrong for her as it is for him.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:54:

I had a relationship, both inside the US and outside, with a woman from Russia. We lived together for two and one-half years in the US.

I will tell you this much, many of the foreign website operators tell the girls they are signing up to be ¨penpals¨ because they don´t want to admit the truth, that they are basically ¨selling¨ the women, whether it is $10 for an address or $2,000 for an exclusive, full-service match-making service that babysits you.

Many of the men simply sent pictures to my ex of their car, house, boat...told about how much money they made or how important they were, about what exotic vacations they could go on, etc.

I suppose I ¨won¨ if that is what you want to call it because I was the opposite in every way...a teacher in an inner city school, a volunteer services program director...in other words, I was not trying to impress her, I was just being myself.

In another sense, I lost because we are no longer together as a couple, but the main reason is because we were incompatible. We are still good friends. She´s incredibly intelligent...many of the women from Russia have better university educations, MAs, PhDs...than in the US. She is a model part-time now in the US, but it is not her primary identity. But I can guarantee that is possible to meet good people from other countries on the Internet.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:55:

She's from New Orleans, Louisiana elmo. Ironically, she went back there after the divorce and well... you know what happened there. As I watched it on TV I could not force myself to feel sympathy because of all that happened in that relationship. They say what comes around goes around. It's karma, baby.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:01:

Just read the story of former professional baseball pitcher Chuck Finley and Tawny Kitaen, perhaps best known for being the girl in the Whitesnake video.

http://www.glennsacks.com/kitaen_plays_the.htm

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Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:06:

If you can't win... don't play. Men don't have a chance in this country.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:10:

Well, I dissagree with you both. Caulfield,

The State Department has a legal responsibility to vet immigrants to the US. That doesn't translate to a legal reponsibility to vet potential American mates for foreign nationals...

For crying out loud, who IS going to pay for that?

I'm not. My tax dollars should go to background checks to protect Filippinnas who want to use a matching service from borderline American men? What, until they find a good one???

No joda. I think my taxes are already stretched pretty tightly, thanks!

The problem with suggesting that the CLIENT pay is that it simply won't work. It flies in the face of international commerce and human behavior.

The US has no jurisdiction to pass such a law for an agency operating out of Colombia. It could do so for a business incorporated in the US... which would have the effect of simply destroying that industry in the US. Clients, especially those with skeletons in the closet, will go where they want.

Sure, Congress is pondering all kinds of convoluted ways to get around sovereignty issues and market forces. They will ALL be invasive, expensive, and worst of all, inneffective. Just another example of the law of unintended consequences.
________________

And Cam...

If you don't think a mail order bride industry exists, I recommend you hit google. Yes indeed, it does.

I'll admit the dividing line can be very grey. Eharmony and Match certainly look a lot like the "international matchmaking sites," but in practice things are very different.

If I use Match to meet another American in my city, yes, I have to court her. And she me. Proximity, language, and culture make it in both parties' interest to have a normal courtship.

When a man from Demoine corresponds with a Ukranian, proximity, language, and culture reduce such courtship to an empty dance. Is he going to fly out to the Ukraine every weekend to hang out with her, her friends, and her family? How many HOURS in each other's presence do you think they'll spend before they make huge legal commitments to each other?

Will a woman allow herself to be bought like a piece of furniture?

YES. Some women will.

That's the point. When two cultures with such a wide disparity in wealth and power collide, yes... some will do anything to get out. And some men avail themselves of that desparation.

I'm making what I would call a valid generalisation here.

For the record: I'm sure true love happens. I'm not sure it really even matters, given that marriage has been an economic institution since the dawn of time. I'm not even condemning the mail order bride phenomenon; if people want to do that, they should be able to do that. It's not up to us to judge.

I'm just suggesting that all parties have to use common sense, take some personal responsibility, and consider the REALITIES of the situation.

Equating Yahoo personals, for example, with "International Affair," isn't being realistic. There is a LOT more risk involved with "International Affair."

Wasteland

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:14:

Sad sad sad. It happens to men everyday, and the article seems to imply that judges KNOW it's happening. The article illustrates, as was the case in my situation, that neither the criminal court nor family court seems to care about FINDING THE TRUTH. That is what makes them a farce. And the police are even worse. They're just Joes that come to your house to take someone to jail, regardless.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:22:

Wastelandlive, you draw valid differneces between Match.com and International Meet-a-Friend or whatever the agencies are called. Still, if you and I go down to Home Depot to buy garden hose, whichever garden hose I pick is going home with me. I think to say "Mail Order Bride" equates the international relationship to random picking and choosing, just like the garden hose. I think it's more involved than that. Obviously for logistics reasons it's less intensive than a local girl met through Match.com. But at the same time it's more than "I'm Joe, I paid my $29.95, see ya in a couple of months." I don't think that kind of service exists, because that would actually be trafficking in persons. That's the difference between an international introduction agency and a Mail Order Bride.

I'm granting you that a girl might be overwhelmed and inclined to go with a marginal guy who shows interest in her. But she's not compelled. That's the difference between slavery and international introduction.

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Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:26:

Either way, you're hosed. But at least the garden variety is guaranteed or your money back.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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caribgirl says on Jan 25, 2006, 10:05:

I think meeting throug
I think meeting through local dating agencies and marriage brokers that are International are very different. As someone pointed out,dating a person From Michiagn if you live in New York is very different than dating a latina in Colombia or a Russian girl in Russia if you live in New York.

Lots of people who use those agencies are not fluent in each others language and Communication is key to any relationship. Also,Though I was not born is the U.S. I was raised here and still find a few cultural issues I was raised with entering my marriage.The cultural differences can be a bit confusing to both parties too.

Now if you date locally,you can travel state to state on weekends or at least a couples of times a month and speak with each other everyday being fluent with each others language,again that is a big help.

A woman or man you meet on Match.com locally most likely will already have a career and be updated on local laws and customs. They also drive and will be more independent. A foreign spouse may not.

I have seen many foreign men living in the U.S. go back to their countries and marry a woman from back home. But they have the advantage of language and culture and usually the help of family and friends to weed out a good and sincere girl for them,

We also cannot ignore the fact that seeing how your significant other handles certain situations and crisis over time is a big indicator of who they really are. International dating where there is a language barrier hardly has that oppurtunity for each to really know who they are getting. There are rose covered glasses on both parties. While they both excuse some of the behavior they would not put up with from the local guys or gals. I've seen men and women ignore red flags left and right,why? Because they have invested so much financially and emotionally .

