1984 Documents Suggest Drug Link To Uribe Family

miamimike says on Dec 10, 2007, 13:29:

A justice minister -- later assassinated -- complained in the 1980s that drug dealing had infiltrated politics, possibly even the Uribe family, documents showed.
Posted on Mon, Dec. 10, 2007Digg del.icio.us AIM reprint print email
BY GERARDO REYES
El Nuevo Herald
Rodrigo Lara Bonilla, Colombia's former justice minister who led a campaign against drug trafficking in the 1980s, once said President Alvaro Uribe and his father were models of how Colombian society had been infiltrated by drug dealers, according to legal documents obtained by El Nuevo Herald.

In a sworn declaration made in 1984, Lara Bonilla's sister declared that he had cited the case of a helicopter that had been captured in a huge cocaine laboratory in the south of Colombia that, according to government information, was owned by the president's father, Alberto Uribe Sierra. He had made the statement just weeks before his assassination by ''sicarios'' from the Medellín Cartel.

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 10, 2007, 14:01:

I'm not surprised. As they say, "where there is smoke....."

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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Rikito says on Dec 10, 2007, 15:04:

Ok...first, this is 1984 folks. 2) The Nueva Herald is a left of left wing newspaper who hates everything about Uribe. Watch Television Uno and see the sophmoric crap they put out.

In 1984 I was caught masturbating in front of my teacher. Does that rule me out for the Minister of Education job?

1984...what kind of shit were you doing then and since huh?

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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Lowell says on Dec 10, 2007, 16:56:

So, I'm to be punished for the errors/life style of my father? Why weren't the Kenedy's roasted? Or were they? I don't remember.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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slguy says on Dec 10, 2007, 17:08:

I'm pretty sure I have a horse rustler swinging around in the family tree somewhere. Should I be worried ?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Lisa Zee says on Dec 10, 2007, 17:20:

Com on you guys!, if it was not for URIBE you would NOT be visiting Colombia, and if you did you would be in great danger. This is the first time ever we have a president that is doing something for Colombia .
Let`s concentrate on what he is doing NOW!!!!!!!!.
(I didnt want to touch this subject before)
Do not believe what you read or watch on TV. Live it, day and day out. see the difference 80`s and .
NOW.

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miamimike says on Dec 10, 2007, 18:22:

Rikito--Nuevo/Miami Herald is hardly a Left wing paper ; read the stories they write about Hugo Cahvez and castro-always extremely critical. Hardly a critical story about Bush/Cheney or any of the 3 Miami Area Cuban AMerican Republican Congressional Reps. Never a critical story about Repub Mel Martinez either.

Lisa--I started Visiting Colombia way before Uribe came into power so the fact he is Prez has(and had ) Absolutely NO bearing on my visiting Colombia. I used my judgement in my travels and never had any problems from the early-mid 90s so with the same judgement, I expect to have no problems now or in the future.I beleive A. Mockus(prior mayor) deserves some credit for improvements in Bogota as well as the Proceeding Mayor.

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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Lisa Zee says on Dec 10, 2007, 19:12:

Querido miamim, para que esa mala propaganda???what do we accomplish???

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miamimike says on Dec 10, 2007, 19:38:

Lisa-this was an article printed in the Miami Herald, not some National Scandal rag of a paper. Is it Propaganda? I don't know,, There are always two sides to a Story, both in Politics and in Love,,,He said she said and the truth??? Probably somewhere in Between,,,We can accomplish a lot looking at both sides of an Issue. This is also what is done in any court of law(usa) to insure fairness,,,

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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Lisa Zee says on Dec 10, 2007, 19:51:

But he is doing a good job NOW!
I do not understand why some people do not like him? remember (before you guys quote me).
HE IS DOING A GOOD JOB.

What would anyone be saying if we could not drive in the country, drive to Bogota from Medellin, like it use to be?!

Every time I went home, my sister would say. "esta tan peligoso aqui, atracando robando, secuestrando" and NOW, I go everywhere I want.

My point is, we don`t gain anything by publishing this dear!.

Why bring this article from the 80s.

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Colombiche says on Dec 10, 2007, 20:08:

Six degrees of separation Miami mike. Everybody in Colombia knows somebody who knew somebody who did business for don Fulano or el capo Don Zutano. Heck, if you did legit business in medellin during the 90's, with all that drug money circulating, some of it went in your pocket It does not mean they were necessarily directly involved with any of the narco trafficking per se.

This stuff is being published to do harm. Amarillistas.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 10, 2007, 20:19:

The real purpose of this kind of trash is to remind people in Colombia not that Uribe's father might have been connected but, rather, that Uribe's father was rich and they owned helicopters. Class warfare.

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john_stark says on Dec 10, 2007, 20:50:

I am just shocked by these revelations. Imaginate!

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 10, 2007, 21:00:

Yep, a person in Colombia that can't name a relative, a friend, an associate, an acquaintance, etc. who was in the drug business is like an American who says they have never met a person who has smoked marijuana or snorted cocaine. I am sure there are exceptions, but they would be VERY rare I imagine.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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Sam Salmon says on Dec 10, 2007, 21:06:

Old News, old, old, old, old........

' a la orden!'

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miamimike says on Dec 10, 2007, 22:22:

Lisa-to my knowledge I never said Uribe wasn't doing a Good Job! Is he perfect,,,NO, He is human and makes errors like any mortal!

