American Men w/ Wives or Girlfriends in Colombia

elmodefoque says on Jan 24, 2006, 07:15:

Guys, is very easy to tell if a broad is into you. If you get there and she comes out talking about being busy or she’s not that kind of girl, wait until we’re married and in the USA, dump here!!!
If she’s waiting for you at the airport and immediately takes you to the nearest motel and jumps all over your bones and you don’t see daylight for the next 3 days and only come out because you insist in getting something to eat, then that’s your girl. Send that broad money, but don’t leave her alone for too long, she sounds like a nymphomaniac.
I nailed my wife the first day we met in Cartagena, next day we took off to San Andres for 4 days, stayed 7, that was almost 8 years ago.
I'm old enough to be her granpaw

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 07:47:

two very wise posts... from one who knows.......all.

you don't need to know more...
she can be a queen...
but you must be king.

and the oldgringo is old enough to be elmo's dad.

we got a new somamabeach...
some plagiarist.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 08:39:

Long distant relationships takes harder work, respect, trust, commitment, maturity and PATIENT from both part. and an expensive telephone bill :)


otherwise "amor de lejos felices los cuatro"

engage brain before opening mouth

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 09:00:

bravo,..kat. another savvy dicho de la reina.

lucky thing la commandante is the mature one around here.

it's not fair!!!
the oldgringo spent thousands on the phone...
now,...it's free!!!

lucky thing it was worth it!

Crazy4Cali says on Jan 24, 2006, 09:07:

Not any more... Thanks to VOIP, Skype, Vonage, etc. you can at least reduce the phone bill component of the long-distance relationship.

None of the rest has changed, however.

The biggest problem I've seen with LDRs is that the distance and reduced communications makes it possible for someone to imagine what they wish to be in the relationship. Many things that would be inexcusable in a "local" relationship are shrugged off, or given the benefit of the doubt in a LDR. This is exactly what the gasolineras as well as the gringos who are all talk and no action, take advantage of.

In reality, you need to be more perceptive and curious as Cam describes above. If all is on the up-and-up, then there's no problem. If not, well, move on. It is sad to do, but what are your chioces. You sure aren't in any position to change their behavior.

At the same time, I don't think you need do set up "tests" for the person. Just listen...If they are telling a consistent story things are probably OK. If the story starts to change or changes on a daily basis, then you got a handful.

Those who make a living off of coming up with crises and tragedies that all need money to resolve are either a) very good at coming up with stories or b) have such a messed up life, you probably don't want to get too close to it.

But for however good intentioned Cam's, Elmo's, etc. advice is, sadly, it usually falls on deaf ears. Those who need it won't listen and those who listen don't need it.

I'm convinced you find what you look for. If you're looking for a "crisis" to save, there are plenty of them out there. If you're looking for "fast and loose," you can find that, too (if they don't find you first). At the same token, if you're looking for honest and sincere, they can be found, as well.

A lot of the people Cam is addressing remind me of myself in a younger day. They don't have the self-esteem to feel they deserve a good, honest partner and derive their self-image from the percevied difference in status between the "rich" gringo rescuing/saving/impressing the "poor" colombinana. It's hard to watch someone else go through that, knowing what rapids lie ahead for them down river, which, I suppose, is what motivated Cam's post, but some people only know how to learn the hard way.

You can't save everyone.

miamimike says on Jan 24, 2006, 09:20:

Good post Cam and a Good reason not to send Money.... To Chicas in Col

"Those who make a living off of coming up with crises and tragedies that all need money to resolve are either a) very good at coming up with stories or b) have such a messed up life, you probably don't want to get too close to it.

But for however good intentioned Cam's, Elmo's, etc. advice is, sadly, it usually falls on deaf ears. Those who need it won't listen and those who listen don't need it".

Sage advice Cam and re-inforces why I think its foolish to send money if you, the sender, is not there to send how the recipient is dispursing it(on what, with who, how, why)...Use yer head for something else then hanging yer Hat on LOL

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

elmodefoque says on Jan 24, 2006, 09:38:

My advice come from experienc My advice comes from experience. Before I met my wife I was going to Colombia just to get drunk and jump on hookers and occasional burritas, I never wanted to marry anyone or fall in love or any of that crap. On one of those trips I met this very white middle class barranquillera, I was surprised that she would even look at my Indian ass, we talked and I figure, hey! this broad is only checking me out because I live in USA, but I was ok with that as long as she gives me a little action. A besito here a besito there, but nothing. WTF, if she thinks I’m gonna bring her white ass to USA and not even get a taste of what I’m buying she don’t know me too good. I got her drunk enough to knock out a mule, but nothing, shit! this broad is really repulsed by my mere presence, her desire to come to USA was no match for her deep middle class upbringing; you don’t screw no freaking Indian and if you don’t believe me ask any of the colombianas here. I was so horny for her I would had been happy just sticking my finger up her ass, after all this was the first Colombian broad that I did not have to pay. Needless to say she gave me nothing and lost out, she could had been living in the lap of luxury in my tiny 5th floor walk up apt. in uptown Manhattan among all my lovely Dominican neighbors and dancing bachata by now.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:20:

You have to understand, littl You have to understand, little girls have fewer chores than boys.

Not in Colombia, they don't. Especially the lower the strata, the less true this is.

You will easily find young Colombian girls picking up after their brothers, helping mom with the cooking and baby sitting the little ones. This is especially true the lower the strata. Not unusual to find 9 year old strata 1-3 Colombian girls who sweep the house, cook dinner and care for their little brothers while mom is out working.

Colombia is still a machista culture where house chores = things women do.

The only exception to this are strata 5 or 6 girls who probably don't need a foreigner to rescue them anyway.

You guys are making assumptions about Colombian family dynamics based on limited second hand experience. I grew up in a Colombian family, so did Kat. Trust me, boys DON'T generally do chores.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:30:

I think the wealthy girls are the one being treaty like a princess, boys usually don't do nothing at home, as far as I remember my brothers hardly move a finger to do something at home, it was women job.

engage brain before opening mouth

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:32:

yep..it's true... la commandante still picks up after her corroncho brothers,
and,,colombiche,..she can find anyone in cartagena... today.
..if you still are looking.

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:35:

Oldgringo I couldn't possibly be looking for a colombian lady, because I happen to be one myself ;)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

elmodefoque says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:37:

ladies, i don't know from wealthy colombians but i started working as soon as i hit 5 and became barranquilla's best butifarra salesman by 10.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:41:

a lot of girls help out the family too a lot of girls 5 or 6 yrs old, are out working to help the family. I have aunts who dropped out of school at 9 or 10 to help out their parents.

Ever watch "La Vendedora de Rosas"?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

elmodefoque says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:43:

ever watch "el vendededoro de butifarras"?

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:44:

Yeah Many many times I watched "El vendedor de empanadas", "El vendedor de pitadoras", "El vendedor de sombrillas"..... More times than I can handle to watch.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:44:

Uhmmmmm Elmo a bussiness man, what was the name of the bussiness Butifarra's inn ;)
On the serious note, It is ok for a man to work out of the house, but not to do nothing at home, home-work is just for the women. according to many families in Colombia

engage brain before opening mouth

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:47:

Yes Boys can do anything outside the house, girls can do both outside and inside the house. This is how it generally works.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:48:

I agree Colombiche

engage brain before opening mouth

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:48:

Butiburras Le ponemos la burra pa la farra!