Now if you speak each other's language fluently ,understand each others culture and the Foreign person has been to the U.S. and somewhat understands the culture so her rose colored glasses are more realistic and she has a career and can financially take care of herself if she had to,or family and support syatem in the U.S.then the situation is more like Match.com.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 10:21:

Nice post, caribgirl. I'm not saying that a dating agency is as good as a Match.com (which is not perfect, either), all I'm saying is that it's not as simple as picking any woman you want off the shelf.

And Mario, your story is worse. I really have a problem with the fact that this kind of thing could happen to you, it's wrong. At least I didn't have any penalties associated with my incident, aside from the roughly 8 hours I spent in the clink. Mine was over in a day, you had constant reminders. I offer you my deepest sympathies.

BTW, that counts as a "statistic", the type of statistic women's activists and legislators point to perpetuate the DV lie. That's why any story that just says "He beat his wife" is suspect to me. In fact, I outright DOUBT those stories unless more info is given.

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 25, 2006, 11:35:

Yikes I lead such a boring life...

1st, I don't understand why more WOMEN aren't offended by the type of cases cited by Mario and Cam. If women as a group were sincerely concerned with reducing domestic violence, they should be outraged at the frivolous cases or the mis-applied cases as they distract from the ones where a woman is actually in danger. Instead, because of the "we must all stick together" attitude, it's turned from "women against domestic violence" to "women against men." The view seems to be that there are two types of men: those who HAVE comitted an act of domestic violence and those who WILL.

This applies to false claims of rape as well, where a woman has consensual sex but later changes her mind for some reason of invents the story completely. These cases are simply dismissed from view rather than scorned.

WRT Mail-Order brides, if there is any place where disclosure should be required, it should be from the agency more than from its members/clientele.

How often does an agency in disclose to the prospective brides what they are signing up for and how the agency makes its money? Do the women know these men are paying umpty-thousand dollars just to get their address? (Do they imagine that such fees might set up certain expectations in their minds?) My guess is there's as much fast talking on the woman's side of the transaction as there is on the man's side.

The story cited earlier sounds more like a calculating woman who knows how to work the system than some poor, helpless victim. Ironically, I've known some women who are very good at playing the victim and manipulating the situation so as to maximize their "victimhood." So I, too, have become somewhat slower to jump on "that poor dear" bandwagon when reading anecdotes such as those cited from the web-site. Sure, it's possible that a good-hearted woman was taken in by a cold-hearted man, but rarely are the cases that cut-and-dried.

While I now have a Colombian wife, I don't understand how you can have a relationship (other than sexual, of course) with someone you can't talk to. While my Spanish is hardly fluent, I did study it for several years before dipping into the Colombian dating pool. So, in my case, I had at least some cultural and linguistic familiarity with whom I was seeking. Couples who share very little in common linguisticly must be psychic. But there is still alot about relationships that I don't understand so I'll keep an open mind in the mean time.

Some time ago, I was looking at the pictures from one "international match-making agency" that arranged these "mixer vacations" where the agency would make all the travel arrangements for the gringo to fly to the foreign country and meet a bunch of women at a "party" (guaranteed 2-1 ratio or better!) then they also had a couple of romantic trips/evenings/outings, etc planned for later so you and whoever the lucky girl you choose could consummate your new found friendship/romance. Anyway, the photos were hilarious. The stunned looks on faces were priceless. All the gringos looked like the stereotypical 40-yo kid in a candy store and the women (girls) all looked anywhere from stunned to "I hit the jackpot!" Thus perpetuating the stereotype... That's about as "mail-order" as it gets, I suppose. "Come on over and pick the one you want to take home!" It might work for some, but that's not my style (especially now that I'm married!)

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:07:

Cam Not that there's a lot of point in arguing here... I just want to tell you that as somebody who has spent a good portion of his life overseas, I find some of your assumptions startling:

1. "I think to say "Mail Order Bride" equates the international relationship to random picking and choosing, just like the garden hose. I think it's more involved than that."

What would you call a guy choosing from a list of pictures, with descriptions less than 100 words? How much more involved is it that than picking the hose? A brief email correspondence, and then you're off?

2. "Obviously for logistics reasons it's less intensive than a local girl met through Match.com."

Ya. That's the point. Several orders of magnitude less intensive.

3. "... I don't think that kind of service exists, because that would actually be trafficking in persons. That's the difference between an international introduction agency and a Mail Order Bride."

People traffic in people all the time, that's neither here nor there.

The question is, to what degree is the "international introduction" a simple commercial transaction, or do these people have the desire and opportunity to build a relationship before they make the big commitment?

I think you are a little bit naive about what's going on with the international match sites. I used to live in Cartagena... I SAW it.

Are you thinking about it? Have you done it?

My advice? DON'T. Colombianas are wonderful, and there are many ways to meet *quality* Colombianas, get to know them, and settle down with one mature enough to love you for all of you, not just your bank account and passport.

Wasteland

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LOCO HOMBRE says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:26:

I was talking about older colombian men not gringos como yo.

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Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:35:

Amigos.com A few months before my last trip to Colombia, I decided to give internet dating a shot so I enrolled in Amigos.com to get a few leads before I went. I sent out a bunch of lame one paragraph introductions (Hola, me llamo... soy Americano... blah, blah, blah), and I got a some responses and some phone numbers. When I got to Medellin, I called the first one on the list (Angie) and set up a date for later that afternoon. About a half a block from the Parque where we were supposed to meet, I bailed out. (Sorry Angie)

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with internet dating or mail-order brides, per se, but it just seems sort of contrived and unnatural... unromantic.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:49:

Wastelandlive, I'm going to assume the blame for miscommunication. You seem like a reasonable person. Surely you can see the difference between internet dating and trafficking in persons.

The worst male candidate and the most malicious female who hook up for marriage is still not the same as trafficking in persons.

He still has to petition for her. Part of the petition process involves her going on a scavenger hunt for various documents that she has to return to the embassy. In the end, she's standing in front of a consular officer who's asking her "Do you want to do this?"

Without her cooperation, nothing moves forward.

The term Mail Order Bride implies that the guy just picks a girl, sends off a check, and she shows up without any willful cooperation on her part. It doesn't happen that way and you're grossly misinformed if that's what you think.

If we went to Home Depot, the garden hose has no say in who takes it home. That's why I used the example.

The poor girl in a third world country might feel like Joe American is a ticket to whatever. He may have lied to her, misled her, or whatever. But still, until she gets off her behind and does some diligence, she can't go anywhere. SHE HAS WORK TO DO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. FURTHERMORE, JUST BECAUSE SHE RECEIVES A COMMUNIQUE FROM JOE AMERICAN, DOESN'T MAKE HER HIS PROPERTY.

That's the lie perpetuated about Mail Order Brides.

