A second dead Italian?

Miguel says on Nov 9, 2005, 06:46:

Hunter This is a different case...are you referring to an Italian who got killed in Bogotá? They found this guy's body last Saturday night.

"There is nothing lower than the human race...except for the French." - Mark Twain 1878-79

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cochopechocho says on Nov 9, 2005, 07:10:

When the story was first reported it said his body wasn't found. "Italian Tourist Kidnapped, Killed in Colombia
By Jason Webb | March 2, 2005

BOGOTA, Colombia (Reuters) - Colombian kidnappers confessed to abducting and killing an Italian tourist who had boasted about his wealth in a brothel, police said on Wednesday.

Police have arrested nine people in connection with kidnapping Sabino Mobile on Feb. 4 in the town of Girardot, a popular warm-weather weekend destination a few hours' drive from the cool climate of the capital Bogota, Gabriel Sandoval, head of the DAS detective force in Girardot said.

Several of the suspects confessed to killing the 29-year-old jeweler around Feb. 20 and dumping his body in the Magdalena River after realizing he did not have as much money as he had claimed in excursions to bars and a brothel.

Detainees included two local prostitutes and three men who claimed to be members of the outlawed United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia, a far-right militia known by its Spanish initials AUC.

Sabino, from Foggia in Italy, arrived in Colombia on Dec. 20 with his Colombian wife and their two children but spent time boasting and throwing money around Girardot red light nightspots.

"He said he had lots of money, that he was going to buy a luxury hotel," Sandoval told Reuters.

His kidnappers kept him for some time on a rural property before disposing of him. His body has not been found."

Maybe they just now found the body.

Are you trying to make GIB even more nervous than he already is. JAJAJA !!!!

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Miguel says on Nov 9, 2005, 07:20:

Two different Italians Two different names, two different cases.

"There is nothing lower than the human race...except for the French." - Mark Twain 1878-79

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EdH says on Nov 9, 2005, 07:43:

Dead Italians Yes. This is a new Italian.

No dead English recently I hope!

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Hunter says on Nov 9, 2005, 08:21:

Murdered Italians there are always Italians dieing in Ctg, every few months or less from drugs, one ODed there a couple of weeks ago.

Hunter

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EdH says on Nov 9, 2005, 11:13:

Italians are easier targets - Northerners are more resistant

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Rubiazo says on Nov 9, 2005, 17:10:

Not more resistant..... It's just harder to hit a vital organ through that 4" layer of body fat!!

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MatteoCapogreco says on Nov 9, 2005, 20:59:

Exactly Rubiazo He was bragging, Foggia is not a place to brag either he should have known this. Maybe being drunk or whatever helped him along.

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2005/10_Ottobre/29/colombia.shtml

http://www.poc.it/stories/colombia/galleria/source/4.htm
a fellow countryman here shown mackin' farc women. Ha.

What are you bitter for Ed? Huh Son? You mad?

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shirly1981 says on Nov 10, 2005, 03:30:

in my last two forums.......... There is the whole story, Grigos open your eyes COLOMBIA IS THE BEST BUT DONT THINK EVERYBODY IS YOUR HANDMATE MMMMMMMMMM

Sophia

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EdH says on Nov 10, 2005, 05:12:

Gringos Good advice on Colombia for foreigners I think.

Bravo Matteo, perche cosi amaro? due anni abitando con Romani der caaazzooo! aaaooo!

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EdH says on Nov 10, 2005, 05:26:

Gringoinbogota I suppose we are making light of an innocent person who has lost their life through a piece of very bad judgement.

But a question for gringoinbogota. Are you saying it is not safe for foreigners to travel in colombia at all even when abiding by rules such as travelling inter-city by air, taking taxis, avoiding some rural areas, only withdrawing money inside banks with security...etc? I've never been there so I don't know but I plan to follow rules like this...

I'd never attack anyone who was giving out sensible realistic advice - that's just stupid - but it seems like you want to be the only foreigner resident or even present in Colombia or something...