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:49:

Kat I think you and I are on the same wavelength today, we are typing the same things at the same time.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:50:

I had to change the one before because you typed faster than me lol

engage brain before opening mouth

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 10:54:

miamimike Wrote "but for however good intentioned Cam's, Elmo's, etc. advice is, sadly, it usually falls on deaf ears. Those who need it won't listen and those who listen don't need it". That it so true. I hope I am wrong, I gave advice to someone if he listen fine, if not good luck. but usually if is not what they want to hear then it's not good advice.

engage brain before opening mouth

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:02:

sorry colombiche.. thought you were looking for cartagena listings,,,
i know your a girl....duh....
can ou believe we have a donald trump wannabe for PM.
thats why the oldgringo don't vote....politics is hopeless.
can you imagine?...30% of vancouver voted FOR svend robinson?
better spend your time on nookie, or money, or spiritual meditation.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:24:

They certainly do not need my seal of approval but Colombiche and Kat are absolutely right. My two stepsons hardly do a damm thing around the house but my stepdaughter helps her mother all the time. The situation is even worse (if that's possible) with the older generation of my wife's siblings. The guys are absolute freeloaders and the women are all hard workers, in and out of the house.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:29:

hey cowboy... wasn't it greenday who you stole the disclaimer from?

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:45:

I'm basically with kat and colombiche on this one. The trend may be changing, slowly, but surely. Last time in Cali I was a little surprised to see many boys doing chores at my friends' homes and their moms were saying that hey we're not living in middle ages any longer.

Traditionally girls have always had a greater share of chores in a Colombian home than boys. Just as women have been in charge most of the housework. It's only the families that still have a live-in maid (many middle class families only have hired cleaning or washing help two to three days a week) where the children of the family (boys and girls) don't have to pitch in.

I had a visit of an elderly aunt who went back to Colombia telling horror stories of my family, especially me making my son to do dishes according to a schedule:)

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 11:56:

Didn't you ever hear the Colombian saying "Hombre en la cocina, huele a rila de gallina?"

That says it all.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

poco says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:06:

Blood Alcohol Content may be responsible At least temporarily

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:11:

my very dear departed mother-in-law put it even more delicately: "Un hombre en la cocina huele a mierda de gallina". She'd turn over in her grave if she knew that her grandson is doing all the cooking and other chores as he is living by himself.

Cheers,
Desi
Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

cam0940 says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:13:

You guys, I was very serious when I wrote that post and you all have jumped on the one clause that talks about who does more chores: boys or girls. Actually that paragraph was talking about household dynamics in general, and I had to lump American households with Colombian households because it was already long as it is. There was no time to write a thesis on Colombian households and frankly, I'm not qualified anyway.

The point was, in Colombia and America, the girls are the princesses and the boys are well... the boys. Every parent among you I'm sure is more delicate verbally and physically with their girls than they are their boys.

Before anyone runs off on a tangent with that statement, I'm talking girls relative to boys. We generally say that women are more sensitive than men. I don't necessarily know how much of that is hormonal vs social. I think boys in Western culture, hell all over the world, are just socialized to suck it up more than girls are. Because no one wants to see their darling princess cry.

strata2woman says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:14:

hello boys and girls it amazes me how silly some of the posts are, colombiche you seem to have a problem with us “low strata class� humans, first you referred to Mexicans and Salvadorians in one of your former posts as “greasy� and now you seem to know so much about us low strata colombian women that I wondered if you are no one of us.

Corroncha and proud of it! To yourself be true.

- "con sombrero vueltiao y abarcas de tres puntá"

elmodefoque says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:28:

damn, i aways wanted to date one of those wealthy girls from strara 2

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

elmodefoque says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:42:

Modefoque, what estrato were you? The way I figure, when we moved to Barranquilla from La Guajira, we went up the social ladder cuz we moved to a estrato 1 neighborhood, so we must have been estrato -2.
hate to leave but I gotta go home!

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:46:

the oldgringo.. got the best of estrato 2..
now she supports me too.

Colombiche says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:47:

GIB ehrr, I mean STRATA2, you must be referring Strata, you must be referring to this post of mine from the past:

"When I used to go Spanish clubbing was when some greasy Mexican or Salvadoran
guy with Jerry curls and a little mustache asked me to dance..."

As you can see, I was referring to a specific incident with a specific type of person at a nightclub, I wasn't referring to every person from those two countries.

And as far as estratos go, I brought them into the equation here because the higher up the estrato ladder you go, the more disposable income you have, the more likely you are to have hired help, the less likely you are to ask your kids to do chores..

Yo no tengo el mas minimo problema con la gente de ningun estrato, seria ridiculo tener problemas con alguien basado en un estrato que el gobierno ha designado para medir a la gente, no crees?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

poco says on Jan 24, 2006, 12:50:

Education and a work ethic is important The boy at my house has chores, lots, he didn’t do squat (he did sweep the floor once a week) before I showed up. He ALWAYS washes the dishes,, unless he goes to school in the morning. Ha,, he doesn’t wash his breakfast dishes,, but he sure as hell makes his own breakfast !!! He always washes his own clothes, puts them on the line and returns them to his room. Before she didn’t have a washing machine,, now we do,, now the kid is getting “mechanical aptitude�.

Unbelievable,, after over a year, one day at the dinner table he said boys (men ?) don’t do dishes. Why,, because he might become gay, and gay domestics make LESS than female domestics,, which must be similar to working for free.

His mother verified this was the general thinking,, food and dishes is womans work and sure enough he might become gay,,

This was shocking,, what course of action is correct ? He still does dishes and washes clothes but I brought him a jar of KY Jelly, some condoms along with a spanish medical book showing him potential pitfalls.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

oldbongo says on Jan 24, 2006, 13:07:

hey,..thats MY problem area... why did you have to go share that with them?

while the oldgringo goes along with ladies in the kitchen,
they are there mostly for decoration and cleaning.
...in the oldgringos' castillo.

this discussion does shed some light on the cultural
evolution though....no offence, but, sorry,
no matter how you slice it or dice it, the ladies can't cook worth a damm......the saying is.."you spice like a girl"

except in thailand.

LOCO HOMBRE says on Jan 24, 2006, 15:29:

a question I hear a lot about men colombian men 50,60 years of age or older with 17 or 18 year old girls in colombia.Why is that found so much more in colombia than u.s.....is it just for money....I don't think so but what do I know?I mean I am 33 and have friends 20 -23 in colombia and they all have new born half brothers or sisters by there fathers 18 year old wife.....any input..
I agree with cam ....if she is'nt grateful or you have any doubt ...leave her alone and don't sent a cent..

Wastelandlive says on Jan 24, 2006, 18:47:

No Loco... It's got nothing to do with money at all. Why would you even suspect such a thing?

Colombianas just find balding pudgy men with declining libidos completely irresistable. They especially like men who can't speak Spanish - it avoids lots of uncomfortable intimate conversations.

But money? Na. All Colombianas are pure as the driven snow, looking for love, whatever the cost.

Shoot, half those guys are broke. Haven't you noticed all the old gringos selling chicklets and used magazines under the clock tower?

Wasteland

utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2006, 21:41:

Yeah, Oldgringo, I did steal it from him.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

utopiacowboy says on Jan 24, 2006, 21:42:

I don't know where you get the idea that the girls are treated as little princesses. My wife reams out her daughter as hard or harder than her two sons. She doesn't think twice about slapping her either.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

cam0940 says on Jan 24, 2006, 22:02:

I can't believe you disagreed with that. When was the last time any little boy was dressed up in a pink lace dress with shiny shoes and stockings, meticulous care taken with his hair including bows and curls, earrings, and paraded down to the photo studio? Boys treatment, in comparison, is very plain vanilla. If for no other reason because Dads don't want their sons growing up to be pansies.

Crazy4Cali says on Jan 24, 2006, 22:34:

You won't find that in my house Our Princesa Colombiana wouldn't be caught dead in a pink lace anything. We were in the store, the other day, and I suggested a cute dress....I got the evil eye for the rest of the day for that idea.

I think this is a case of "Your mileage may vary."

COLDK says on Jan 25, 2006, 01:01:

"You have to be investigative..."