If you want to take pot shots at the process and say that the two individuals don't get to know each other to reasonable depth, that's one thing. That's a point that I think each individual has to decide for him/herself. We can't really say what's "enough" contact for someone else, we can only speak for our own individual relationships, so I won't even argue that point.

But an internet relationship is not the same as trafficking in persons.

Scrolling through a catalog looking at 100 pictures and a couple of one liners before deciding who you want to approach is more information than you have at a nightclub. I go into a club and I might see 4 or 5 "prospects". I gotta make up my mind who I'm going to try my luck with based on existential bullshit like how she carries herself, who she's with, and how approachable she is. But I know nothing about her until I start talking to her. I'm not much better off than picking her out of a catalog. Now when I approach her, based on what I say, how she receives me, maybe I have a chance with her. Done it a million times. But then it's not that different with an internet agency. I try to discern to the best of my ability, based on very limited information, who I want to approach. Then based on a host of different variables, maybe we start talking. I granted you that maybe the girl might have some incentives to talk to the foreign male because she perceives him to be "better" than he really is or a ticket to some kind of different lifestyle or whatever. But to say that ANY guy can snag ANY girl online is just bullshit. I know a lot of girls in Cartagena too, and it just doesn't work like that.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 13:15:

The ones who would never take their hands to a woman are just the ones fortunate enough not to have been involved with a lunatic. In the right situation ANY man would defend himself against a woman, including knocking her the ef out if need be.

I bet that hiker last year previously thought "I would never mutilate myself" until he found himself pinned down and had to hack his arm off with a dull blade to survive.

You never know till you're in the situation.

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 25, 2006, 13:35:

Out of context... I said: "The view seems to be that there are two types of men: those who HAVE comitted an act of domestic violence and those who WILL."

Obviously that's not the case however the D.V. laws and often public perception seem to take the view expressed above.

While the instinctive reaction in response to a physical assault is self-defense. Nowadays, it seems like the best thing you can do is run out of the house and call the police and stay as far away from your wife/girlfriend, etc. until the dust settles.

While this may (though there are no guarantees) keep you out of jail, it sure isn't going to help mend your relationship (or your ego as the 4-11, 80-lb raving lunatic woman is chasing the 6-ft 200-lb man down the street). But what else can you do?

At that point it's not her against you, it's the whole-city and state government against you.

And the guy who cut off his arm was an idiot.

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Cerealkiller says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:07:

Hmm in regards to the original post. I think most guys know when theyre being used, it isnt like theyre stupid, it doesnt even require "malicia indigena"...Girls need a green card and dollars and guys want someone to show off and who reassures them constantly, so all in all it is a win win situation. I dont think Colombian girls are all goldiggers or all gringos exploited victims. People KNOW when theyre really loved, and if they put up with sending money to the girl's family in exchange for deceit then thats their problem, its consensual abuse!!!
In regards to LDR's, I agree with Kat (yay Kat, you rock!!), its all about taking things seriously and trusting each other, I´ve been on an LDR for the past 3 years and I have absolutely no complaints, I trust him, he trusts me and there is no need for cheating (at least on this side), if one wants to have a fling then just dump your partner and go for it, as simple as that.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:25:

Well, the guy who cut off his arm was convinced he would die out there if he didn't. You may know more about the story than I do. What I was trying to say is that under different levels of stress and desperation your normal reasoning process doesn't function the same way. You can't say with any certainty what you would "never do". It just means you haven't been truly tested yet. And I'm not directing that to you personally Crazy4Cali, but rather to mankind as a whole. It's very naive for us to limit ourselves to what we can "see" ourselves doing.

Some people say they could never kill another person. That's a common one. I have seen the meekest, most humble, harmless looking guy kill when I was in the Army. We had this guy named Danny in our unit. So docile I remember we locked him in his own wall locker one day (I still feel bad about that). But then when we got deployed and he had that moment of clarity that people were trying to kill us, he was just as reliable as anyone else. And a damn accurate shot too, I might add.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:32:

Sorry cam, if we went off on another tangent, I think it has made for an interesting conversation, although one that would obviously be more heated were there more female viewpoints, lol.

As far as the foreign dating scene and why it is so difficult...

1) 90-95% of the men that correspond with women in Russiao the Ukraine never even go there, which causes disillusionment with keyboard Romeos who stupidly promise the world to someone they have never met

2) Flying 12 hours in one day is another obstacle, and the $600-1400 pricetag for flights to Russia

3) You have to leave the US and spend time with any woman in her country before you can bring her to the US on a K-1 visa

4) Phone bills can be crazy

5) Single Russian and Ukrainian women are NEVER granted a tourist visa to the US unless they are 45 plus...I have never heard of one in the last five years

6) You have to wait anywhere from 4-18 months before you can even bring your fiance-wife into the country

7) there are so many USCIS forms and documents...it ends up costing somewhere between $1,500-2,000 just for all this...and that is if you do it without a lawyer, on your own

8) There is a 9-15 hour time difference, which makes phone conversations much more difficult

9) You are going to spend a minimum of $5,000-10,000 just visiting her, hotels, vacations, flight for her to the US

Actually, one of the biggest problems is that it is easy to get a K-1 visa, which is like a trial period...because of the costs involved, many couples use this as a time to be together for only the 2nd or 3rd time instead of seriously preparing for marriage knowing that is what you want...I do not know the official rate, but I would imagine more than 60-70% of the women that come on K-1s never even get married...which leads to them returning to their country, having on-line relationships and getting money from 2-3 men at a time, because they get burned so many times they figure they have to continue their normal lives because things are never going to work out with an American or European.

One of the biggest problems with the K-1 is there are so many in the system holding up things for those who really want to be with someone or get married...I am talking guys that have 2-3 petitions simultaneously or have already gone through the process five plus times and still have not found the one they were looking for.

One of the big differences between here and Russia is that a majority of the really good women you would want to meet speak fluent English and have advanced level university educations. In many ways, women from this part of the world are very much similar to their American counterparts...hard-working, driven, material-oriented, MTV-raised, fashion and make-up conscious. The women from both Eastern Europe and here in Colombia wont step out of their house without looking dressed to kill. No gym shorts, it is only tight jeans and mini-skirts. Economically, there is almost no difference between the two countries...maybe a slight advantage to Russia over Colombia due to oil reserves and science-technology prowess.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:42:

Good post. I wouldn't dispute any of that.

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:56:

Cam... As I said, it's not really worth arguing about. Nor assuming blame for miscommunication. We're just chatting. But you've got me wrong:

C: "The term Mail Order Bride implies that the guy just picks a girl, sends off a check, and she shows up without any willful cooperation on her part. It doesn't happen that way and you're grossly misinformed if that's what you think."

