A Debt of Honour

miamimike says on Apr 24, 2008, 13:07:

A Point very well made and taken Kalder. Sadly, you don't hear it said often enough,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 24, 2008, 13:10:

Too bad it's getting late here....otherwise I'd have my popcorn ready, because this is going to be a mega discussion.
"I'm in ur base, killing ur doodz

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Apr 24, 2008, 13:14:

Lo unico que tengo que decir es que los Estados Unidos no dan puntada sin dedal.

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slguy says on Apr 24, 2008, 13:17:

who does, kat? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 24, 2008, 13:32:

Depending on how you define national interest, I suppose just about all aid could be said to be aligned with a donor country's national interests. Still, some portion of it IS humanitarian, and when you're talking about large, rich donor countries, and over time, the numbers are not insignificant.

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droble77 says on Apr 24, 2008, 13:39:

I thought Colombia DID reach failed state level back in those days! The book "Killing Pablo" shows how the U.S. helped to finally get rid of that cancer, although it seemed to me the book was quite clear that things didn't really progress until los Pepes in classic Colombian revenge-style killing mode started to bring the hate on Pablo.

And while Plan Colombia has certainly helped big time against the FARC, let's remember that about half that money directly benefits the U.S. "military-industrial" complex. Nothing wrong with that by the way, have no problem with my tax dollars being used like that.

Not sure what you're fishing for Kalder, some kind of gringo discount? ;)

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Mononoke28 says on Apr 24, 2008, 14:08:

I have to agree. The US has helped out Colombia in more ways than one, not only financially to back up the war on the FARC but also with military training.

Diana

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lpdiver says on Apr 24, 2008, 14:16:

"The United States negotiated a treaty with Colombia for rights to build the canal, but the Colombian senate refused to ratify it. Representatives of French and U.S. investors, the railroad, and the U.S. government then conspired with Panamanians to declare the isthmus independent from Colombia. President Theodore Roosevelt, who wanted to make the Panama Canal the centerpiece of his administration, made sure the conspiracy succeeded. When the Panamanians rebelled, U.S. troops prevented Colombian forces from moving in to suppress the revolt. The Republic of Panama became independent on November 3, 1903. "

A great "purchase" for ten to twelve million dollars...no?

Yes quite some debt of honor! Imagine Colombia in a state unaltered by politics.

t

"cook some rice!"

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 24, 2008, 14:26:

The US has also done things like save their coffee crop (and their economy when it was far more dependent on coffee) a time or three - buying up the production during WWII, being the pivotal player during a 1960s price support scheme and providing technical expertise during the 1950s to help eradicate some kind of coffee disease or blight. Agencies like the USGS (US Geological Service) provided machines and scientists so Colombia could learn how to detect/monitor volcanoes and earthquakes and to map their petroleum reserves; NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) provides all kind of weather data; everyone in the world can get a GPS signal for free and so on. There is also a tremendous amount of basic and applied scientific/agricultural/medical and safety research performed in the US (and elsewhere, of course) that aids developing countries in ways that can't be measured but most definitely improves the quality of everyday lives.

The US also (for a number of reasons) doesn't crack down on illegal aliens and allows over $4 billion per year to move from the US to Colombia in the form of remittances. Some of that money was earned tax free and all of it is moved without a transfer tax. That's a pretty big "gift" that keeps on giving year after year. Some academics say it's far more efficient than development aid...

Back to drugs: If I were king for a day with the ability to enforce a "global accounting" I'd use the UN study on drug consumption and make countries give aid to Peru, Bolivia, Colombia and the Caribbean according to their estimated cocaine use. As for heroin, I'd send the entire bill for making a country out of Afghanistan to the Europeans, Russians and Iranians. ;-)

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Medellin Traveler says on Apr 24, 2008, 14:28:

droble77 says, "I thought Colombia DID reach failed state level back in those days! The book "Killing Pablo" shows how the U.S. helped to finally get rid of that cancer, although it seemed to me the book was quite clear that things didn't really progress until los Pepes in classic Colombian revenge-style killing mode started to bring the hate on Pablo."

Who do you think was resposible for the creation, sponsorship, as well as providing support for Los Pepes? The US.... who without, Colombia would probably be controlled by the Medellin Cartel today.

Everyone wants to talk about how safe Colombia is under Uribes administration, but no one mentions how much Uribe owes to the U.S. for many of the drastic changes that have occured in Colombia with U.S. support.

Rubito,
You need to have your head examined if you think Colombia would be better off without the U.S., not that I completely agree with US presence and influence in Colombia.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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Mononoke28 says on Apr 24, 2008, 15:02:

Nice nose.

Diana

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Medellin Traveler says on Apr 24, 2008, 15:39:

Iraq and Colombia are two completely different situations.....