This should also apply for those colombian women that are looking for a serious relationship with a nice man and they end in a new country with who knows what kind of maniatic... Long distance relationships are a risk for both parties.

aaronfromus says on Jan 25, 2006, 01:02:

good observations cam0940 Cam, regardless of the endless exceptions that people seem to be groping for, you've made some good observations.

I agree with Colombiche that chores around the house are something women are more likely to do the lower the strata. But using a word like "machista," to imply that women (and not men) being reponsible for chores is somehow a bad thing or that women are somehow victims of men because they cook food and wash dishes, give me a break. I wish more women in the US not only didn't complain about washing the dishes, but knew how to cook more than from a can or a box. Feminist arguments are soooo tired, lets get off that horse.

elmodefoque says on Jan 25, 2006, 04:35:

"It's got nothing to do with money at all. Why would you even suspect such a thing?

Colombianas just find balding pudgy men with declining libidos completely irresistable. They especially like men who can't speak Spanish - it avoids lots of uncomfortable intimate conversations.

But money? Na. All Colombianas are pure as the driven snow, looking for love, whatever the cost.

Shoot, half those guys are broke. Haven't you noticed all the old gringos selling chicklets and used magazines under the clock tower?"
wasteland

wasteland, you hit it right on the head, colombianas can't stand guys with money.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 05:32:

There has been a big fight in Congress over this issue of providing background checks on American men that foreign women are considering for marriage. I think this is a good step, because there are plenty of men who are abusive and have a long track record of horrible relationships that would scare off most ¨good¨ and genuine women in a heartbeat. Many many control their women econonically, don´t let them leave the house, are extremely jealous, obsessive and possessive.

Of course, that leads to the obvious corollary...why don´t web-based dating sites like match.com or e-harmony have the same background checks on people who sign up for their sites? Why would a stranger in the US be any ¨better¨ than a stranger in another country? Can websites be held responsible for the actions of a maniac who meets a woman throught their service, or are they simply a ¨meeting¨ facilitator and not responsible for the eventual results, good or bad?

caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 06:41:

http://www.protectionproject.org/eo1.htm

Physical Abuse: Ngan, a twenty-one year old Filipina came to the United States having married a U.S. citizen through an international matchmaking organzation. She endured repeated physical assaults at the hands of her husband who had decided that he had not receive the picture bride that he had ordered. Frightened in the beginning, Ngan did not report what had happened to her. As the violence increased, Ngan’s neighbors rescued her, and from the hospital she was placed in a shelter for battered Asian women.xiv

Physical Abuse, Forced Motherhood and Threats of Deportation: In a story of forced motherhood, Raco, a twenty-four year old Filipina, married a US citizen, who had corresponded with her romantically for ten years. Soon after her marriage, Raco began to be severely beaten by her husband. Because she did not want to bear children immediately, the assaults against her became more severe. When Raco did become pregnant, she was threatened by her husband who said that he would not sponsor her permanent residence if she did not carry the child to term. She finally fled to a shelter, after the beatings continued to intensify even when she decided to keep the child.xv

Physical Abuse, Threats of Deportation, Restriction of Movement and Murder: In the most famous mail order bride abuse case, Anastasia King from Kyrgyzstan married Ingle King, Jr., who strangled her to death in September 2000. It has been reported that in her diaries, Anastasia wrote that he she was sexually and physically assaulted by King, that he withheld her college tuition, restricted her freedom of movement, and threatened her with deportation and death.xvi

Physical Abuse and Murder: Alla Barney, a twenty-six year old Ukrainian mail order bride was stabbed to death by her husband, Lester S. “Stuart� Barney, 58, after she had obtained a restraining order against him and temporary custody of their son on allegations of abuse. Alla had met Barney through an online mail order bride service.xvii

Physical Abuse and Murder: After a year long courtship, Susana Remerata, a Filipina, married Timothy Blackwell, who had found her on the Asian Encounters website. After their wedding in the Philippines, Blackwell became abusive and attempted to choke Susana on several occasions. Susana had filed for divorce, but before the proceedings were set to begin, Blackwell shot and murdered Susana and her unborn child in a Seattle Courthouse.xviii

Sexual Abuse of a Child, Forced Labor: Norman H. McDonald pled guilty to sexually abusing his Ukrainian mail order wife’s daughter since the age of 3. McDonald had also forced his wife to hold several jobs.xix

Physical Abuse, Failure to Provide Immigration Information: Nataliya Fox, a Russian who came to the United States on a K-1 visa, has recently filed a lawsuit against Encounters International, a long-standing matchmaking service in Maryland. Nataliya was originally set to marry a Virginian whom she had met through Encounters, but upon the failure of that marriage, Encounters set her up with another match, James Fox. Nataliya and James were married within the month, however Nataliya was severely assaulted by James while she was breastfeeding their newborn daughter. A few months prior to that incident, Nataliya had informed Encounters that her husband had hit her. Nataliya’s lawsuit charges Encounters with failing to have run a background check on her husband’s previous history (which includes an accusation from a former fiancée of his attempt to strangle her to death) and with failing to provide her with the legally required immigration information about her ability to self-petition for permanent residence as a battered immigrant woman. James Fox is currently married to another mail-order bride.xx

Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 07:57:

I don't know Caulfield... This is going to be a sensitive subject in a forum such as this. But what the hell?

Of course guys seeking mail order brides are wierdos. I don't care what convoluted explanation they give... they're losers who can't make a relationship happen the old fashioned way.

I'm not talking about personal adds. That's one thing. But the entire mail-order-bride-from-the-developing-world is something else entirely. They're freaks, and nothing they do should surprise anyone.

But do you really want the government involved in background checks? You want your taxes to pay for that? Or maybe they'll make it a mandatory surcharge for those using the matchmaker's services? How would that work? Before you could even correspond with your match, you'd have to pay several hundred dollars for a background check?

Screw that. People need to exercise some common sense and take some minimal responsibility for their own lives. I don't want the government involved... isn't it enough that convictions are public record?

You want a background check? Hire a private eye!

Want to do a background check on one of the skanks listed at "Colombia Singles," or some other such site targetting American Peter Pans?

Simple: look at "employment." If it's blank, or says "model" or "self-employed," she's a hooker. What else do you need to know?

Wasteland

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:26:

I'm going to share something with you guys that's going to open myself up for all kinds of attacks, but regardless of what you guys say, I was there.