That's not what I think. And I don't think that's what "mail order bride implies." That WOULD be grossly misinformed... of course they "willfully cooperate."

They seek the agencies out!

What I'm trying to suggest to you is that the courtship which you assume follows the introduction is pretty damn lame, however much you want to dress it up. That's where I feel like you're not being honest with yourself. I see your notes full of weasel phrase:

C: "there's more too it... SHE HAS WORK TO DO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN... We can't really say what's "enough" contact for someone else, we can only speak for our own individual relationships, so I won't even argue that point..."

Well Cam, let's say it's like art: we know it when we see it. There's more too it? Doesn't look like it to me. Half the time these couples don't even have a language in common. And I don't know exactly what "enough time" is either, but I'm sure that what most of these couples are going through simply isn't.

It'd be interesting if there were some follow up statistics, no? How many of these relationships had survived five years?

C: "But an internet relationship is not the same as trafficking in persons."

I didn't suggest it was. That seems like a straw man, and I'm not sure why the distinction makes you feel better.

C: "Scrolling through a catalog looking at 100 pictures and a couple of one liners before deciding who you want to approach is more information than you have at a nightclub."

If you say so. You're doing it, aren't you Cam?

Best of luck to you. I hope it works out. If it doesn't, don't shoot the messenger.

Wasteland

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 15:09:

No Wastelandlive I'm actually married, but I'm just saying.

Some courtships may be lame. OK. I buy that.

I've been to the embassy in Bogota and I saw with my own eyes the couples that were applying for K-1 visas on that particular day. Yes, there were some you looked at and just thought "Huh?" But there was one other couple there, a guy that worked for Delta in Atlanta and a Bogotana. They were a decent couple. I think my wife and I are a decent couple. I think Crazy4Cali and his wife are a decent couple. I think Utopiacowboy and his wife are a decent couple. I think wOw and his girl are a decent couple. Mario and his wife. There are several of us who at one stage or another maintained communication either electronically or telefonically. Whichever way you made initial contact with the girl I think is beside the point, it's what happens afterwards. The agencies are like a Jayo Felony hit "I can give it to you, but whatcha gonna do with it?"

The quality of your courtship, the development of the relationship, all of that can be above board. It doesn't have to be cheesy, lame, and superficial.

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 15:52:

Well, I'll buy all that too. But I certainly never meant to imply that couples maintaining contact electronically qualified as the mail order bride crowd.

???

I doubt you guys would own up to it... but I'd be interested to know how many of these couples you list met through one of those agencies. Having read those guys, I don't think that they fit the profile... but you never know. Perhaps it does work out every now and then.

It sounds like Caulfield has a little hard earned knowledge in the field... or maybe he was on a teaching gig in Russia?

Wasteland

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 25, 2006, 16:19:

You are absolutely right, Cam, when you say "The quality of your courtship, the development of the relationship, all of that can be above board. It doesn't have to be cheesy, lame, and superficial." It can be but then the same could be said of a "normal" relationship that begins in a club or bar. I've never figured out why meeting on the internet has a stigma attached to it that meeting half-drunk in some dive doesn't.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 25, 2006, 16:22:

I confess My wife and I met the old-fashioned way: Match.com.

Personally, I think you can have the same success or failure regardless of how you meet. If you don't know the warning signs you won't see them whether you're in person or not. If you do know the warning signs, you can find them regardless of the communication medium.

People hook up with nut-cases they meet in bars, the library, on-line, at school, etc. and that's when both people live in the same country. They are drawn together for the same reasons they would be drawn together had they met on-line and lived 5000 miles apart.

You find what you look for.

If you like the excitement of a psycho-bitch-from-hell, well there you go. If you like being with a rich, successful man, don't complain when you find out he's controlling and domineering (ummm, how do you think he got a head in the rat race, by being sweet and romantic?)

It goes both ways and is independent of location.

The biggest problem with internet/pen-pal relationships is that there's way too much room for your imagination to get away from you (if you let it). If you're predisposed to live in a fantasy, having internet romances are the perfect outlet. On the other hand if you're socially challenged (i.e. you're a single parent witn a full-time job, not necessarily awkward in the presence of other people) then the internet can get you "out there" while you're busy tending to your responsibilities.

It's like using a knife: you need to know which end to hold and which end to use or it's going to hurt.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 16:58:

Well actually Mario, as horrible as that is, it doesn't sound like she pushed you past your threshold, which is a testament to your self control. Some elements like blocking the door, taking your keys or your wallet w/ your license, intensify the situation and limit your choices.

Wastelandlive, I met Mrs. Cam through www.aforeignbride.com. Colombia was one of the target countries of our MI unit. I wanted to go to South America as a tourist and not work related. I did a Yahoo! search for travel to Colombia. Several of the results dealt with Colombian women. I followed the links. I called a buddy of mine and said "Look what I found". Together we searched the site. Now I had already decided that I was going, but then I'll be honest with you: I was 32, and I love women. I especially have it bad for that caramel skin and curly brown hair. In my life, I've been out with Black, Mexican, Fijan, Egyptian, Creole, Native American, Arab, just all kinds of "brown" women. I love them. So here we were scrolling through pages of these photos. If you read my other post, the one I wrote last week that might have offended some people, I really didn't take the situation too seriously. So he's on the phone at his house and I'm on the phone at my house, and we're both scrolling. I say "Fuck it, I'm gonna write one of these girls".

Meanwhile, Mrs. Cam had an 11 year relationship with this guy in the Colombian Army. They were supposed to get married. Shortly beforehand, it turned out that they guy had had another girl on the side who turned up pregnant and he married her instead. Mrs. Cam was devastated and humiliated in front of her family and the whole neighborhood. She was damn near suicidal. Her older sister took her to one of these "socials" to get her out of the house. Mrs. Cam claims she went to one or two, and was hit on by guys who were older than her father. One kept insisting that she come ride on his Harley Davidson with her. She said he was at least 65. She stopped going.

Almost two years passed before I ever saw her online. Actually I wrote to two, Mrs. Cam and one in Bucaramanga. When I went to Colombia, the plan was to see them both and see two different cities in Colombia. I wasn't planning for anything particularly serious to happen, but I did want to know a local. It always helps to know someone in the place you are going to. And let me tell you, the one in Bucaramanga was FINE, ooh child she was fine. But what ended up happening is that I didn't have time to go see her. I was having too much fun in Cartagena. At first with Mrs. Cam it was like I said, someone to know. As we'd walk the streets there, I swear every couple of minutes I'd see another hottie walking elsewhere. I could not stop looking. But it just kind of evolved with Mrs. Cam. She didn't push because she really wasn't looking for anyone. The sisters and the parents thought it was great she had met someone after the embarrassing fiasco with the ex boyfriend. They treated me great and I had a good time, except for a couple of instances with a lunch bill and then one night at La Candelaria and a little discrepancy over a bottle of Johnnie Walker Black.