The US had no business invading Iraq, too late now.

Buggy says, "MT when will you put people who do not agree with USA in psychiatric institutions ?"

What you talkin' 'bout Willis?

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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webmanco says on Apr 24, 2008, 15:53:

A debt of Horror

Without creating caos worldwide military armament would not be selling. Colombia without corruption and good management of natural resources, don´t need any kind of fake help.

Colombia don´t need to be thankfull to anyone, there Panama went, thanks.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:00:

Wipe out humans and you'll wipe out chaos and the need for armaments. Until then...

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lpdiver says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:07:

american...

Actually the US DID give compensation to Colombia for basically taking Panama. As I recall it seems to have been about 25 million dollars. Not that I think that justifies anything.

t

"cook some rice!"

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lpdiver says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:09:

What amazes me is that your typical Colombian citizen seems to be completely unaware or just plain apathetic. My own wife was not aware of this.

t

"cook some rice!"

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Medellin Traveler says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:10:

Lets not forget what the U.S. did in Chile as well.....
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

American says, "droble made a good point that 50% of the militray aid is going straight back to USA arms manufacuturers..."

The U.S. government never did anything out of the kindness of their heart.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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lpdiver says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:15:

American the payment was in 1921 as I recall.

t

"cook some rice!"

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:37:

PowWow - you might want to look up terms like 99-YEAR LEASE, PERPETUAL LEASE and SIX MILE WIDE CANAL ZONE LEASE and compare them to terms like OWNERSHIP or TAKEOVER or ENTIRE COUNTRY.

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Morrongo says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:46:

''De Gaulle said that England was the submarine of the USA, patrolling along the coasts of Europa''
Did he say that in the boat over to England or when his arse was 100ft below ground while some of his countrymen were fighting for their freedom,or was it after his country was liberated by the free nations ,which the USA was the main provider....

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Morrongo says on Apr 24, 2008, 16:54:

''what ever you think of chavez he is democratically elected and he allows complete freedom of press with article in newspapers critising him like hell...''
Not true....Complete freedom of press there is not...im not on any political side, just correcting a false statement

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paulr says on Apr 24, 2008, 17:10:

Americans have sold arms to practically everyone they´ve ever fought. Anyone watch this doc http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/zeitgeist.php Very, very interesting, especially regarding the plans of the world Banks

"paulr threatens me with death !" pobrecito

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britabroad says on Apr 24, 2008, 18:45:

It's the same in the UK and Europe. The people are not represented there because it's become "politically incorrect" to do so. The minority and the one's with the money have the say. Crazy isn't it?
There's precious little difference in the UK between the Labour and Conservative parties either, which is why the opposition party is a toothless tiger and why Labour has won 3 successive elections. It's a case of "better the devil you know".
God I'm glad I shit canned England.

Leave the big stick at home...carry a cannon!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 24, 2008, 19:44:

Rubito, They crack down on a tiny fraction of the illegal aliens. Granted, the last two years they've made some noise and pumped up the numbers a little, but it's amazing to me how small the numbers are and how few employers they go after. So whether there are 12 million or 20 million illegals in the country, the fact remains that hardly any of them are ever going to be woken up at 4:30 a.m. I think that tactic fails as a deterrent but maybe it means less trouble in the home when people are sleeping. And if it means some bloated cop doesn't have to chase an illegal down the street, have a heart attack, and go on permanent disability, maybe it's a cost-saving measure to boot. Ha-ha. Anyway, I doubt it's illegal or the government would have been sued numerous times by now.

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miamimike says on Apr 24, 2008, 20:23:

Rubito--BTW, Bush's 2007 Amnesty Plan was doomed from the start because over 70% of the US Public who were polled want Illegal Aliens rounded up and deported and that included Republicans, Democrats and Independents. They(INS) are finally starting to carry out the will of the US Public and that is to close our Borders and admit Legal Immigrants only. A country has to be able to control its borders and for many years, the USA hasn't done that.

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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billyb says on Apr 24, 2008, 21:23:

"This is going to upset a lot of people...but in my opinion Colombia owes the United States a considerable debt of honour."

You will get it, once we get Panama back, you mofos.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and if you throw in venezuela and ecuador, that would be cool also, thanks ;))

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billyb says on Apr 24, 2008, 21:25:

"De Gaulle said that England was the submarine of the USA, patrolling along the coasts of Europa.
More recently, concerning Iraq, Blair was the little dog of W.
And Kalder ? Kalder is Kalder"

Buggy, it is better being the US' dog than, like France, everybody's bitch.

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 04:27:

Everytime I watch 'The Shield' it looks like the Mexicans got California back a long time ago.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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tomtom33 says on Apr 25, 2008, 06:15:

To whom should the US give the large part of Mexico, the Aztecs or the Incas?