My ex-wife was 8 months pregnant with our daughter. I went to work one morning at 4:30 AM. I left the office at about 3:30 PM, exhausted, and arrived home at 4:00 PM. I swear to God, all I wanted was to take my tie and dress shoes off, loosen my collar, and sit down for a minute. When I arrived in the bedroom, I found it ransacked. My wife had lost a friendship ring some guy had given her before our marriage. I do not believe the ring was given as a romantic gesture because the guy was a dentist and she was his Dental Assistant. He was 40 years her senior and fulfilled the role of the "father she never had". I met him on several occasions, we'd grilled fish tacos in the backyard, I'd seen them interact. She was desperate for a Dad. Anyway, the ring turned up missing. I was accused of taking it. Frankly I was not in the mood for the accusation and denial routine, so I just said "Look, I haven't seen that ring in three months". She kept insisting that I had to have taken it because rings don't just get up and walk away. The basis was supposedly that I was jealous. The truth is, I didn't give a damn about the ring. I really didn't. Sorry she lost it, but only because losing it meant that I was being accused of having something to do with it. I was in the room for approximately 2 minutes before realizing I couldn't convince her otherwise, so I left and went outside for 5 minutes. I came back in the room. This time all MY drawers were emptied on the floor, my clothes had been taken out of the closet and were strewn across the floor as well. She was searching my pockets. As she finished going through my favorite pair of slacks and got ready to throw them over her shoulder, I grabbed the wrist clutching the pants to keep her from throwing them. I said "Hey, I said I didn't know where the ring is, why are you throwing MY stuff around?" Her answer, and I'll never forget it was "Because I know you took it you bastard!" and she socked me with her free hand. I take a step back. She stands up. "Give it to me! Give it to me!" Socking me twice more "I don't have the fuckin thing!" w/ my arms up around my face. Every time I denied it she got more angry and more physical. This shit went on for the next 10-12 minutes. I was tired of getting hit. I could easily defend myself against her, but instead I grab her wrists again, both wrists. I look her in the eye and say "You need to calm down! Just because you can't find it doesn't mean I have it." Now that I have her wrists, as far as she's concerned it's a fight. Wriggling to get free, she starts screaming "Let me go, Let me go" and so she knees me in the groin. She's 7 or 8 months pregnant, mind you, so kneeing me in the groin she fell off balance. She didn't fall straight down because I had her wrists, she kind of "slumped" down. So now she's on the ground kicking. I sit on her legs. By this time I have been scratched all over my face and neck, I'm bleeding, I have a bite mark in my BACK, my white dress shirt is torn halfway off, all this before I made the decision to grab her wrists. I look her in the eyes and I say "Tiffany, look at me. LOOK AT ME! Look at what you've done to me!" She's screaming "Let me go!" at the top of her lungs. I say "Look at me Tiffany. I'm gonna let you go, but I want you to promise you're gonna stop this. I'm tired, I don't know where the ring is, and this is stupid. Are you going to stop?" She screamed "Let me go!" about 5 or 6 times before she said "OK". I let her go. As we were cleaning up afterwards, there was a knock at the door. LAPD. Evidently since the windows were open, a neighbor heard a woman screaming "Let me go!" and called the police. I was never particularly "excited" during the whole thing, and I wasn't speaking as loud. Besides, I don't think screaming makes a point any more valid. I hate it when people scream thinking that makes their point stronger. Anyway, the neighbor could only hear my ex-wife. In California, once the police come to your house, someone has to go to jail. The police look at me, bloody, shirt ripped halfway off my back, bite mark in my back, and then they look at her, without a scratch on her. Hair a little messed up but otherwise flawless. My skin under her fingernails. My blood on her clothes. They say "Well really it's up to you guys to decide who goes, but somebody has to go." Tiffany says "I'll go." Fuckin cop turns to me and asks "Do you really want your pregnant wife to go to jail? I don't really think you're a bad guy, but the law is the law. Someone has to go and if you do, you'll be out tomorrow." I say to myself "Fuck it" and I volunteer to take Tiffany's place. They handcuff me with my hands in front and put a jacket over my hands so the neighbors couldn't "see" I was handcuffed. They led me outside. The entire neighborhood was standing on their curbs watching. In jail, my wife called maybe 10 or 12 times asking the jailer to let me go. My Dad had to come down there at midnight to bail me out.

A week later the City Attorney called us to her office to review the case, because the City Attorney was thinking about taking over the case to prosecute me as a wife beater. My ex-wife and I went down there. The City Attorney read the police report. These bastards wrote that I came home frustrated from a hard day at work and just for no reason beat my wife up. They said my blood, scratches and all that were signs that my wife put up a fight, that she was trying to defend herself. They said I threw her to the ground and sat on her stomach, threatening the life of our child and that if the child died, it would be murder. They said my wife was afraid for her life. The City Attorney finished the report and looked at us. My ex-wife just sat there. I said "That doesn't sound anything like what happened." The City Attorney asked my wife "Do you see anything in the report that should be changed?" My wife said "No." I said "Tiffany, did you just hear the police's version of the story?" She said "Oh, read it again." The City Attorney read the story again and asked my wife if she would testify that that's what happened. By the grace of God my ex-wife said "No, that's not how it happened." And she told the truth. In the car afterward, I asked my ex-wife why she initially told the City Attorney that nothing should be changed and she said "I just said 'No' because I wanted to get out of there." I said "Don't you realize what was happening? They're trying to tell this horrible story about me so they can prosecute me." As it turned out, the City Attorney decided to drop the charges for lack of evidence. I had to get a letter from them saying that there were no charges pending against me for my employer.

The moral of the story is this: I am automatically suspicious of any report that says "Oh the guy just beat up his wife for no reason, he threw her around, he did this, he did that." I am especially suspicious when they say "He tried to control her, he was insecure, etc." They're just prosecution buzzwords and it doesn't mean that it happened that way. There's still a police report filed somewhere at the LAX courthouse that uses the same type of bullshit language about the incident at MY house. According to them I worked an 11 hour day, came home and beat the shit out of my 7 month pregnant wife for no reason at all within 15 minutes of me getting home. Even though I was the one with all the wounds and she just had her hair ruffled from ransacking the apartment and when she fell down. I got home at 4, I was in handcuffs by 4:30. I think they try to spin these stories as much as they possibly can. None of caulfield's examples show what really happened. We don't know WHAT the woman was doing. All the women are portrayed as victims, just like my wife was. And the man is portrayed as a raging monster. So I don't want to sound soft on domestic violence, but generally men just want to sit down. I don't know ANY man that enjoys arguing with his wife. Men just want to get to a sensible end to the conflict, women seem to be in it for distance and irritation.

Now apply this to international relationships. You get a woman over here who knows how the "system" works, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to use the buzzwords and destroy the guy so she can be free to do whatever she wants. So my response to caulfield's examples are that yes, they are sad stories, but suspect. We don't know if these guys were being taken for a ride by malicious women who knew how to work it.

caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:32:

No, this would simply be a formalization or legalization of the reality that all women from foreign countries, especially where the women do not fluently speak English, SHOULD be given access to background histories and criminal checks for the men they are going to marry before they receive a K-1 or K-3 visa.

The US government and State Dept. check out the backgrounds of every woman that comes to the US, and I certainly feel that women have a right to know they are marrying a guy that has been divorced five times and has two domestic violence accusations in his past. If she still wants to move forward, caveat emptor.

And yes, any man who spends thousands of dollars in this pursuit should not be opposed to spending another $100-200 to give his future bride peace of mind. Of course, that does not guarantee her safety, and many cases are underreported...77% of foreign marriages have witnessed domestic violence, whereas less than 10% of that is actually reported to the authorities. Yeah, these surveys and polls are not scientific, and the numbers are still in the low thousands of marriages per year in the US. But that doesn´t mean the man should have all the power and rights....and yes, many women can and do come to the US and then turn around and file false domestic violences charges, which, by the way, stay on your record for many years whether you are innocent or not, AS A WAY OF STAYING IN THE US AND ESCAPING FROM A MAN THEY USUALLY DISLIKE.

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:32:

I also don't believe (but I could be wrong) that there's such a thing as a "mail order bride". If you buy the address or phone number from a catalog or an internet site, you still have to court the person. It's not like the women are "products" that you buy. They're people who must voluntarily agree to enter a relationship with YOU. They don't just come off the shelf and go home with whoever writes them.

Someone mentioned match.com or eharmony.com. Excellent examples. The only difference with match.com or eharmony.com is that your communication with the person can be electronic, since they're required to be members too. International introduction agencies, because many of the women (or men) are in countries or situations where internet connectivity isn't as accessible as it is in the U.S. or U.K., must of needs facilitate communication by telephone or letters. The old fashioned way. Or you can send an email and some kind of way they get it to the girl. But it's not like most of them have email at home or in their office. Aside from that technological difference, you still have to court and win the girl. It's not like you just pay and some girl shows up at your doorstep with her suitcase. I wouldn't be surprised if the term "mail order bride" was made up by some bitter American woman to minimize what really goes on in the development of an international relationship. In fact, that same bitter American woman is probably posting on Match.com trying to find a man herself.

Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:40:

Holy Shit Cam... After THAT story, I don't think I'll EVER get married.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:44:

My lawyer can beat up your lawyer... RE: Dating Agency Litigation -

What's next... sueing the priest who married you because your marriage failed ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

elmodefoque says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:49:

That’s why I’m such a big fan of hookers, no drama involve. Let me tell you; if my wife ever dumps my old ass, Im NEVER gonna get married, the hell with that. Just before my wife went off to Medellin on her 4 month vacation, she busted a lamp over my head leaving my then handsome (ok, let me lie a little) flawless face with a 2 inch scar all because I did not mind that she was going for such a long time. Damn if you do, damn if you don’t.
Cam great story, scared the crap outta me. Where was your ex from?

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:52:

My mother in law has chased my father in law with broken bottles, a hammer, and God knows what else. She's a fiera. In the last year at least 3 times she has been prepared to go to battle with other women in the neighborhood to protect her family's respect or some other principle. My point: from what I have seen domestic violence is not considered as delicate a subject in other countries as it is in the U.S. The U.S. is very tough on domestic violence (as it pertains to men as perpetrators and women as victims). I think it's B.S. The first thing people say is "Oh, you're bigger than her so you shouldn't hit her." True, but then we also generally accept that women are more emotional creatures. So who's most likely to lose control? Women are statistically more than twice as likely to use a weapon in a domestic violence incident. Roughly half of all domestic murders are women murdering their male partners. We spin that and say it's "defense". Not necessarily true. See this is all just another grand scheme to hold women blameless, as I was saying in my original post. Women ought to be just as responsible for their behavior as men have to be. Men are more than 10 times less likely to file a domestic violence report than women are. Men just don't call the police saying "My 110 lb wife just hit me." So you don't see women going to jail for it. So the statistics are skewed and frankly, worthless. Yet we base our laws on them. When LAPD comes to your house, they are prejudiced against the man because "70 some odd percent of all domestic violence cases involve the man beating the woman" but that's B.S. because men don't report it. You can't base law and prejudice on reported statistics when the overwhelming majority of female on male crimes are unreported. So I believe that in the U.S. and especially abroad, women feel that they can do these things with impunity. All they have to say is "I was afraid for my life, so I cut his balls off. Or I stabbed him in his sleep." Or she can slap you, punch you, kick you, bite you, and all you can do as a male is run out of your own house and wander the streets until this bitch calms down. If you report it, LAPD will ask "Well WHY did she hit you? Was she defending herself?" But if you restrain her, you're on offense as far as they're concerned. It's BS. I believe that men take more to get to "fighting mad". I believe women can be there in the blink of an eye, because in the back of her mind she knows there are no severe consequences for her. Turn on your TV. You see women slapping men or hitting men and it's seen as comedy or at least justified. Man hits a woman on TV it's drama or horror. We are subconciously teaching the population that this is "OK", when the truth is it is just as wrong for her as it is for him.

caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:54:

I had a relationship, both inside the US and outside, with a woman from Russia. We lived together for two and one-half years in the US.

I will tell you this much, many of the foreign website operators tell the girls they are signing up to be ¨penpals¨ because they don´t want to admit the truth, that they are basically ¨selling¨ the women, whether it is $10 for an address or $2,000 for an exclusive, full-service match-making service that babysits you.

Many of the men simply sent pictures to my ex of their car, house, boat...told about how much money they made or how important they were, about what exotic vacations they could go on, etc.

I suppose I ¨won¨ if that is what you want to call it because I was the opposite in every way...a teacher in an inner city school, a volunteer services program director...in other words, I was not trying to impress her, I was just being myself.

In another sense, I lost because we are no longer together as a couple, but the main reason is because we were incompatible. We are still good friends. She´s incredibly intelligent...many of the women from Russia have better university educations, MAs, PhDs...than in the US. She is a model part-time now in the US, but it is not her primary identity. But I can guarantee that is possible to meet good people from other countries on the Internet.

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 08:55:

She's from New Orleans, Louisiana elmo. Ironically, she went back there after the divorce and well... you know what happened there. As I watched it on TV I could not force myself to feel sympathy because of all that happened in that relationship. They say what comes around goes around. It's karma, baby.

caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:01:

Just read the story of former professional baseball pitcher Chuck Finley and Tawny Kitaen, perhaps best known for being the girl in the Whitesnake video.

http://www.glennsacks.com/kitaen_plays_the.htm

Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:06:

If you can't win... don't play. Men don't have a chance in this country.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:10:

Well, I dissagree with you both. Caulfield,

The State Department has a legal responsibility to vet immigrants to the US. That doesn't translate to a legal reponsibility to vet potential American mates for foreign nationals...

For crying out loud, who IS going to pay for that?

I'm not. My tax dollars should go to background checks to protect Filippinnas who want to use a matching service from borderline American men? What, until they find a good one???

No joda. I think my taxes are already stretched pretty tightly, thanks!

The problem with suggesting that the CLIENT pay is that it simply won't work. It flies in the face of international commerce and human behavior.

The US has no jurisdiction to pass such a law for an agency operating out of Colombia. It could do so for a business incorporated in the US... which would have the effect of simply destroying that industry in the US. Clients, especially those with skeletons in the closet, will go where they want.

Sure, Congress is pondering all kinds of convoluted ways to get around sovereignty issues and market forces. They will ALL be invasive, expensive, and worst of all, inneffective. Just another example of the law of unintended consequences.
________________

And Cam...

If you don't think a mail order bride industry exists, I recommend you hit google. Yes indeed, it does.

I'll admit the dividing line can be very grey. Eharmony and Match certainly look a lot like the "international matchmaking sites," but in practice things are very different.

If I use Match to meet another American in my city, yes, I have to court her. And she me. Proximity, language, and culture make it in both parties' interest to have a normal courtship.

When a man from Demoine corresponds with a Ukranian, proximity, language, and culture reduce such courtship to an empty dance. Is he going to fly out to the Ukraine every weekend to hang out with her, her friends, and her family? How many HOURS in each other's presence do you think they'll spend before they make huge legal commitments to each other?

Will a woman allow herself to be bought like a piece of furniture?

YES. Some women will.

That's the point. When two cultures with such a wide disparity in wealth and power collide, yes... some will do anything to get out. And some men avail themselves of that desparation.

I'm making what I would call a valid generalisation here.

For the record: I'm sure true love happens. I'm not sure it really even matters, given that marriage has been an economic institution since the dawn of time. I'm not even condemning the mail order bride phenomenon; if people want to do that, they should be able to do that. It's not up to us to judge.

I'm just suggesting that all parties have to use common sense, take some personal responsibility, and consider the REALITIES of the situation.

Equating Yahoo personals, for example, with "International Affair," isn't being realistic. There is a LOT more risk involved with "International Affair."

Wasteland

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:14:

Sad sad sad. It happens to men everyday, and the article seems to imply that judges KNOW it's happening. The article illustrates, as was the case in my situation, that neither the criminal court nor family court seems to care about FINDING THE TRUTH. That is what makes them a farce. And the police are even worse. They're just Joes that come to your house to take someone to jail, regardless.

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:22:

Wastelandlive, you draw valid differneces between Match.com and International Meet-a-Friend or whatever the agencies are called. Still, if you and I go down to Home Depot to buy garden hose, whichever garden hose I pick is going home with me. I think to say "Mail Order Bride" equates the international relationship to random picking and choosing, just like the garden hose. I think it's more involved than that. Obviously for logistics reasons it's less intensive than a local girl met through Match.com. But at the same time it's more than "I'm Joe, I paid my $29.95, see ya in a couple of months." I don't think that kind of service exists, because that would actually be trafficking in persons. That's the difference between an international introduction agency and a Mail Order Bride.

I'm granting you that a girl might be overwhelmed and inclined to go with a marginal guy who shows interest in her. But she's not compelled. That's the difference between slavery and international introduction.

Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:26:

Either way, you're hosed. But at least the garden variety is guaranteed or your money back.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

Mario says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:34:

Not nearly as bad but... Ex-wife was having a screaming fit over a 2 day late car payment and intended to leave to go to her girlfriend's house in the car - TOTALLY PLASTERED.

I go out behind her and take her by the upper arm, ushering her into the house with some minor resistance. On the way in, she's at the top of her lungs "let go of my f****** arm". Neighbor right next door hears this and calls the police.

Police come and interview both of us. "You took her by the arm?" Yes sir. "Please stand up and put your hands behind you".

End result:

"Assault on family member"

2 years state probation
6 months in AA (I had beer breath) "hello, my name is Mario and I'm court-ordered to be here"
80 hours community service
15 Saturdays in Anger Management counseling !!!
$2,000 fine and court costs

All this for trying to keep her from a DUI, killing or hurting herself or someone else on the road.

I never held it against the neighbor. She did the right thing.

"The angle of the dangle is directly proportionate to the swerve of the curve."

elmodefoque says on Jan 25, 2006, 09:35:

Contrary to what most think, I’m not the classic Colombian macho guy, I don’t behave anything like those old fashioned f—ks, I’m a product of NYC and the 60’s. Peace and love generation. I’ve never raised my hand at a woman, yet, I had a plate of hot enchilada dumped on my head in a middle of a crowded Manhattan restaurant. I had a baby glass bottle busted on my leg causing deep bloody 5 inch gash on both legs. I was manhandled and dragged out from many bars in Manhattan by my girlfriends, in front of all my friends. I had the lamp incident and countless of scratches, kicks and other violent acts against me by countless of girls. Even my daughters boss me around. The worst I’ve done as far as hitting back was to throw a cellophane container containing half a chicken and fried rice at my then girlfriend which landed right on her face, but I did that only after she threw her plate at me first. Let me tell you, I could knock out any of these broads with one punch but it NEVER, NEVER entered my mind. Most of the attacks were caused because of jealousy, and in most cases with damn good reason. I admit, I’m a shameless cheap slut, but I don’t think that’s a good reason to beat me up.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

caribgirl says on Jan 25, 2006, 10:05:

I think meeting throug
I think meeting through local dating agencies and marriage brokers that are International are very different. As someone pointed out,dating a person From Michiagn if you live in New York is very different than dating a latina in Colombia or a Russian girl in Russia if you live in New York.

Lots of people who use those agencies are not fluent in each others language and Communication is key to any relationship. Also,Though I was not born is the U.S. I was raised here and still find a few cultural issues I was raised with entering my marriage.The cultural differences can be a bit confusing to both parties too.

Now if you date locally,you can travel state to state on weekends or at least a couples of times a month and speak with each other everyday being fluent with each others language,again that is a big help.

A woman or man you meet on Match.com locally most likely will already have a career and be updated on local laws and customs. They also drive and will be more independent. A foreign spouse may not.

I have seen many foreign men living in the U.S. go back to their countries and marry a woman from back home. But they have the advantage of language and culture and usually the help of family and friends to weed out a good and sincere girl for them,

We also cannot ignore the fact that seeing how your significant other handles certain situations and crisis over time is a big indicator of who they really are. International dating where there is a language barrier hardly has that oppurtunity for each to really know who they are getting. There are rose covered glasses on both parties. While they both excuse some of the behavior they would not put up with from the local guys or gals. I've seen men and women ignore red flags left and right,why? Because they have invested so much financially and emotionally .

Now if you speak each other's language fluently ,understand each others culture and the Foreign person has been to the U.S. and somewhat understands the culture so her rose colored glasses are more realistic and she has a career and can financially take care of herself if she had to,or family and support syatem in the U.S.then the situation is more like Match.com.

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 10:21:

Nice post, caribgirl. I'm not saying that a dating agency is as good as a Match.com (which is not perfect, either), all I'm saying is that it's not as simple as picking any woman you want off the shelf.

And Mario, your story is worse. I really have a problem with the fact that this kind of thing could happen to you, it's wrong. At least I didn't have any penalties associated with my incident, aside from the roughly 8 hours I spent in the clink. Mine was over in a day, you had constant reminders. I offer you my deepest sympathies.

BTW, that counts as a "statistic", the type of statistic women's activists and legislators point to perpetuate the DV lie. That's why any story that just says "He beat his wife" is suspect to me. In fact, I outright DOUBT those stories unless more info is given.

Mario says on Jan 25, 2006, 10:44:

The funny thing was In that 15 week anger management group, I got to see who I was NOT. I saw many guys who had no problem with the belief that it was appropriate to strike a woman to "put her in line". To me, this is trailer-trash mentality. It is my own belief that the only time it is ok to hit anyone else is in defense of yourself, and/or your family. Never as child discipline or for any other reason than what I just said. I did all the streetfighting shit in the late '70's, early '80's in Philly and even that would be something I wouldn't repeat if I could go back knowing what I do now.

BTW - There were only 2 guys in that group who admitted being hit by their wife/girlfriend. The counselor stated many times that these types of assaults go unreported because of the associated stigma of appearing 'wimpy'. And then they lock up the guy, believing the BS story coming from the c**t who really snuck him in reality.

"The angle of the dangle is directly proportionate to the swerve of the curve."

Crazy4Cali says on Jan 25, 2006, 11:35:

Yikes I lead such a boring life...

1st, I don't understand why more WOMEN aren't offended by the type of cases cited by Mario and Cam. If women as a group were sincerely concerned with reducing domestic violence, they should be outraged at the frivolous cases or the mis-applied cases as they distract from the ones where a woman is actually in danger. Instead, because of the "we must all stick together" attitude, it's turned from "women against domestic violence" to "women against men." The view seems to be that there are two types of men: those who HAVE comitted an act of domestic violence and those who WILL.

This applies to false claims of rape as well, where a woman has consensual sex but later changes her mind for some reason of invents the story completely. These cases are simply dismissed from view rather than scorned.

WRT Mail-Order brides, if there is any place where disclosure should be required, it should be from the agency more than from its members/clientele.

How often does an agency in disclose to the prospective brides what they are signing up for and how the agency makes its money? Do the women know these men are paying umpty-thousand dollars just to get their address? (Do they imagine that such fees might set up certain expectations in their minds?) My guess is there's as much fast talking on the woman's side of the transaction as there is on the man's side.

The story cited earlier sounds more like a calculating woman who knows how to work the system than some poor, helpless victim. Ironically, I've known some women who are very good at playing the victim and manipulating the situation so as to maximize their "victimhood." So I, too, have become somewhat slower to jump on "that poor dear" bandwagon when reading anecdotes such as those cited from the web-site. Sure, it's possible that a good-hearted woman was taken in by a cold-hearted man, but rarely are the cases that cut-and-dried.

While I now have a Colombian wife, I don't understand how you can have a relationship (other than sexual, of course) with someone you can't talk to. While my Spanish is hardly fluent, I did study it for several years before dipping into the Colombian dating pool. So, in my case, I had at least some cultural and linguistic familiarity with whom I was seeking. Couples who share very little in common linguisticly must be psychic. But there is still alot about relationships that I don't understand so I'll keep an open mind in the mean time.

Some time ago, I was looking at the pictures from one "international match-making agency" that arranged these "mixer vacations" where the agency would make all the travel arrangements for the gringo to fly to the foreign country and meet a bunch of women at a "party" (guaranteed 2-1 ratio or better!) then they also had a couple of romantic trips/evenings/outings, etc planned for later so you and whoever the lucky girl you choose could consummate your new found friendship/romance. Anyway, the photos were hilarious. The stunned looks on faces were priceless. All the gringos looked like the stereotypical 40-yo kid in a candy store and the women (girls) all looked anywhere from stunned to "I hit the jackpot!" Thus perpetuating the stereotype... That's about as "mail-order" as it gets, I suppose. "Come on over and pick the one you want to take home!" It might work for some, but that's not my style (especially now that I'm married!)

Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:07:

Cam Not that there's a lot of point in arguing here... I just want to tell you that as somebody who has spent a good portion of his life overseas, I find some of your assumptions startling:

1. "I think to say "Mail Order Bride" equates the international relationship to random picking and choosing, just like the garden hose. I think it's more involved than that."

What would you call a guy choosing from a list of pictures, with descriptions less than 100 words? How much more involved is it that than picking the hose? A brief email correspondence, and then you're off?

2. "Obviously for logistics reasons it's less intensive than a local girl met through Match.com."

Ya. That's the point. Several orders of magnitude less intensive.

3. "... I don't think that kind of service exists, because that would actually be trafficking in persons. That's the difference between an international introduction agency and a Mail Order Bride."

People traffic in people all the time, that's neither here nor there.

The question is, to what degree is the "international introduction" a simple commercial transaction, or do these people have the desire and opportunity to build a relationship before they make the big commitment?

I think you are a little bit naive about what's going on with the international match sites. I used to live in Cartagena... I SAW it.

Are you thinking about it? Have you done it?

My advice? DON'T. Colombianas are wonderful, and there are many ways to meet *quality* Colombianas, get to know them, and settle down with one mature enough to love you for all of you, not just your bank account and passport.

Wasteland

LOCO HOMBRE says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:26:

I was talking about older colombian men not gringos como yo.

Albatross says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:35:

Amigos.com A few months before my last trip to Colombia, I decided to give internet dating a shot so I enrolled in Amigos.com to get a few leads before I went. I sent out a bunch of lame one paragraph introductions (Hola, me llamo... soy Americano... blah, blah, blah), and I got a some responses and some phone numbers. When I got to Medellin, I called the first one on the list (Angie) and set up a date for later that afternoon. About a half a block from the Parque where we were supposed to meet, I bailed out. (Sorry Angie)

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with internet dating or mail-order brides, per se, but it just seems sort of contrived and unnatural... unromantic.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 12:49:

Wastelandlive, I'm going to assume the blame for miscommunication. You seem like a reasonable person. Surely you can see the difference between internet dating and trafficking in persons.

The worst male candidate and the most malicious female who hook up for marriage is still not the same as trafficking in persons.

He still has to petition for her. Part of the petition process involves her going on a scavenger hunt for various documents that she has to return to the embassy. In the end, she's standing in front of a consular officer who's asking her "Do you want to do this?"

Without her cooperation, nothing moves forward.

The term Mail Order Bride implies that the guy just picks a girl, sends off a check, and she shows up without any willful cooperation on her part. It doesn't happen that way and you're grossly misinformed if that's what you think.

If we went to Home Depot, the garden hose has no say in who takes it home. That's why I used the example.

The poor girl in a third world country might feel like Joe American is a ticket to whatever. He may have lied to her, misled her, or whatever. But still, until she gets off her behind and does some diligence, she can't go anywhere. SHE HAS WORK TO DO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. FURTHERMORE, JUST BECAUSE SHE RECEIVES A COMMUNIQUE FROM JOE AMERICAN, DOESN'T MAKE HER HIS PROPERTY.

That's the lie perpetuated about Mail Order Brides.

If you want to take pot shots at the process and say that the two individuals don't get to know each other to reasonable depth, that's one thing. That's a point that I think each individual has to decide for him/herself. We can't really say what's "enough" contact for someone else, we can only speak for our own individual relationships, so I won't even argue that point.

But an internet relationship is not the same as trafficking in persons.

Scrolling through a catalog looking at 100 pictures and a couple of one liners before deciding who you want to approach is more information than you have at a nightclub. I go into a club and I might see 4 or 5 "prospects". I gotta make up my mind who I'm going to try my luck with based on existential bullshit like how she carries herself, who she's with, and how approachable she is. But I know nothing about her until I start talking to her. I'm not much better off than picking her out of a catalog. Now when I approach her, based on what I say, how she receives me, maybe I have a chance with her. Done it a million times. But then it's not that different with an internet agency. I try to discern to the best of my ability, based on very limited information, who I want to approach. Then based on a host of different variables, maybe we start talking. I granted you that maybe the girl might have some incentives to talk to the foreign male because she perceives him to be "better" than he really is or a ticket to some kind of different lifestyle or whatever. But to say that ANY guy can snag ANY girl online is just bullshit. I know a lot of girls in Cartagena too, and it just doesn't work like that.

Mario says on Jan 25, 2006, 13:08:

Not so. "The view seems to be that there are two types of men: those who HAVE comitted an act of domestic violence and those who WILL."

I'd say there are four. The two mentioned above as well as those who by virtue would never take their hand to a woman, and then the men who themselves have been victims of domestic violence like our dear Elmodefoque and myself.

It was the old style Ma Bell telephone BASE with the dial on the face - direct to the side of the head, snuck and cold-cocked in 1996 resulting in permanent interior ocular scarring.

"The angle of the dangle is directly proportionate to the swerve of the curve."

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 13:15:

The ones who would never take their hands to a woman are just the ones fortunate enough not to have been involved with a lunatic. In the right situation ANY man would defend himself against a woman, including knocking her the ef out if need be.

I bet that hiker last year previously thought "I would never mutilate myself" until he found himself pinned down and had to hack his arm off with a dull blade to survive.

You never know till you're in the situation.

Crazy4Cali says on Jan 25, 2006, 13:35:

Out of context... I said: "The view seems to be that there are two types of men: those who HAVE comitted an act of domestic violence and those who WILL."

Obviously that's not the case however the D.V. laws and often public perception seem to take the view expressed above.

While the instinctive reaction in response to a physical assault is self-defense. Nowadays, it seems like the best thing you can do is run out of the house and call the police and stay as far away from your wife/girlfriend, etc. until the dust settles.

While this may (though there are no guarantees) keep you out of jail, it sure isn't going to help mend your relationship (or your ego as the 4-11, 80-lb raving lunatic woman is chasing the 6-ft 200-lb man down the street). But what else can you do?

At that point it's not her against you, it's the whole-city and state government against you.

And the guy who cut off his arm was an idiot.

Cerealkiller says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:07:

Hmm in regards to the original post. I think most guys know when theyre being used, it isnt like theyre stupid, it doesnt even require "malicia indigena"...Girls need a green card and dollars and guys want someone to show off and who reassures them constantly, so all in all it is a win win situation. I dont think Colombian girls are all goldiggers or all gringos exploited victims. People KNOW when theyre really loved, and if they put up with sending money to the girl's family in exchange for deceit then thats their problem, its consensual abuse!!!
In regards to LDR's, I agree with Kat (yay Kat, you rock!!), its all about taking things seriously and trusting each other, I´ve been on an LDR for the past 3 years and I have absolutely no complaints, I trust him, he trusts me and there is no need for cheating (at least on this side), if one wants to have a fling then just dump your partner and go for it, as simple as that.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:25:

Well, the guy who cut off his arm was convinced he would die out there if he didn't. You may know more about the story than I do. What I was trying to say is that under different levels of stress and desperation your normal reasoning process doesn't function the same way. You can't say with any certainty what you would "never do". It just means you haven't been truly tested yet. And I'm not directing that to you personally Crazy4Cali, but rather to mankind as a whole. It's very naive for us to limit ourselves to what we can "see" ourselves doing.

Some people say they could never kill another person. That's a common one. I have seen the meekest, most humble, harmless looking guy kill when I was in the Army. We had this guy named Danny in our unit. So docile I remember we locked him in his own wall locker one day (I still feel bad about that). But then when we got deployed and he had that moment of clarity that people were trying to kill us, he was just as reliable as anyone else. And a damn accurate shot too, I might add.

caulfield2 says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:32:

Sorry cam, if we went off on another tangent, I think it has made for an interesting conversation, although one that would obviously be more heated were there more female viewpoints, lol.