Colombia was SO very different from my life in Los Angeles. It was like an oasis for me. I am so far away from work and the people who frustrate me. So I went back. And I went back again. And I went back again. Never made it to Bucaramanga. Every time I made new friends in Cartagena. No one has ever outright guessed that I was from the United States. I'm Black by the way. Therefore, they all assumed this Spanish speaking guy was from San Andres. That made it very easy to navigate the city and "fit in" to the extent that I could. Nobody ever guessed I learned Spanish stealing Latin American communications for the US Government, but that's another story. Anyway, that's my story. In April of last year, I proposed to Mrs. Cam tipsy at a party at the family house in front of everybody with a vallenato band playing in the background. She accepted and then I met her in Bogota for the interview in September.

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poco says on Jan 25, 2006, 17:01:

It can get worse Men don't have a chance in this country.

From what I've heard about Canada, from Canadians, those guys have it worse.

Married,, ha,, why ? I've never had any kids and don't feel like starting a family. This thought gives me shivers.

I prefer long term relationships,, on two occasions I've run background checks in the U.S. Why would I take a chance of wasting some length of time when for the sum of $250 I can find out exactly what the person has been doing for xxxx years and employed xxxxx, married, single, divorced, how many times, credit etc.

Plus,, it’s entertaining to see if the facts match up with the story.

Should a woman EVER hit, kick or in any way use physical abuse I’d never touch her,, no a phone call to the police, have her hauled to jail (pregnant or not), I’d press charges and follow it up in court.

Then you might have a fighting chance in a divorce settlement.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 17:09:

That's what I used to say poco, but often times they don't just hit you and stop, so you have a chance to pick up the phone or walk out the door. When I say "out of control" I really mean OUT OF CONTROL. You pick up the phone, she yanks it out of the wall. That's what I'm talking about. You make a move for the door, she jumps in front of it. Visit a battered male website or forum and maybe you'll start to understand what some of these fucking wackjobs are doing to their men. It's terrible. It's not PrimeTime television type stuff.

I got mine because she was fine which led to her getting pregnant. I made the mistake of marrying her because she was pregnant. I had no idea the type of issues she had. I took her to a counselor. In five minutes of talking about the situation the counselor knew she was a piece of work. As soon as the counselor started to try to help, my ex wife got up and left the room. Couldn't fathom that maybe any of what was going on was her fault. She never wanted to go back. But, as I said, it's my fault. I shouldn't have married her just because she was pregnant.

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poco says on Jan 25, 2006, 17:29:

I've toooo many friends that had similar problems ?? Trust me cam,, I understand,, but you’ve got to get it done. You have NO CHANCE otherwise,,

Story:
Guy gets married,, two years later his wife skips while he was out of town for a week, after selling everything in the house and with all the money she could get her hands on PLUS,,, get this, she embezzled funds from her employer,,, guess what,, she did this BEFORE,, plus,, she was drop dead gorgeous,, he commented,, WHAT WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO RUN A BACK GROUND CHECK ???

That was what gave me the idea,,, YEAH,, run a back ground check.

Case 2
Friend has girl friend move in,,, asks “what do I think”,, I said,,, if you can afford it WHO CARES,,,

Two years later she is gone,, but not before going out front and beating her head against a tree,, brused and bleeding she called the sheriff,,, luckily they knew them,,, plus she was acting nuts anyway. Yep,, he got lucky,, only cost him ,, what,, 20 + grand and two years,, (she never worked).

Why do you think I'm single and live in Colombia half the time,, way to hard to find a woman with NO KIDS,, decent job, decent personality, good looking,, ie: someone who can take care of themselves and only wants a guy who is fun to be with. Ha,,, difficult,, not impossible,, I think they are all married or dating.

Colombian Chickens are crowing about the new President of the U.S. who will assure that From each according to their ability to each according to their need.

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 18:20:

Hehehehehehe Well,

There it is Cam. I was wondering at the defensiveness...

But what to say? I can empathize. I love dark women too - I think East Indians are the hottest, but I'm right there with you on the entire ethnic thing.

And I'm certainly glad it worked out for you.

So it's been about 8 months? Best of luck to you Cam, no sarcasm intended. Obviously, you speak Spanish, and clearly love the girl. May you wake up next to her one day, wrinkled and slightly stooped, in a house full of beautiful, bilingual mulato grandchildren!

Cheers.

Wasteland

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cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 20:02:

You know, I shouldn't let words like "All", "Always", "Never" and "None" get to me, but something in your earlier posts came across as more absolute than life usually is. That's the source of the defensiveness. I don't think I fit the typical Gringo in Colombia mold, honestly. I, like caulfield, have been real with Mrs. Cam since Day 1 (well, I didn't tell her about Bucaramanga). You see, since I have a decent arrangement overall, there has never been a need to lie to women in Colombia or Los Angeles, for that matter. I just am who I am. My life is what it is. You don't like it? Someone else will. That's been my attitude. Sure there's always someone with a better arrangement and that's fine. But I'm no slouch that needs to be ashamed of what I've done with my life. Besides, I'm only 34, 32 when all this started. So I think I'm decent with tremendous potential. I haven't lied to impress a girl since the 12th grade. So, when I read some of the indictments against Gringos in Colombia, I feel compelled to raise my hand and say "well, it isn't ALWAYS like that". I could just as easily be dealing with some knucklehead here, but the way the chips fell I've ended up with Mrs. Cam. And I'm happy it worked out that way. And thanks for your best wishes.

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 25, 2006, 21:26:

I enjoyed hearing the story of how you met Mrs. Cam. It certainly has as much romance in it as any boy-meets-girl story.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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BrassAdonis says on Jan 25, 2006, 21:32:

Jayo felony reference we need more of those. He has some of my favorite songs ever. Holla at your boy Cam. Oh what happen with the little discrepancy over a bottle of Johnnie Walker Black?

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vegaschic says on Jan 26, 2006, 17:57:

Cam this one is for you you say the charges were dropped by the LA City Attorney, since when does the City Attorney prosecute domestic violence cases? It is always been the office of the DA through their deputies who decide whether to file charges or not, I should know I was a co-founder and Director of a shelter for battered women in Fremont (Alameda County) in Northern California, who accompanied women to the DA office and to the Police Department to obtain TRO's [Temporarily Restraining Orders.] Also, the DA will always prosecute if the victim doesn’t recant her testimony and you say your ex didn't. Your story has holes in it. I don't know if your story is true or made up, I only know that, in any case, you should have left your house and wait for things to cool down before going back, which is my advise to you now that you are married again, and things can get out of hands between you and your new spouse. Domestic Violence whether verbal or physical has no place in civil society. It's true that not every accusation of spousal abuse has merits, however, we must always err on the side of the accuser to prevent the horrendous stories I have witnessed, in particular where women of color and immigrants are concerned.
--La violencia Intrafamiliar Contra Niños y Mujeres es Problema de Todos!