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 10, 2005, 07:19:

I agree with GIB We have been saved from third-world-badly-planned tourists endeavors that I have seen in Peru or Mexico. More tourists will make colombians start investing and yes its good for the economy and all that... but knowing my dear country, it will all be done wrong, saving money here and there, stealing some when possible, not planning ahead....and then we will end up with tons of garbage that cities can't take care of, destruction of natural parks and areas to buid resorts and hotels... gringo plastic and tetrapack and junk all over. Signs in English. Lobster-red, flowered-shirt gringos all over the place looking for girls, more prostitution and underage sex, more unwanted pregnancies in teeenagers... and obviously no goverment plan for how to deal with this issues...

i don`t trust this or any other colombian goverment to be able to look at all the cosequences of an act and plan for it.

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Colombiche says on Nov 10, 2005, 07:29:

I think it will be good If Cartagena becomes a world class tourist destination. Why not?

I just hope it doesn't become like Cancun, where you can't even find a taqueria, all you can find at the restaurants is mashed potatoes and gravy....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 10, 2005, 08:10:

I agree with GIB. Unless you have family there, gringos have no business being in Colombia.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Albatross says on Nov 10, 2005, 08:33:

Ditto... Yes, gringos without family there should stay away from Colombia (except me).

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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boomer says on Nov 10, 2005, 08:40:

GIB, UTC..................................... I'll third that!!! It's all the talk about partying and beautiful women that's bringing the "Tourons" to Colombia. It's a FARC/AUC plot to seed Colombia with a cash crop, Tourons! Ja, Ja, Ja!

orgullo_de_colombia

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El Jefe says on Nov 10, 2005, 08:44:

Don't Throw the Baby Out with the Bath Water I agree with GIB and UC that hoards of dumbass, obnoxious, sun-burned tourists and pedophile/creepy/scumbag sex tourists is something Colombia could do without. This is very close to what happened to the Czech Republic when I lived there early after the Velvet Revolution. Now, Czechs earn on average four times more than they did when I lived there, and they can afford to buy homes. Unfortunately, now the country, especially Prague, has been drowned beneath Louie Vuitton, MTV, mega-malls and other vapid expressions of Western commercial culture (although the Czechs so far have been able to preserve their culture amidst this).

However, I think you're throwing the baby out with the bath water here.

All I ever hear on PBH is how ignorant, stupid, greedy "gringos" who just ruin everything. I've heard much the same said of the "evil foreigner" in Russia, where I live now. It's the same kind of close-mindedness and suspicion that really gets on my nerves sometime.

Well, I ask you, how is your average gringo supposed to obtain some cross-cultural understanding if he/she stays in the home country and never travels? You can't on the one hand say how arrogant and ignorant "the gringo" is, and then on the other, tell them they can't visit Colombia when they wish to extinguish that ignorance. This argument makes no sense. To me, it is just a question of character - some tourists are dumbasses, and some aren't.

I'm moving to Bogota for a year with my colombiana in August. I'm going to learn the culture and the language better and immerse myself as much as possible so I can understand her and her people as best as possible. I don't see anything wrong with that. And with respect to safety - safety is pretty much common sense and listening to people who have more experience than you. It's not about fear, necessarily, it's about being humble and realizing that you really don't know that much.

And for God's sake, who the hell goes to the shady part of town and brags about how rich they are in front of a bunch of prostitutes? It saddens me that a life was lost, but come on - That just looks like Darwinism in action.

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lockheed says on Nov 10, 2005, 10:06:

Italia Vice I used to know a prostitute from Baranquilla that use to do some drug trafficking on the side, and she use to tell me alot of Italian come to the coast to run drugs to Italy, and alot of times while waiting for their deals to go down they get all drugged up and get themselfs in alot of trouble.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 10, 2005, 10:15:

Gringos Personally, I find Colombia to be a refreshing case study in how a country can fuck itself up WITHOUT any help from gringo tourists. It's easy to forget after visiting a place like Cancun or the DR that gringos don't have any monopoly on acting crass or deviant in foreign countries. But watch any average busload of Colombian package tourists at the coast and they're every bit as obnoxious as most foreigners.

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 10, 2005, 10:44:

OK The dangers in urban Colombia are little different from other major Latin American cities. Yea it's probably not the place for a first time trip overseas for anyone, BUT if a traveller/tourist is familiar and knows how South America and Latin America is, Colombia can definitely be safely visited.