Rubi, the ACLU can sue the government for the illegal immigrant.

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aztec says on Apr 25, 2008, 07:03:

american says on Friday April 25th, 2008 6:16:

no to the mexican people as it does not belong to the usa"

This dolt is attempting to start a riot here. Yet no moderator says a word! His imbecilic remarks offend a large number of legal residents in the USA!

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tomtom33 says on Apr 25, 2008, 07:05:

The Mexican people stole it from the indigenous people who stole it from the dinosaurs who stole it from....

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SiV says on Apr 25, 2008, 07:28:

Kalder, do you base your political views on ficticious TV shows now?

Have you seen Barney? It looks like suburbia is being taken over by chubby, homosexual, purple dinosaurs! Our kids are not safe anywhere. Thank God, Superman is out there to save them.

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 25, 2008, 07:30:

Correct. Now the US has California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. And it has been that way for a long time.

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 07:36:

SiV, are you a precious hysteric who has only the haziest concept of 'irony'?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 07:38:

Although you do seem to have a firm grasp of leaden, predictable sarcasm...

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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billyb says on Apr 25, 2008, 08:18:

"and the americans stole america through genocide so you should not be where you are get real we are talking about now"

whoa now charlie, when the genocides occured in the americas, the euros were still in charge, they hadn't got the boot yet. It might help to pick up a history book.

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miamimike says on Apr 25, 2008, 08:59:

American--You should be laying a Lot of the Blame in the Americas at the feet of the Spainards as they took many Lands from the Mayas, Incas, Tainos and other indigenous peoples in the Americas. Look at the carnage the perptrated on the natives, forcing their Religion, Langauge and European customs on them. They looted their Gold, Silver for the Motherland yet you seldom hear the Spainards pillaried as you do the USA, Why is that? Why not heap some blame on Spain? What did they ever do for these countries they conquered by force?

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.

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SiV says on Apr 25, 2008, 09:12:

Here we can see that after over 500 years, the effects of genocides and violence perpetrated by the settlers in North and South America live on. So why is it the most popular solutions to Colombia's conflict are violent?

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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slguy says on Apr 25, 2008, 09:52:

So why is it the most popular solutions to Colombia's conflict are violent?


worked for us, didn't it? ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Albatross says on Apr 25, 2008, 11:06:

... Barney is homosexual ?... who's next, Big Bird... The Teletubbies... Mister Rogers... ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 11:15:

american- It's not whether America is the nice guy or not mate. To me politics is not about the good vs. the bad. It's about the bad vs. the worse. Britain, Australia, the States etc. may be bad; but we're a whole lot more decent, honorable and generous than the opposition...

The US may not be a proactive force for good in the world; but it certainly helps stop it from sinking into global barbarism.

American force of arms is, in good part, the reason why you're not speaking German or Russian. Or your children Arabic.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 11:16:

Barney isn't homosexual. He's a little confused is all.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Frank Rizzo says on Apr 25, 2008, 11:19:

Misunderstood

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 11:20:

It's probably just a phase...

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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billyb says on Apr 25, 2008, 11:38:

"Or your children Arabic."

I don't know Kalder, this last one may yet come to pass ;)

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tomtom33 says on Apr 25, 2008, 11:59:

Let's see, Russia got all of eastern Europe. What territory did the Allies get? And Russia could not have stood up to Germany without US aid.

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billyb says on Apr 25, 2008, 12:13:

Tom don't try to bring logic into this discussion,ok?

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tomtom33 says on Apr 25, 2008, 12:16:

Silly me. Lo siento.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:10:

"...not good at map reading this is a historic fact..."

Damn, this is getting hilarious.

What war or conflict anywhere ever in history was not a series of fuck-ups?

Rubi says that England got 25% of the reward.

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slguy says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:16:

interesting historical viewpoint, powwow. its this sort of reaction from our allies that fuels our occasional groundswells of isolationism. why bother helping, when the folks we help claim they didn't need us?

got a taste for saurkraut and goosestepping, do you? if not, you should be saying thanks, rather than revising history

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:20:

No american- the US troops in WWII were better trained, fitter and better armed than ours were. It's quite possibly the other way round now. But the US fighting machine in the 1940s was perfectly competent in all areas.

Yes, we did run up an enormous debt fighting the War. But without the Yanks to lend us the money in the first place, we wouldn't have been able to fight for more than a few months. I agree that they were treacherous bastards, demanding quick payment of the debt after the War (so quick it bankrupted the Empire- which is what they wanted), but I never said they were saints.