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those that look on and do nothing.”

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those that look on and do nothing.”

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Pete E says on Jan 26, 2006, 18:30:

Older Colombianos,younger Colombianas My girls friends uncle is 67.His wife is 24.
Is it about money?Thats part of it,but I would call it about security.She is from a poor family,is fairly good looking,but not exceptional.If she didn't go for him her option might be a pretty ordinary Colombiano,meaning poor.
So she has a ggod life with a Colombiano with some money.Not rich but well above average.And she will probably never have to worry about security,how she is going to get by.He is a nice guy,good looking for his age,with it attitude.I think she worked in his business when they met.
She has an above average life.Her options before were probably a below average life.
The most extreeme case I heard,guy 84,girl 18.The guy who told me about them said they both seemed content with it.The other factor,Colombians live for today.If its better today than it was thats pretty good.
Its all about options.Women with few options might go for something like this.Better than what they had.

Pete

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cam0940 says on Jan 26, 2006, 19:20:

I knew some fucking cynic would show up sooner or later. That's why I prefaced the story by pointing out that I was there and you, vegaschic, were not. But since you’re inclined to play investigative journalist, take the text and run with it.

Date of Incident: October 15, 2001
File Number: H1WL00856
Incident Involving: P242/243E


To Whom It May Concern:

Please be advised that on December 11, 2001, a hearing was held from the Office of the City Attorney regarding allegations that Cam (sic) committed P242/243E, a misdemeanor.

The matter was resolved at this hearing and no criminal complaint was filed against Cam (sic).

Sincerely,

Adrienne Hatrick
Hearing Officer

Office Hours: 8:30 AM – 4:30 PM
Monday – Friday
310-202-3875

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cam0940 says on Jan 26, 2006, 19:23:

I also want to add that it is morally wrong for a woman to be the one out of control, yet women's activists like vegaschic want to put the onus on the man to leave the house until the out of control woman is ready to act civilized. Why should I be cruising around aimlessly in my car when she's the one out of control? We do it because the system sucks, but that doesn't make it right.

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cam0940 says on Jan 26, 2006, 19:45:

I also want to add, becaus I'm so pissed that you even wrote that message, that in my incident I clearly stated that there was no accuser, you idiot. The neighbor called because they heard a woman scream "Let me go!" Furthermore, the police don't err on the side of caution if the accuser is a male. I HAVE called, I HAVE walked into the Pacific Division of the LAPD to have photographs taken and ask those worthless turds to do something. So miss me with the DV education OK? Be a man in a DV case, then we can have an intelligent conversation.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 27, 2006, 04:37:

I am sure she is arguing that because women of color many times do not speak English as a first language (including Asian and Hispanic immigrants in this broad category), many times they do not have the confidence to appear in court...they tend, on average, to be poorer and less well protected by advocacy groups than the middle and upper class (I won´t go into Asians scoring higher than whites on the SAT)

Statistically, there is more domestic violence against the poor, people of color make up a disproportionate number of poor (not in sheer numbers, there will always be more whites on welfare or victims of DV)...there is not more DV because people are poor, it is simply because abuse is cyclical, and there are generations of violence in abuse in many poorer families, especially when the mothers and fathers are under 20 and neither have a high school diploma. Once again, not a rule but a generalization. Like racism, DV is very cyclical and is passed down from grandparents to parents to grandchildren.

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cam0940 says on Jan 27, 2006, 06:37:

That's well put, caulfield.

I later found out that my ex-wife, although her mother was not "of color", was an alcoholic and a heroin user. She never wanted to get married because that might "tie her down". Constant drama in the house with multiple boyfriends. She even shot some guy in the leg once. My ex-wife's uncle was schizophrenic and murdered some guy in Louisiana. Another aunt on a tirade hit her husband in the head with a brick and left him with a speech impediment. It's a crazy family. Because of the alcohol and heroin use, the mother died prematurely and my ex-wife ended up in foster care. So when you talk about cyclical behavior, I can buy that argument.

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caulfield2 says on Jan 27, 2006, 13:10:

As to a previous response, I have never regretted meeting someone from another country. The experience has made me a much better person, and I have learned an important lesson, that I was not as easy to live with (as a spoiled only child used to getting everything my way) as I thought...this was the first time I really lived with someone, at age 33 and never married.

As a bachelor, you can get in a routine or rut and you do not realize how your life looks (it seems normal to you!) until you see how it is perceived through the eyes of another person.

I probably spent $10,000-15,000 over the course of three years that I would not have had I been just dating someone normally, but the travel experiences alone are irreplaceable.

While we are currently separated, there is a very good chance she will come down here to Colombia and spend the summer learning Spanish, as she wants to be an interpreter (English, Spanish, Russian and Italian) and eventually get an MBA in International Business.

Since there is no way to e-mail her, I will include her website address so you get a better picture why a normal red-blooded American male might fall for someone from a foreign country, lol.

www.irina.s5.com

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 27, 2006, 13:54:

Geeze... I used to think that I had bad judgement with women. I still do. Then I met you guys. Caulfield... what were you thinking?

Wasteland

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caulfield2 says on Jan 27, 2006, 14:35:

Well, some guys would probably donate their right arm to live with her for three years, lol.

The only thing that made it okay is that we are-were both pretty decent people, so we emerged unscathed...I am certainly not bitter. My only mistake was looking past the warning signs and falling in love so quickly. Maybe it was ego...thinking that I DESERVED someone like her because I was a high school teacher working in the inner city, an AmeriCorps volunteer, a non-profit program director for five years....university for nine years, etc. The kind of traits that American women usually admire, but it is hard to find someone SATISFIED with a middle class lifestyle that looks like a model and is even smarter than she is beautiful. You are not going to find any women that speak four languages, have had over 40 university-level history classes...unless you just stumble blindly into it.

It was sort of like I had found and could have the perfect person (well, she does not really like sports) and still be a teacher instead of a stock broker, lawyer, doctor, dentist, accountant, etc.

Not only that, but we both loved Labs and were only children. We actually have-had quite a bit in common...

Of course, living in Colombia, I can DATE and probably marry women just as attractive, if not moreso, but that does not necessarily mean they love me as much as I think. However, if you live with someone and date them for a couple of years, it is much easier to see the warning signs.