You can't make tourists into a black and white thing.

On one hand you've got the pampered clueless monolingual Mom & Pop who travel to a new place to stay in the same hotel chains they have at home, drik the same brand of coffe, and eat the same breakfast. They will be robbed blind and have a terrible time. They could also be robbed blind in Delhi, Morroco, Nairobi, and alot of other fascinatng world destinations.
For those tourists that want a package vacation, Colombia is simply not the best place (yes I know there is a DeCameron in San Andres and the other "resorts"... ).

On the other hand you have informed tourists who have travelled elsewhere in south america, learned the ins and outs of the cities, explored the culture, picked up a bit of the languages before going and and on the road,and still enjoy exploring and visiting those places. Those are the types of people who would have a ball enjoying Colombia, and would be far less likely to have problems that other side of the spectrum will have.

Colombia is a gem, but tourists seeking the same as home need not apply, rather they should be south american saavy and prepared for it.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 10, 2005, 11:12:

I'm with Hollywood on that. I generally don't like tourists. I don't like the tourists that show up here in NYC that are now catered to more than the people who live and work here (grrrrrrr) and I don't like them in Colombia or anywhere else I see them. I found I have much more in common in Bogota with the locals.
BUT I hardly think that pedophilia is gonna increase with tourism. Lucia or somebody else, show me some hard numbers on that. The only hard numbers I have seen were from Brazil, and the vast majority of underage prostitutes were not anywhere a typical tourist would go, they were in the Amazon region and serviced Brazilian men pretty much exclusively. I think every country already has its own stew of pedophiles brewing.

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Colombiche says on Nov 10, 2005, 11:17:

This is so silly Many gringos here seem to agree that Colombia is a place to stay away from unless you have a sweetheart there. Is that all Colombia is good for? To produced world class wives???

I don't understand. Most foreigners that visit Colombia, enjoy the experience and come out unscathed. If you are not an imbecil, If you are open minded and have common sense, you will find the experience enriching.

I can't believe the things you read around this place, "what's wrong with marrying a colombiana", "are all colombianas jealous freaks", "will I get shot for having green eyes"...

How about a lesson on culture and geography? I am so surprised at the utter ignorance of some people!

Beaches on the caribbean, islands on the pacific, amazon jungle, easter plains, mountain peaks, precolumbian ruins. Big metropolitan cities and lovely architecture. Everything that latin America offers all packed into one country. Probably the only country in Latinamerica that has all these things packed into one. The country is undergoing internal strife, but I am so tired of all the dirt that gets thrown on the face of Colombian people! The majority of us are good, intelligent, law abiding, kind people, I don't know why we have to go around repeating that like a MANTRA, I think we hear so many negative things we just have to keep repeating it.

How can you guys dismiss that? How can you guys sit here so arrogantly tearing appart a country that has welcomed you humbly with open arms? I don't understand. That is so uncourteous.

I have truly enjoyed posting at PBH, have met some wonderful people, but I find this so depressing and discouraging, so ONE SIDED, that it is just really beginning to drain my energy.

I have seriously tried to share my experiences, portray Colombia from the eyes of a Colombian expat who is lucky to be bicultural. I am honest about the good, the bad and the ugly. I even crack jokes half the time to keep things lively, but reading these comments is too degrading even for a tolerant Colombian.

I never thought I'd be saying this too (echoing the words of so many others), but heck I need a break from this place.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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lockheed says on Nov 10, 2005, 11:19:

I heard from Dominican man that in the D.R. once a girl reaches 15 the man considers her already old.
What about that Colombian guy they caught in Colombia that confesed that he raped and killed between 40-50 children all little boys, but they are talking around 100 and so but they got him confessing about half.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 10, 2005, 11:33:

Personal safety and relationships According to my highly unscientific survey, these two topics require liberal use of a B.S. filter.

I wanted access to health care, housing and education, but, no, I get potholes, trash and silicone tits instead. -Desi.

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Hunter says on Nov 10, 2005, 11:35:

GIB Wherever you go in the world, unless you buy your own private Island, you will bump into foreigners, thre are plenty of places to go in Colombia now and in the future where you will only see the odd foreigner, I don't think Bogota will one of them.