Rubito- I expect the Soviet fighting man was more bitter about having his sacrifices on the battlefield being rewarded by being sent back to the slavery, drudgery and misery of Stalinist tyranny, than at anything the West allegedly received as spoils of victory.

billyb- many a true word spoken in jest. You have a worringly good point.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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sloopskipper says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:21:

american says on Friday April 25th, 2008 12:58:

"to kalder when the US got involved in the 2nd world war they had a very badly trained military because they had no real military tradition of fighting foreign armies"

It was what, 22 years since the other World War, when they fought, and beat the Germans the first time?

"..the germans regarded the american soldiers as the worst soldiers fighting in the 2nd WW."

THEY were so good that they lost the war.

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:25:

american- Noam Chomsky's books are banned in the US? Why is it then that I see them readily available on Amazon.com?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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slguy says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:32:

jajajaja

as usual, kalder, you're correct. we ARE treacherous bastards. we just keep hoping no one else notices. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:34:

Yes, but nice treacherous bastards ;)

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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slguy says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:34:

we ban no books. we simply relegate chomsky's tripe to the kiddie section, where it belongs.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Apr 25, 2008, 13:44:

You're wrong about a lot of things, PowWow. For starters, you should look up "Lend Lease" before you start blabbering about the mighty UK and Russian fighting forces in WWII.

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aztec says on Apr 25, 2008, 14:34:

Amazing! We run off posters like GIB with experience of living in Colombia and yet continue here on PBH with this clown "american". His nonsense is nauseating.

I lost my cool over on the other site and vowed that it would not happen again.

Must admit it is tiresome reading some of the childish uneducated pablum spewing forth from his mind. If all Europeans had similar thought processes North Americans would long ago have given up and retreated behind fortress America.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 25, 2008, 14:43:

Who is the real loon here? We are for trying to reason with one.

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 14:50:

I don't want the US out of Europe. Look at the horrors facing the world- the economic ascendancy of the Chinese slave-state; the millions of death worshipping fanatics who want to restore the Muslim Caliphate; the thuggish tribal nationalism of Putin's Russia; the filthy matrix of international organised crime. No, the Free World needs to stick together more than it's ever done before.

My friend, you're always telling us how ill-informed we are, but if you ask me, all this wooly-headed, fashionable anti-Americanism is the very nadir of naivety. They are not the enemy.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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sloopskipper says on Apr 25, 2008, 15:15:

buggy says on Friday April 25th, 2008 15:00:

"And do not forget the christian fanatics who are in the government of the USA."

Exactly! There have been several recent TV specials, on the major networks, with topics like "Faith in the Election", or something like that. How important is that, really, in choosing a leader? Only in the NEW "America".

Otherwise Pat Robertson might have a chance. :( BOOOOooooo

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kalder says on Apr 25, 2008, 15:28:

I am not ill-informed, if that is your implication. I warrant my knowledge of history is at least as good as anyone else's on this site.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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lampltr says on Apr 25, 2008, 16:46:

Rubito & American, I stand with you guys jeje!!!

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Frank Rizzo says on Apr 25, 2008, 17:39:

Bush = big mistake. I'm far more conservative than these Republican wimps....they should have turned Iraq into glass...pumped out the oil.....its the only thing those people understand. Complete domination.

If we're going to war to just spend money then rebuild the country...whats the point...

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aztec says on Apr 25, 2008, 18:37:

american says on Friday April 25th, 2008 15:16:

"kalder read up on the things america has done please read noam chomsky


God! If I hear noam chomsky one more time I am going to vomit!

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sloopskipper says on Apr 25, 2008, 19:58:

Yep, thanx to Henry J. Kaiser (he also built Liberty ships), and the Jeep lives on:


Kaiser, Kaiser-Jeep, American Motors, Chrysler Corp, Daimler Chrysler, Chrysler Motors.

I'm sure no other car was built by so many different companies (and others built them during the war).

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 04:03:

Thanx, Doc. Foto is on the Atlantic side of Puerto Rico the day I bought her (2001 Wrangler Sport, 4.0L). She is now in Panamá, but visited Cartagena before I did.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 04:26:

Nice pic, sloop. Is that guy you?

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 05:14:

Yeah, sorry, jaja. A lot newer foto than avitar.

I probably should have posted one without the model:

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 07:28:

Cool, thanx for adding me as a friend also.

The Wrangler was perfect in Puerto Rico and here in Panamá too, expecially with water on the streets.

But I saw a real military version from the 40s or 50s in Viejo San Juan and had forgotten how tiny and spindly they appeared, compared to a Wrangler.

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 08:01:

Is a pity that if I would move to Colombia I could not bring mine along.

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aztec says on Apr 26, 2008, 08:50:

"docwilliam says on Friday April 25th, 2008 19:17:

"..the germans regarded the american soldiers as the worst soldiers fighting in the 2nd WW"

*Not true, The 101st kicked butt! And does "Patton" ring a bell?

*True, the US land forces took valuable training from England."