As far as the foreign dating scene and why it is so difficult...

1) 90-95% of the men that correspond with women in Russiao the Ukraine never even go there, which causes disillusionment with keyboard Romeos who stupidly promise the world to someone they have never met

2) Flying 12 hours in one day is another obstacle, and the $600-1400 pricetag for flights to Russia

3) You have to leave the US and spend time with any woman in her country before you can bring her to the US on a K-1 visa

4) Phone bills can be crazy

5) Single Russian and Ukrainian women are NEVER granted a tourist visa to the US unless they are 45 plus...I have never heard of one in the last five years

6) You have to wait anywhere from 4-18 months before you can even bring your fiance-wife into the country

7) there are so many USCIS forms and documents...it ends up costing somewhere between $1,500-2,000 just for all this...and that is if you do it without a lawyer, on your own

8) There is a 9-15 hour time difference, which makes phone conversations much more difficult

9) You are going to spend a minimum of $5,000-10,000 just visiting her, hotels, vacations, flight for her to the US

Actually, one of the biggest problems is that it is easy to get a K-1 visa, which is like a trial period...because of the costs involved, many couples use this as a time to be together for only the 2nd or 3rd time instead of seriously preparing for marriage knowing that is what you want...I do not know the official rate, but I would imagine more than 60-70% of the women that come on K-1s never even get married...which leads to them returning to their country, having on-line relationships and getting money from 2-3 men at a time, because they get burned so many times they figure they have to continue their normal lives because things are never going to work out with an American or European.

One of the biggest problems with the K-1 is there are so many in the system holding up things for those who really want to be with someone or get married...I am talking guys that have 2-3 petitions simultaneously or have already gone through the process five plus times and still have not found the one they were looking for.

One of the big differences between here and Russia is that a majority of the really good women you would want to meet speak fluent English and have advanced level university educations. In many ways, women from this part of the world are very much similar to their American counterparts...hard-working, driven, material-oriented, MTV-raised, fashion and make-up conscious. The women from both Eastern Europe and here in Colombia wont step out of their house without looking dressed to kill. No gym shorts, it is only tight jeans and mini-skirts. Economically, there is almost no difference between the two countries...maybe a slight advantage to Russia over Colombia due to oil reserves and science-technology prowess.

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:42:

Good post. I wouldn't dispute any of that.

Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 14:56:

Cam... As I said, it's not really worth arguing about. Nor assuming blame for miscommunication. We're just chatting. But you've got me wrong:

C: "The term Mail Order Bride implies that the guy just picks a girl, sends off a check, and she shows up without any willful cooperation on her part. It doesn't happen that way and you're grossly misinformed if that's what you think."

That's not what I think. And I don't think that's what "mail order bride implies." That WOULD be grossly misinformed... of course they "willfully cooperate."

They seek the agencies out!

What I'm trying to suggest to you is that the courtship which you assume follows the introduction is pretty damn lame, however much you want to dress it up. That's where I feel like you're not being honest with yourself. I see your notes full of weasel phrase:

C: "there's more too it... SHE HAS WORK TO DO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN... We can't really say what's "enough" contact for someone else, we can only speak for our own individual relationships, so I won't even argue that point..."

Well Cam, let's say it's like art: we know it when we see it. There's more too it? Doesn't look like it to me. Half the time these couples don't even have a language in common. And I don't know exactly what "enough time" is either, but I'm sure that what most of these couples are going through simply isn't.

It'd be interesting if there were some follow up statistics, no? How many of these relationships had survived five years?

C: "But an internet relationship is not the same as trafficking in persons."

I didn't suggest it was. That seems like a straw man, and I'm not sure why the distinction makes you feel better.

C: "Scrolling through a catalog looking at 100 pictures and a couple of one liners before deciding who you want to approach is more information than you have at a nightclub."

If you say so. You're doing it, aren't you Cam?

Best of luck to you. I hope it works out. If it doesn't, don't shoot the messenger.

Wasteland

Mario says on Jan 25, 2006, 15:05:

Cam "The ones who would never take their hands to a woman are just the ones fortunate enough not to have been involved with a lunatic. In the right situation ANY man would defend himself against a woman, including knocking her the ef out if need be."

At the moment of the phone incident, and as blood ran down the side of my face - I did nothing. I just looked at her and said "nice job". Then I stared at her a moment longer and walked downstairs, cleaned up and left the house. The bitch cried for 3 days straight after that, which was a good thing. All I ever did was escort her inside when she was on a drunk one night, and she was a lunatic when drunk, and angry at the same time.

So what you said isn't entirely on the mark.

C4C - what you said about it's not her, it's government, etc., that's right on the money. The best thing to do in that situation is EXIT the situation, sage advice - and in hindsight.... I wish I would've let her drive looped that night.

"The angle of the dangle is directly proportionate to the swerve of the curve."

cam0940 says on Jan 25, 2006, 15:09:

No Wastelandlive I'm actually married, but I'm just saying.

Some courtships may be lame. OK. I buy that.

I've been to the embassy in Bogota and I saw with my own eyes the couples that were applying for K-1 visas on that particular day. Yes, there were some you looked at and just thought "Huh?" But there was one other couple there, a guy that worked for Delta in Atlanta and a Bogotana. They were a decent couple. I think my wife and I are a decent couple. I think Crazy4Cali and his wife are a decent couple. I think Utopiacowboy and his wife are a decent couple. I think wOw and his girl are a decent couple. Mario and his wife. There are several of us who at one stage or another maintained communication either electronically or telefonically. Whichever way you made initial contact with the girl I think is beside the point, it's what happens afterwards. The agencies are like a Jayo Felony hit "I can give it to you, but whatcha gonna do with it?"

The quality of your courtship, the development of the relationship, all of that can be above board. It doesn't have to be cheesy, lame, and superficial.

Wastelandlive says on Jan 25, 2006, 15:52:

Well, I'll buy all that too. But I certainly never meant to imply that couples maintaining contact electronically qualified as the mail order bride crowd.

???

I doubt you guys would own up to it... but I'd be interested to know how many of these couples you list met through one of those agencies. Having read those guys, I don't think that they fit the profile... but you never know. Perhaps it does work out every now and then.

It sounds like Caulfield has a little hard earned knowledge in the field... or maybe he was on a teaching gig in Russia?

Wasteland

utopiacowboy says on Jan 25, 2006, 16:19:

You are absolutely right, Cam, when you say "The quality of your courtship, the development of the relationship, all of that can be above board. It doesn't have to be cheesy, lame, and superficial." It can be but then the same could be said of a "normal" relationship that begins in a club or bar. I've never figured out why meeting on the internet has a stigma attached to it that meeting half-drunk in some dive doesn't.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Crazy4Cali says on Jan 25, 2006, 16:22:

I confess My wife and I met the old-fashioned way: Match.com.

Personally, I think you can have the same success or failure regardless of how you meet. If you don't know the warning signs you won't see them whether you're in person or not. If you do know the warning signs, you can find them regardless of the communication medium.

People hook up with nut-cases they meet in bars, the library, on-line, at school, etc. and that's when both people live in the same country. They are drawn together for the same reasons they would be drawn together had they met on-line and lived 5000 miles apart.

You find what you look for.

If you like the excitement of a psycho-bitch-from-hell, well there you go. If you like being with a rich, successful man, don't complain when you find out he's controlling and domineering (ummm, how do you think he got a head in the rat race, by being sweet and romantic?)

It goes both ways and is independent of location.

The biggest problem with internet/pen-pal relationships is that there's way too much room for your imagination to get a