Hunter

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Albatross says on Nov 10, 2005, 12:05:

Paradise Lost... As much as people may bitch about "Tourons", their numbers will only increase (unless some sort of global pandemic causes travel restrictions). The internet, air travel and population boom have sealed the fate of just about every remote destination on the planet.
So enjoy your secluded beaches and villages while you can.

And just think, the Chinese and Indians have barely begun to travel...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 10, 2005, 12:08:

Agreed Colombiche I couldn't have expressed the dissapointment factor better myself. Colombia does have tons going to for. The geographical and natural diversity, the rich history and culture... all packed into a little place.

Clearly many of the these PBHers are not fans of Colombia. Funny how they all flock to a website about Colombia.

Funny also how so many of these people ignore genuine pleas for information about Colombia by those about to go. I've reposted a few questions from people going and all they seem to get is a few half-assed answers from these "fans of Colombia" people who would rather spend time whistling at a girl who had plastic work.

Aveces pienso como seria de distinto un foro donde todo los participantes tendrian que ser de origin Colombiano, o haber vivido alla al menos de dies anos. Que se vayan para el c____ esta gente que solo pueden ver Colombia en sierta luz.

Gotta love the pampered world. The "safety" reality of Colombian cities is on par with how most of the world lives (excluding many of the cocoon portions of North America and Europe). Don't freak out, get over it, use precuations, embrace it, and enjoy what it has to offer.

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 10, 2005, 12:11:

Bull Albatross "The internet, air travel and population boom have sealed the fate of just about every remote destination on the planet."

I spent 5 days travelling last month, and I saw a grand total of 3 people outside of my party. Secluded will exist for a *long* while yet, but only those ingenious enough to find it deserve to enjoy it.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 10, 2005, 12:35:

You know, if I ask my COLOMBIAN stepchildren and my COLOMBIAN wife if they think that tourists without a family connection should visit Colombia, they say no. They say that there is simply too much opportunity for trouble to have unsupervised tourists wandering around the country. There is a civil war going on and normally war zones are not considered suitable for tourists. Would you recommend a trip to the Sudan?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Nov 10, 2005, 12:36:

Yep Adrimm You pretty much summed it all up.

Si tienen tanto problema con Colombia, entonces que se queden en su casa y no vallan a joder alla y luego a hablar mal del pais. Que se vallan a un foro que hable de Europa, o de Canada o de Puerto Vallarta si tanto les disgusta Colombia.

I follow you lead, I'm taking a break from this place as well (and letting them take a break from me for that matter). I invite other people who feel as we do to do the same thing.

I can't sit back and read all this crap anymore, especially when it is directed towards my country, my culture and my people. If anybody said anything half this bad about the US, these patriotic Americans would have a fit and start throwing virtual hand grenades at us.



ps: UC, Sudan and Colombia are two very different situations. Mass ethnocide, vs internal political instability. Sudan is a far more destitute country, how can you even compare?

I certainly would not hesitate to visit Egypt in spite of all the tourists that have been targeted there.


Hasta Luego..

Colombiche.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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EdH says on Nov 10, 2005, 12:58:

See you! Colombiche!

How did we get to here?

I think the original post was about 2 Italians that where murdered. Personally I want to hear this sort of news because it helps you see what the dangers could potentially be if you are not careful. Probably these people were quite stupid but you never know the whole truth.

If people don't like foreign travellers in Colombia, okay, I guess I for one won't be meeting those sort of people. I can understand that when you make a effort to fit in somewhere and see loads of people pitch up who obviously don't really care about the place but just want to party or something it could be very annoying. Cusco and Peru has become a bit like that.

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El Jefe says on Nov 10, 2005, 13:13:

Ho-hum Colombiche Why do posts on this site always devolve into discussions of sex or people spouting petty nationalisms (hardly just an US trait)?

The vast majority of posters on this thread have not disparaged Colombia, quite to the contrary, they are fascinated by it. Colombiche, you do us a great disservice by generalizing about all Americans, or gringos, for that matter.