****WWII would not have ended with an Allied victory without the most valuable invention of the day.....JEEP!!! hahahaha"


My uncle was with Patton's division when Patton outran his supply line in Belgium. My uncle was forced to leave his tank when they ran out of fuel. He was killed by a German sniper as he exited the tank. He is buried in the American Military Cemetery in Belgium along with 5328 other Americans. Note there are 7792 other Americans buried in the Cemetery Henri-Chapelle

AMERICAN MILITARY CEMETERIES

Ardennes America Cemetery Neuville-en-Condroz

This World War II cemetery covers 90 acres and contains the graves of 5,328 American servicemen, many of whom died in the Battle of the Bulge. When the cemetery is open to the public, a staff member is on duty in the Visitors' Building to answer questions and escort relatives to grave and memorial sites. Directions: Direct trains from Brussels to Liege (62 miles) run every 30 minutes. Taxis and a limited bus service to Neuville-en-Condroz (45 minutes) are available from Liege.

Cemetery Henri-Chapelle - Hombourg.

In this World War II cemetery of 57 acres, rest 7992 American servicemen, many of whom gave their lives during the advance of the U.S. Armed Forces into Germany. The cemetery is located 2 miles west of the village of Henri-Chapelle, which is about 18 miles from Liege. Directions: Trains run from Brussels to Welkenraedt (23 miles west of Liege). The train station is only a short bus or taxi ride from the cemetery.

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kalder says on Apr 26, 2008, 09:37:

A timely reminder Aztec.

I'm neither American nor right-wing, but I do get exasperated when a certain sort of churlish leftist describes the history of US military intervention in terms of evil plutocrats plotting world domination in their boardrooms, as they puff on their cigars. They seem to willfully ignore the stark human reality of all those young men, their lives cut tragically short, lieing buried in lands far from their homes. Men who gave their lives so that people wouldn't be murdered for their race, beliefs, religion. So that Jewish parents didn't have to see their children eviscerated; so that whole nations weren't pressganged into collectives and gulags; so that communities weren't poisoned gassed on the whim of a butcher; so that kids could eat when warlords were looting the warehouses; so that the innocent were spared the attentions of intelligence services whose personnel were recruited from the ranks of sadists and sexual predators.

Those men gave their lives to keep your kids safe.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 09:42:

damn, kalder. sometimes you can be downright eloquent.....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:00:

It is a hackneyed old phrase, but sometimes “a picture is truly worth a thousand words".

I snapped this unexpected image on a road trip from Limburg to Luxemburg some years ago. Seems the Yank soldiers are well remembered in some places.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:17:

It is nice to know that not everyone in the world hates us murderous, money-grubbing, soulless citizens of the US whose government is intent on world domination and enslavement.

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:20:

(getting even further off topic)

With my Mother-In-Law (aka Sterling Moss) driving her rocket propelled Citroën I was lucky that she slowed enough for me to make that one foto, so we did not visit the cemetery in Belgium.

But, this is displayed at Margraten U.S. Cemetery in the Netherlands:



We had hiked in the Ardennes some years before that, and what an eerie feeling.

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britabroad says on Apr 26, 2008, 10:53:

Wow! Got very heated there for a moment.

So, here we are. A group of reasonably educated (well, we can use PC's and write) people putting forward personal points of view. That's fine. It makes the world go round.
But argueing with each other about historical incidents which occured because of the failings of those miserable, power hungry bastards in DC and London? C'mon! No point in falling out over those idiots. They don't represent us. We're individuals, right?

WW2.
I often poke my nose into these discussions because I feel quite strongly about the subject. I even exercise a bit of "patriotism" myself sometimes, although it's meant in good humour, and is generally received that way.
I don't suppose that any Brit, Yank, Frenchman, Russian, Jap, German, Italian, Canadian, Australian etc etc relished the thought of fighting in WW2, WW1 or any other conflict. If they did, I'm sure that once they'd actually experienced the
shit, their keeness wained a little to say the least. But they all continued fighting anyway because they all beleived in what they fought for, or thought they were fighting for. That's true bravery in my books. Whose got more courage? The rough, tough, psychopathic fighting machine who rushes a machine gun nest single handed, or the terrified 18 year old, whose just seen his best mate killed, yet climbs "over the top" into no man's land?
Wars are started, and perpetuated, by politicians, not the run of the mill man in the street. He actually fights the war while the perpetrators sit on their fat arses giving orders about things that they know nothing about, ignoring military advice, feathering their own nests even more. Always been that way, always will be.
Some wars are just, like preventing an invasion of your homeland. Some are not, like invading poorer countries to enslave a populace for monetary gain. The Brits were very good at that in the past. They were also very good at preventing invasion.
Not meaning to ramble on, the important fact made evident here is that guys like you and me put on a uniform, picked up a rifle and fought and died side by side. Isn't that enough? It should be.
The reasons why, who was better, who fought the best, who needed who more....all that crap doesn't hold water. They did it, and are still doing it, despite of and because of those useless arseholes in power.