The girl I am dating down here has 3 jobs (four if you count dance classes), a motorcycle, a university degree....makes around $2 million per month, which is great for a 22 year-old. And she speaks pretty good English.

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 27, 2006, 14:43:

Roger that! C: "Maybe it was ego...thinking that I DESERVED someone like her because I was a high school teacher working in the inner city, an AmeriCorps volunteer, a non-profit program director for five years....university for nine years, etc. The kind of traits that American women usually admire, but it is hard to find someone SATISFIED with a middle class lifestyle that looks like a model and is even smarter than she is beautiful."
_____________________________

Wow... now transfer that interesting assumption that high school teachers deserve the top shelf babes to Russia, IMHO the absolutely most materialistic, darwinistic, nice guys finish last culture in the world, and just throw yourself on the rocks of the hottest babe you can find looking for a green card.

Caulfield, you read like a really nice guy. So nice it kills me.

Where are you? CTG?

Wasteland

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vegaschic says on Jan 27, 2006, 15:32:

Cam and GringoD Your male bonding is so touching! Cam if you didn’t want a response to your spousal abuse post you should have remain silent—”En boca cerrada no entran moscas”.
--Domestic violence charges are very serious matters. In fact, the California Legislature has proclaimed that domestic violence is such a serious and increasing problem that it must be addressed with tough prosecution. They have decreed in law that " spousal abusers present a clear and present danger to the mental and physical well-being of the citizens of the State of California." In order to deal with this situation, the legislature has passed a series of harsh criminal laws. The following current criminal statutes are illustrative:
CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE §273.5. (a) Any person who willfully inflicts upon a person who is his or her spouse, former spouse, cohabitant, former cohabitant, or the mother or father of his or her child, corporal injury resulting in a traumatic condition, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years, or in a county jail for not more than one year, or by a fine of up to six thousand dollars ($6,000.00) or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(c) As used in this section, "traumatic condition" means a condition of the body, such as a wound or external or internal injury, whether of a minor or serious nature, caused by a physical force. (This is the generally-charged "spousal-abuse violation")

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE §422. Any person who willfully threatens to commit a crime which will result in death or great bodily injury to another person, with the specific intent that the statement, made verbally, in writing, or by means of an electronic communication device, is to be taken as a threat, even if there is no intent of actually carrying it out, which, on its face and under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate family's safety, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison. For the purposes of this section, "immediate family" means any spouse, whether by marriage or not, parent, child, any person related by consanguinity or affinity within the second degree, or any other person who regularly resides in the household, or who, within the prior six months, regularly resided in the household. "Electronic communication device" includes, but is not limited to, telephones, cellular telephones, computers, video recorders, fax machines, or pagers. "Electronic communication" has the same meaning as the term defined in Subsection 12 of Section 2510 of Title 18 of the United States Code. (This is what California law refers to as "terrorist threats")

Clearly, this attitude, which now extends throughout the system, places the individual accused of Domestic Violence in a very difficult position. In the Golden State, the "abuse" does not need to happen in the "home" to be domestic violence. It can happen anywhere. Threats (which are not more than verbal abuse) can be made over the phone, by mail, on the internet, etc. There need not be any broken bones, wounds, cuts, bruises or other physical evidence of abuse in order to be arrested and charged with domestic violence. Verbal, emotional and psychological abuse can be treated just as seriously as actual physical violence. So my advise to you or any other male who finds himself in a domestic situation where it can develop into a possible shouting or physical altercation is to leave the scene before you find yourself in a heap of trouble.

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those that look on and do nothing.”

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those that look on and do nothing.”

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cam0940 says on Jan 27, 2006, 16:23:

Vegaschic, I'm confused about your post. No one ever said that DV wasn't serious, it IS serious. What we're saying is that contrary to conventional thinking, women are the perpetrators FAR more often than they get credit for. Because it is an uneven system, women often manipulate the system, make false claims, or think that they can "express themselves" (through hitting, throwing things and talking crazy) with impunity. That's the problem. I said it clearly, Mario said it clearly, and GDL said it for the third time clearly. So why would you respond by cutting and pasting parts of the Penal Code? Are you trying to paint men as abusers? Are you busily reading statistics that are grossly misrepresentative of what's going on? I said it before and I'll say it again, fewer than 10% of abused men ever call the police on their wives. Why? Because most of us believe in an old fashioned characteristic called chivalry. The same reason you don't hit her in the jaw as hard as you can is the same reason you don't call the police on her. But that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean that she hasn't committed domestic violence. So... her behavior only in the most rare of instances ever shows in the statistics. Which makes it a farce for law enforcement or shelter workers to spew bullshit statistics based on police reports that are actually filed. Get it? It's bullshit.

The other significant point, which you failed to answer, is why I, after working 11 hours and being exhausted, should be the one to have to leave the house with no where to go when SHE's the one out of control? What if it's cold? What if it's raining? I have to roam the streets like a jerk when I'm the victim? Waiting for her to calm down? So she sits inside warm and fuzzy and I'm out wandering around for a few hours because she can't stop throwing things? What kind of sense does that make? What's really going on is, as I said earlier, no matter how crazy she acts, the man is still expected to be a gentleman and concede the house to her. The man is expected to be the one in control (a concession that she's the emotionally weaker vessel, because we don't expect her to control herself and calm down before things get out of hand). Yet, when you say "You should leave the house" the implication is that I'm in control enough to do so. If I'm the one in control, I'm not the abuser, now am I? I'm the victim. So why does the victim have to run? When are women going to be held responsible for acting like maniacs? Until women are held responsible for their behavior, they won't stop. Why would they? If you can act any way you want to and the law doesn't punish you and the only advice DV workers ever offer is "the guy should leave" what in the world would cause the woman to correct her behavior? There is no incentive to, and so she goes on and on till someone gets hurt or the man snaps and clocks her. Then you show up on the scene calling the man an abuser. It's bullshit.

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aaronfromus says on Jan 27, 2006, 17:22:

This is one more example ... This is one more example of how men protect women. The legislature of California, moved by the complaints of women, enacted a draconian statute and declared domestic violence to be such a serious problem that it must be addressed with tough prosecution. However, whether it is, or is not, a serious problem in reality is not based on what a Legislature says.