You are behaving in exactly the same way that you claim "these patriotic Americans" act - first you insult a group of people, then you say how great your country is, then you leave. That's not discourse, that's kindergarten. You are just contributing to the behavior you say disgusts you.

I encourage you to stay, converse with cool people, and ignore the ones who insult you and your country. Their opinions don't matter, anyway - this is supposed to be the "Friendly Talkzone" after all.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 10, 2005, 13:22:

"internal political instability"? Let's call it what it is. It's a civil war in which innocent bystanders can easily be caught up in the violence. I like Colombia and I enjoy my visits but I am never allowed to wander around loose. That's one of the reasons I like Monteria, the relative freedom that I am allowed to enjoy there. Not so in Medellin.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel says on Nov 10, 2005, 17:45:

¡No me digas! Que lastima que no tengo familia en colombia; yo solo tengo amigos y amigas allí...entonces, segun de este "thread", tengo que quedarme en casa. What a crock of shit.

"There is nothing lower than the human race...except for the French." - Mark Twain 1878-79

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 10, 2005, 18:44:

Maybe i'm naive But I thought they were being ironic...Like: Nobody come here!!! ( so they can keep the pardise and the women to themselves).

Anyways If they don't like things about Colombia, let them! Part of learning a culture and loving it means feeling like you have the right to criticize too. I remember bad-mouthing tourists when I lived in Paris and they would stumble around in long lines...

Plus as a Colombian, I have to admit there are millions of things to criticize here. Its not just two oceans and jungles, and bla bla bla...

plus, I don't like millions of things about the States or many of the countries I have lived in and nobody is going to take that right away.

Generally I agree with two of my favorite girls on this site, but this one time, I think it wasn't as bad as they felt it.

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calipro says on Nov 10, 2005, 20:50:

UC, How long have your wife and step kids been in the States? "You know, if I ask my COLOMBIAN stepchildren and my COLOMBIAN wife if they think that tourists without a family connection should visit Colombia, they say no."

It took my wife 4 years of brainwashing before she was to afraid to return to Colombia.

She really believes that they are going to steal her implants. LOL !!

She would probably be afraid of the FARC also but her family lives in Cali and not in the country side.

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carter says on Nov 11, 2005, 00:43:

Im a foriegner here for 2 years I have no family here, never came for love, am not in love and not here for the drugs. You people that say that those without family shouldn't come to Colombia, that think this is all Colombia has to offer don't know the Colombia that I know.

Its quite sad then when you claim yourselfs experts on the country without having any real understanding for the people and culture.
If you can find no other reason to be here than family then take your families and go

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kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 04:57:

Exactly Carter. Even though my wife is from Colombia and part of her reason to visit this last time was to visit family, my reasons were to see the country. Albeit as it was my first journey I stuck to the touristy things, but I promise my next visit will be slightly more adventurous, although tame my most standards. One of my interests in travel is of course the food, but my other interests include architecture, design, local manufacturing, plant life etc. If I had the money and thus the time I have a list of countries a few miles long that I would love to visit, very few of which I or my wife have family in (although being British it seems I do have family all over the place). As I said in my travel blog

www.gringoincolombia.com

 

Colombia was not my initial choice, the weak dollar and the fact that my wife wanted to show me her city were the primary reasons for the visit, but I can assure you that my return visits will be because I didn't see enough on my first visit. There are lots of people who travel to Colombia because they are twitchers, or because they are interested in Spanish colonial architecture, some like plant life, there are many reasons to visit Colombia. Perhaps many who just go to meet women end up returning time and time again for the women, but I suspect many return because they enjoy the country and culture. Some such as GIB and Rubiazo are looking for something that was missing in their lives or to escape the rat race. Old Gringo is a true escape artist and if I was single I would end up near a beach, broke, but happy!

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 11, 2005, 06:45:

I am not an expert, Carter, which is why I rely on the knowledge and opinions of my wife and her family. What I love are gringos who spend some time in Colombia and then think they know more than the Colombians themselves. And I think being married to a Colombiana and having three Colombian stepchildren, I know a little about the people and culture.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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cochopechocho says on Nov 11, 2005, 06:57:

Listen up you fools...... My wife and kids is from there and they say it's just to darn dangerous fo you white boys to be heading off down there alone. Thank god my wife met me at the airport or I probably would have been killed my first day in Medellin.