Now take a bollocking, shake hands and stop behaving like politicians.

Leave the big stick at home...carry a cannon!

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britabroad says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:03:

"When you go home, tell them of us and say,
For your tomorrow, we gave our today"

Leave the big stick at home...carry a cannon!

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 11:33:

True, Brit. But not all were not all 18 year olds. My father was well into his 30s when he joined and headed to The Rhine, and parts of France.

He was in Blackpool (or Liverpool?) as I guess that was a port where the troops disembarked?

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SiV says on Apr 26, 2008, 12:15:

Wise words, britabroad.

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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aztec says on Apr 26, 2008, 12:42:

This makes me sad.

I must share with you what just happened in our little safe closed community where my wife and I live. My close neighbor last week buried his son who was killed last week on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

We were fortunate to be invited to their Christmas family gathering/dinner only a few months ago. His brother is married to a Colombian from Cali and they wanted us there to help with the language. The whole family was there including his mother, stepmother, brothers and children.(He has two)

It seems strange now because my wife and I sat at the table with the young Marine and his fiancée. My wife sat beside him and myself across from him. In conversation he revealed he had already served two tours in Iraq. I demurred at the suggestion he was returning to the battlefield.

Surely, I told him wasn't two tours enough. His response I will never forget especially since his death hammered it home. His response was that he was a Marine and his men needed him. It was his duty and he was responsible for his fellow soldiers. Furthermore, he believed he was helping the people in those countries. He was eager to return.

His family has paid the ultimate price.

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slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 12:47:

dammit, aztec. you hadda put a human face to the discussion?

thanks for sharing that. i hope we all learned a little something....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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britabroad says on Apr 26, 2008, 12:54:

Sloop, Liverpool was a big embarkation port, and many US troops arrived here too as it's on the Atlantic side of England. It's in Lancashire, where much of the pre~Europe Invasion training took place. And of course you're right. Not everyone was 18, it's just the minmum age that a "man" can be before doing active service. Having said that, there are records of 14 year olds lying about their age so they could fight in WW 1.

Aztec, there it is. That just sums it all up for me. Banter and piss taking is fine, sometimes it's even to be applauded, but you've just summed up the reality of it all.

Kalder, you can come out of your bunker now.
We've all agreed that politicians are arseholes and that Colombia is better off than it's socialist neighbours, whether it's because of those damn Yanks or not.

Quick question for my colonial cousins, where does the word Yankee come from?
I understand it's from the Civil War, but what does it mean? In fact, I'll ask that on a seperate post, not here.

Leave the big stick at home...carry a cannon!

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sloopskipper says on Apr 26, 2008, 13:03:

My father never really spoke of the War, but I remember a overhearing a conversation he had with a Brit in Atlantic City, and he mentioned both cities.

I was searching for a neat foto of him leaning on a signpost pointing to Marsailles, but haven't found it.

Yes, the human face of war is pretty ugly, and unsettling.

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Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2008, 14:09:

docwilliam: Bogotá has a street named after Kennedy because of the Alliance for Peace project he initiated.

Colombia owes nothing to the US. Anything that the US gave to Colombia was out of self-interest. The relationship is a complicated one that at times has been beneficial, while at others detrimental. The US is equally to blame for many of Colombia's problems. In my opinion, it's a silly argument.

billyb: Indians were killed at alarming rates after Independence as well. There is conflict with respect to calling any of it genocide; however, it is not as if such acts were only committed by Europeans. And it certainly did not end the magical day that Europeans became Americans.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2008, 14:32:

They were acknowledged by the UN as being some of the most important and valuable brigades in the Korean War. They were the only Latin american country to send troops. Of course much of their experience was gained from destroying their own people both before and during La Violencia, but yeah, it was interesting that they aligned themselves with the US. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they wanted to smooth things over for originally siding with the Nazis. Not to mention, they have always hated communists ( i.e. the banana massacre in 1928).

p.s. not meaning to condemn them, it is simply an interesting and convoluted history.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:12:

docwilliam: what books have you been reading on Colombian History? I have read a few as well, but I am always interested in learning more and getting different perspectives...

I hope nobody gets offended by my comment above, I'm in the midst of reading a bunch on Colombian history and those things popped up in several books.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:25:

You know the answer, american.

The effort that was made after the WWII with the creation of the UN has basically failed because in spite of the initial enthusiasm and spirit of co-operation national interests and rivalries were soon to overshadow any forms of meaningful international peace-keeping initiative. The US has tried to assume the leadership for peace keeping and "new world order" on our planet but has showed that its engagment has been blatantly self-serving.