Legislatures every day re-evaluate previous laws as to whether or not they should remain on the books. It is only a matter of time before aggrieved men counter womens groups by petitioning the government themselves. It is a sad thing that many men sit on their hands when they are treated unjustly. But, when men decide finally to be heard, we may then get a more balanced view of "domestic violence." Until then, men, cower when your woman attacks you. Not because of her, but because of the other men in government and law enforcement who have decided to, not only usurp your authority in your own home, but have further subjected you to the emotional whims of your womens hormonal changes. Suerte

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vegaschic says on Jan 27, 2006, 17:45:

The Law is the Law as long as the law is the way it is you need to leave, no buts. Yes, I do believe that men are also abused by their significant others, however, men have more choices than women in terms of where to go when they are abused. I'm not making excuses for women who battered their men, but in your situation you made matters worst by staying and when does it stop? the saying goes that it takes 2 to tango, perhaps, but also it takes 1 to stop dancing. I assumed that you are now cured of confrontational situations, I will be if I had your experience, I'll get the hell out before I'm accused of domestic violence, especially if I was in cali, since unless the arrest was sponged, it may be around somewhere.

aaronfromus You say "men, cower when your woman attacks you. Not because of her, but because of the other men in government and law enforcement who have decided to, not only usurp your authority in your own home, but have further subjected you to the emotional whims of your womens hormonal changes" See this is the mentality of many men and as long as this continue nothing will ever change and we will have to be enforcing the laws in the books.
Good luck guys!

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those that look on and do nothing.”

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those that look on and do nothing.”

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Crazy4Cali says on Jan 27, 2006, 17:54:

Yeah... Stay the heck out of California...

"So my advise to you or any other male who finds himself in a domestic situation where it can develop into a possible shouting or physical altercation is to leave the scene before you find yourself in a heap of trouble." Why is this advice directed only a men? Shouldn't this apply to both sexes? Of course not, becuase the women aren't going to be prosecuted under this law. Only the men as long as people like Vegaschic have their way.

Vegaschic said: "I'm not making excuses for women who battered their men, but in your situation you made matters worst by staying and when does it stop?" Does she say this to women in abusive relationships as well? I realize that women often are at physical and financial disadvantage, but if you want to throw the "law" around, do it equally. The way to level the playing field isn't to castrate and intimidate the men, but to empower the women.

I love it when women refer women as "women" but men as "males" Can you say "objectification?" (First rule of war is to dehumanize your enemy). We have "cute male bonding" while women have "support groups."
This is the sort of approach that reduces the credibility of the "agenda." If the goal was to reduce violence it would be gender-blind. Vegaschic's attitude is just male bashing hiding behind good deeds.

Reading the statutes, there is no apparent gender bias, however, the enforcement is what seems to be skewed. So what would you change about: "Any person who willfully inflicts upon a person who is his or her spouse, former spouse, cohabitant, former cohabitant, or the mother or father of his or her child, corporal injury resulting in a traumatic condition, is guilty of a felony?" There's no gener bias there. But is that how the law is enforced?

It's so easy to end up in a "Catch 22" Based on Cam's story, he had two choices, bad and worse. He could have sent his pregnant wife to jail (bad) or himself to jail (worse). Could Cam have gone to the "battered spouse" shelter (oops, sorry, this shelter is for "battered WOMEN" go find your own shelter).

WRT: "Threats (which are not more than verbal abuse)..."
This reminds me of when my ex-wife claimed abuse when I threatened to put her on a budget.

Whatever happened to "equal protection under the law?"

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aaronfromus says on Jan 27, 2006, 18:20:

Typical feminist response ... Vegachic makes the false assumption, that male authority in a household means abuse in a household. This assumption is based more on the classic feminist dogma that women are victimized by men, and therefore cannot be trusted with authority, than on any hard facts. This has been called the "Frontman Fallacy" by some. The Frontman Fallacy being, that when men are "in charge," they inevitably work to benefit men to the detriment of women. While this dynamic would likely apply to most feminist women "in charge," many of whom propogate statutes favoring women at the expense of men, when men are "in charge," they do a number of other things such as... create laws against wife beating (yes, even in colonial times before women could own property), force other men to pay alimony when their ex-wives were completely dependent on them for income, create an Amendment to the US Constitution allowing women to vote, make laws allowing women into the workforce and countless other things. Feminist assumptions are tired, and much to the chagrin of Vegachic and feminists like her, it is only a matter of time before men decide to stop patronizing women that say such things. In that day, there will be far fewer statutes, as those pasted above, based on the inane ideology of feminism.

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Wastelandlive says on Jan 27, 2006, 19:39:

Well, this thread has gone to shit. Unreason rules. Sometimes I fear for Western civilisation. Last ones out, turn off the lights and shut the door.

Wasteland

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caulfield2 says on Jan 28, 2006, 06:30:

My ex is not materialistic, except when it comes to make-up, because cheap make up can destroy your face and age it prematurely. Only Lancome and Clinique, lol.

In all seriousness, my ex works a lot harder than I do. She has two waitressing jobs (50 hours per week) and goes to school full-time in her second language. Have you ever tried studying psychology, sociology and philosophy in Spanish? She has a 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse, but she has made every single payment herself. With the exception of car insurance and health insurance, that was all I really paid for...with the exception of vacations. And believe me, it´s not the usual thing for a girl in Colombia to pay for anything when she is dating you. The ones that I´ve stayed with have been the ones who worked and were considerate enough to pay for 25% of things, enough to make them feel they weren´t freeloading.

If it was up to her, she would not even want to become a US citizen, because she loves Russia more. That is probably true for almost all of the ¨good¨ girls here, they would prefer to remain in Colombia if it was an economically viable decision.

It is very simple, really. Just ask any girl you meet down here if she would be willing to live with you, for, say, five years before possibly moving to the US. If they only want the visa-marriage-passport stamp, you will find out soon enough.

I live in Armenia. I would never think about living in Cartagena, even if my g-f or novia looked better than the prepagos at La Dolce Vita...too hot and sticky. Great to visit, but I really like the climate down here and in Cali or Medellin.

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dangel says on Jan 28, 2006, 20:16:

My Columbian born wife is very sweet adn caring. The only problem is how fat she has grown in the 6 years since we married and moved to the US. http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL95/2105949/4090267/50699522.jpg

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utopiacowboy says on Jan 28, 2006, 23:55:

Congratulations, Dangel. Now you've got a normal American woman. I'm glad that my wife is still pure Colombiana at 5'5" and 115 pounds.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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cam0940 says on Jan 29, 2006, 08:48:

I find it absolutely amazing that you would write that rocinate, after we just had an in depth discussion on Mail Order Brides. Either you have no idea what you're talking about and are blissfully ignorant, or you didn't read the thread.

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cam0940 says on Jan 29, 2006, 11:47:

Well, I apologize for snapping at you. I didn't take it as a personal attack, I'm secure in my situation. But the whole "off the shelf" thing had just been covered and I sincerely, objectively, don't understand that angle when that's not really how it works. Hope you had a good time, see you around.

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