There is FARC in them there hills and they ain't playing no games.

I saw some people staring at me once while I was there and I told'em "Don't mess with Texas" and those dumb ignorant bastards thought I said "Doña mécete tetas".

I'm lucky I got out of there alive and I won't go back unless this wife runs away and I have to get me another one.

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kernow62 says on Nov 11, 2005, 07:01:

ja ja, that was good cochopechocho. Good sense of humour.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 11, 2005, 08:09:

Meanwhile in another thread I am telling the poster that it is safe to travel from Cartagena to Monteria. At the same time some Colombian businessmen are telling Hunter that they consider the road dangerous and they will not travel that road. So who do you believe? The bottom line is PBH is not to be relied on for anything other than its entertainment value.

Let's imagine that the reverse situation occurs, a Colombian comes to the US and they have heard so many bad things in the media about the US that they are not sure what to do? Who or what would they rely on for advice? An internet site with anonymous posters? Fellow Colombians who had only been in the country a short while but who insisted that it was all nonsense and you could go anywhere and do anything? Or someone who had lived there their entire life and had many contacts and sources for reliable information?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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litost says on Nov 11, 2005, 12:29:

UTC, you have a serious misunderstandig of either the situation in Colombia or of terminology, if you insist on calling what's happening there a "CIVIL WAR". It's not some failed state like many african nations divided by regions or factions, or some religious or ethnic split like in the balcans or the likes of Afghanistan or Irak.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 11, 2005, 12:42:

Colombia is not divided into factions? Various parts of the country are not ruled de facto by the ELN, FARC and AUC? I don't think the Uribe government would use the term "civil war" preferring to label their opponents as "terrorists". I would describe it as a low-grade civil war.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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juancegomez says on Nov 11, 2005, 17:34:

... I don't think the term civil war is appropiate either, for several reasons, mostly because it doesn't properly address the complexity of the situation...in that respect, here's a good essay on this precise matter, though obviously everybody can hold different opinions. There isn't one single, universal definition or interpretation about the matter.

"CIVIL WAR? THE LANGUAGE OF CONFLICT IN COLOMBIA"

http://www.ideaspaz.org/publicaciones/download/guerra_civil_english.pdf

Likewise, Eduardo Pizarro Leongómez has a book "Una democracia asediada: balance y perspectivas del conflicto armado en Colombia" that also deals quite well with this in one/several of its chapters.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 12, 2005, 00:14:

UTC If somebody were coming to NYC and afraid of the danger I'd tell them they watched too fucking much TV, and that they should instead worry about the city not being as exciting as they may have pictured it!

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litost says on Nov 12, 2005, 06:22:

Classical cases of civil war are the American, Spanish, Yugoslavian, etc. There were clear divisions among the population, the bands were clearly defined and counted on popular support which fed the respective armies. The total number of troops in the different armed groups in Colombia would be around 50,000 at most, and popular support for guerrilla groups don't account for even 1% of the population. Maybe a little more for the Paras but they're not contesting the ruling State anyways. In any case, the overwhelming majority of colombians accepts the state authority and democratic institutions involved. The armed groups, though relatively small by numbers, can cause a lot of dammage and make lots of noise thanks to sizeable resources and a historical lack of presence of state authority in many regions of the country, plus a topography ideally suited for guerrilla warfare. But for it to be a "civil" war, the "civil" society would have to be involved in each of the factions. This is not the case, rather what we have is a few small very well funded and armed private armies with their own agendas. The civil society is caught in the middle of their struggle for territorial influence and resources, and the government's inability to put an end to it. I think that at most what happens in Colombia could be considered an armed conflict, but more specifically an insurgency and counter-insurgency situation. Calling it a Civil War is an easy way of labeling it and perpetuating the image that Colombia is a per se confictual and violent place... but a grossly inaccurate reading.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 12, 2005, 15:46:

I think there is way more than 1% popular support for the various factions depending on the area. In the areas that the AUC controls, they don't need to contest the "ruling state". They are the "ruling state" because no official can be elected who is not an AUC supporter.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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