I believe Europe learned something from the two world wars initiated in the very heartland of the Old Continent; the creation of the EU unified the the former enemies and rivals, allies and antagonists in a tight economical and political organization that will make it very difficult for any member nations to initiate hostilities against its neighbor. When the process of the unification of Europe is completed I believe the ghost of global war starting in Europe could very well be just a distant memory.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:44:

would you prefer goosestepping?

clearly now you're grasping at straws, amigo.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Lcacique says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:53:

Be careful with the wikipedia...people here swear by it and claim that it is reliable; however, I noticed a few blatnat errors the other day with respect to Colombian history.

american: who in the heck is on this site that fought in WWII?

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:53:

you have my answer...the implication is obvious.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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slguy says on Apr 26, 2008, 15:59:

you're simply being argumentative, powwow. enough, ok?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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kalder says on Apr 26, 2008, 16:11:

american- were you not working tonight? I've been in all evening. You should have come over for a drink.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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billyb says on Apr 26, 2008, 21:40:

Hey Brit, i like you avatar.

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billyb says on Apr 26, 2008, 21:44:

Granting exemptions to those like Kalder, who appreciate the efforts america on demacratic europe's behalf in 2 world wars, the US would be wise to remember that axiom that says that no good deed goes unpunished. And all this while sweden was happily doing business as usual with the nazis.

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Lcacique says on Apr 27, 2008, 10:04:

exactly, doc...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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tomtom33 says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:25:

Apparently not. Want to give it a rest?

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billyb says on Apr 27, 2008, 13:29:

"billy can you answer my Qs
Q AFTER THE 2ND WW IS THE WORLD A PEACEFUL AND SAFER PLACE
plus
Q DO YOU THINK THE PEOPLE THAT FOUGHT IN IT AND DIED IN IT BELIEVE IT WAS WORTH FIGHTING FOR...IF THEY COULD SEE THE WORLD AS IT IS TODAY'

American, please tell us that you are not daft enough to think that the alternative, IE: hitler ruling europe would have been preferable.

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billyb says on Apr 27, 2008, 14:19:

It's too daft a question to even give it the credit of an answer.

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aztec says on Apr 27, 2008, 16:43:

american, in my world you would not be tolerated. You would be dismissed. Your opinions worthless and indeed perhaps ridiculed. No one would have anything to do with you and would be embarrassed if you were in attendance. Ostracized from my society as an undesirable almost as the proverbial untouchable.

Have you found here on PBH the only source for an expression of your distorted view of the world? Are you a member of any social intellectual community where you can share your views of the world? If so please share their format.

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kalder says on Apr 28, 2008, 04:24:

I agree. Orthodoxies should be questioned. Including the largely unreasoned and naive anti-Americanism which is so fashionable these days.

But God only knows why you bring out so much spleen in some people. You're only stirring up debate.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 06:03:

Yes, its true! Colombia would be nothing but narco terrorists if it was'nt for the U.S. Not that Colombia is'nt too far off as it is.

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Lcacique says on Apr 28, 2008, 07:56:

This is an honest question:

What is anti-americanism?

I have heard so many people throw the term around. For example, if you question the war, you are anti-american. To me, that sounds more like what you'd expect in Stalinist Russia not the proudly democratic United States.

In my opinion the term "anti-american" is straight out of 1984, designed to limit what is acceptable to talk about and/or debate. But I just supported my argument with an anti-american book so...ah...forget it.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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slguy says on Apr 28, 2008, 08:10:

interesting observation, LC.

i've always tried to remember that there's usually a disconnect between a people and their government. sometimes i succeed, sometimes not.

i certainly understand the current groundswell of folks who feel anti-american - we elected this idiot, twice. (yea, i voted for him twice, out of sheer "lesser of two evils"). now, i can't even keep a straight face while trying to defend him.

the sad note in this for me is - no entity on earth champions democracy more then we do - but this is the best we can come up with? not a shining example of our ideals, is it?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 08:36:

Anti-Americanism has nothing to do with questioning or even harshly criticizing the American government or its people. Bitching and complaining is very American.

When some groups of people, domestic and foreign, maintain that the US is out to fuck and enslave the world, that is Anti-Americanism.

When Rev. Wright says that the US government invented the AIDS virus to annihilate the black race, that is Anti.

When domestic and foreign groups pillory our President unfairly, that is Anti. George Bush is no Abe Lincoln, but he is a decent man who tried his best. He was born, as Ann Richards used to say, with a silver foot in his mouth. But I'll take a Dub over an amoral Nixon any day.

When people equate support for Israel to the slaughter of people in the WTC, that is Anti. When they maintain that the people who worked in the WTC had it coming, that is lunacy.

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Lcacique says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:11:

tomtom33: the aids statement made by Reverend Wright is one of the few I have heard him make that I disagree with...however, at the time this was an idea that was in circulation. Was it anti-american? Absolutely not, in my opinion. Given the Tuskegee Experiments I think African Americans are perfectly justified to have fears of such things. Clearly, it is irrational in the AIDS case, but not anti-american.

I'd rather live in a world without Bush and Nixon. Bush brought it on himself by being so arrogant. Clearly there are others in his cabinet that deserve part of the blame for the mess we are in; however, slamming the President in my opinion is not anti-american. Clearly, some attacks are unjustified, crude, and disrespectful. With respect to who is better between Bush and Nixon...lets wait thirty years when the Bush tapes are declassified to decide.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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Lcacique says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:13:

slguy: I absolutely agree.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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dwr says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:23:

The debt of gratitude is owed for saving Colombia from Farc and Pablo? Isn't it the Americans lust for cocaine that created these problems in the first place?

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:37:

Its mutual. Colombians like selling cocaine. Americans like buying.

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:41:

It is called supply and demand...legalize it n tax it.

t

"cook some rice!"

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SiV says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:45:

Agreed, morphus. It's called free market economics. Supply and demand. I'd've thought all those neo-liberals out there would embrace the get-up-and-go initiative of the Colombian drug cartels!

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:57:

Yeah, legalize cocaine and let people take it at their own risk. Even coffee can kill you. Read this:

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20060815/coffee-may-trigger-he...

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 10:58:

What about crack cocaine? Should it be legal? If cocaine is legal, people will be able to cook up there own crack.

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:01:

Sure. Why not. If you are stupid enough to want the stuff, of legal age, and have been through an educational class. I would legalize everything.

t

"cook some rice!"

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:08:

Yeah, stupid people deserve to die :)

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dwr says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:16:

Common Morphus. You knock down a few bongs in the morning and a few lines after a night of drinking. Don't you?

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 11:19:

Never tried!

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Lcacique says on Apr 28, 2008, 12:08:

Cocaine is 100% a US problem. Without the huge demand for the stuff Colombians would not be selling it. Without the illegality of the drug, it would have very little value and Colombians would not be selling it.

Colombians do not enjoy selling cocaine, they enjoy making money. If everyone in the world wanted guanábanas (don't understand why there isn't a huge demand, they're great!!!), and the price of guanábanas was inflated to ridiculous heights as a result of US-enforced prohibition of the fruit, Colombians would be smuggling guanábanas. Imagine the mules smuggling this:

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 12:22:

Lc you have to have both sides of the equation my friend.

t

"cook some rice!"

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kalder says on Apr 28, 2008, 12:51:

Good point.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 13:14:

"Cocaine is 100% a US problem." I didn't realize that no citizens of other countries, including Colombia, used cocaine. You learn something new every day.

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 13:14:

Teens have absolutely no problem getting drugs. However, I will concede that there would be an exchange of problems. Overall for the better or worse...I think it would be for the better. Just look at the number of people in prison most of them on drug charges. Also look at the vast fortunes wasted on the "War on drugs".

t

"cook some rice!"

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lpdiver says on Apr 28, 2008, 13:33:

American...YOU have to understand...DRUGS ARE EASILY AVAILABLE IN THE US AND UK!!!!

In fact they are MORE available because they aren't regulated.


t

"cook some rice!"

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 13:41:

I am all for legalization. And it would seem that it would be easier to control the distribution. Limit the supply tightly. Except for underage kids, where is the market for resale when you can get it for a very reasonable price?

I'll never see this, but it would be a win-win. Make treatment services available as well. If you want to blow your mind, and you are over 18, go for it. Just don't kill me trying to get your drugs.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 13:50:

Rubi, I have never met an American who thinks that his/her country has done everything right. Do those people exist in New York? They certainly do not exist in the upper Midwest.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 14:06:

I do not disagree about getting on the government. Where I am coming from is that I have done that stuff for 40 years. It is your turn now. Go get 'em.

I need me a hooker.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 14:17:

I have no problem with Wright rousing rabble. What I do have a problem with is voting for a member of his congregation for President. The chickens are coming home to roost.

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morphus says on Apr 28, 2008, 15:28:

"DISGUSTING alliances with Israel"

Israel would be gone in week without U.S. aliance.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:28:

The Jewish lobby says we care. Plus Israel is a stable democracy. And if Iran gets too close to nukes, the Israelis can handle it.

And last I heard, they were there before the Palestinians.

Unfortunately the world is our business. Heavy is the head that bears the crown.

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tomtom33 says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:36:

What happens everywhere in the world is everyone's business. It just keeps getting smaller.

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aztec says on Apr 28, 2008, 16:38:

tomtom33, you have more endurance than I have. I don't think you will make even a small dent in the thinking of those here.

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