"What would anyone be saying if we could not drive in the country, drive to Bogota from Medellin, like it use to be?! "
--------------------------------------------------

In 94 I hopped on a Flota and traveled from Bogota over the Andes to Cucata! Spent 2 weeks in this Trip, stopping along the way, a couple days here, a day at some other little campo. Cucuta, Not exactly a secure city then and to this day, still not secure by anyone's Standards, unless your'e a card carrying member of the Farc. On this Trip, otherwise then getting sick from a crazy Bus ride and lack of Oxygen in the Andes, I never had a moment's trouble. Fate, who knows! Uribe had absolutely Zero influence on the safety of my trip.If it wasn't for Plan Colombia's Massive influx of US Money in later years, the overall security of Colombia would probably be where it was in the 80s-90s. I beleive if this Plan Colombia $$$ wasn't flowing into the country, Uribe's Allegiance to us would be questionable at best. In those Photos taken at the new Argentine's Swearing in Ceremony Today, Uribe was photographed schmoozing with Morales, Chavez, Kirschner, Lula ect. He didn't seem to be avoiding them and a lot of smiling faces were observed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Article was from the 80s? And you mean we can not learn from History?? To understand the present and future you must understand the past. Hardly a Day passes something isn't published here in the USA(on our past) that doesn't always present us in a positive light but does that mean it shouldn't be published or Aired on the News? This usallly happens in countries with Freedom of the Press. What matters is whether we learn from it as a country.Racism/ Race Relations comes to mind here in the USA and we still are learning,,,In Chile and Argentina, they are still finding Nazi Holdovers from WW2 who have lived quitely in Exile for 50 years, if it wasn't for some Investigative Reporters in many Cases following Leads and outing them, they would lived their lives out nicely without being brought to justice and standing trial for their War Crimes.Other crimes from way back when in Chile and Argentina(Dirty war ect) are still be uncovered. Doesn't matter it happened in the 40s, 60s, 70s, 80s ect,,,

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"This stuff is being published to do harm. Amarillistas"

Colombiche--Respectively, I agree to disagree.

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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Albatross says on Dec 11, 2007, 05:33:

Lisa Zee - "Com on you guys!, if it was not for URIBE you would NOT be visiting Colombia..."

Actually, I was going to Colombia when Pastrana was President... he used to spend Semana Santa in Cartegena, and I happened to be walking around the old city one day when he and his entourage walked by.

Rikito... hope your teacher was good-looking at least.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Rob77 says on Dec 11, 2007, 05:45:

Uribe's performance as a President has nothing to do with whether he was involved in drug trafficking or paramilitary crimes before being elected. He may be doing a great job, certainly the best job of any President in recent times. But, that is no excuse to silence the information available about his activities.

I watched a video online not long ago showing Uribe during his first election campaign, where he attended a rally of a paramilitary group. They gave speeches saying they would support him and when he was elected they would work together. At the end, he shook hands with people who are now identified as active paras wanted for genocide, etc.

Should I not mention this because Uribe is doing a good job???

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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billyb says on Dec 11, 2007, 06:44:

"But, that is no excuse to silence the information available about his activities."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the article doesn't mention anything about HIS activities.

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Rob77 says on Dec 11, 2007, 07:04:

The article does refer to HIS activities: "once said President Alvaro Uribe and his father were models of how Colombian society had been infiltrated by drug dealers . . ."

However, I was commenting on some of HIS other activities.

You stand corrected.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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billyb says on Dec 11, 2007, 07:09:

"once said President Alvaro Uribe and his father were models of how Colombian society had been infiltrated by drug dealers . . ."

And what specific "activity" are you quoting here? Check out the difference between "activity" and "allegation" in the dictionary.

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Rob77 says on Dec 11, 2007, 07:43:

billyboy, you ask to clarify if the article mentions Uribe's activities - it does. You don't like the answer and you change the subject to whether the article is fact or allegation - clear case of denial.

Here is some "alleged" Uribe activities:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=clCQBTgYGdk&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j1BdZmHhUxQ

I'm not out to get Uribe, like some serious commie posters here. But I also don't like to see facts white-washed just because Uribe is the first Colombian President to actually do his job in decades.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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slguy says on Dec 11, 2007, 10:36:

I'm always intrigued by folks who use benchmarks other than performance in office as measures of success.

If Uribe conspired to commit murders in office, or knew of specific crimes and the perpetrators without doing his duty as president in pursuing prosecutions, he should be held accountable, of course.

For example- I could care less about Bill Clinton getting a BJ in the Oval Office- until he lies to a grand jury about it. Then, he's committed a crime. No matter what he lied about, lying to a federal grand jury is a crime. Absent this crime, I would be the first to admit that he was a capable president, in many ways.

Maybe I'm just a naive gringo- but it escapes me how so many people like to be critical of Uribe, but in the same breath admit how much more secure Colombia is, because of his presidency.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Rob77 says on Dec 11, 2007, 10:49:

I can't speak for others. There is no doubt he is actually accomplishing some of the goals he set out early on. But, as you say, if he is guilty of crimes, unrelated or not, he should also be held accountable.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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billyb says on Dec 11, 2007, 13:01:

Again, what specific crimes is he guilty of??

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Colombiche says on Dec 11, 2007, 15:33:

Nooooo gib, all those drugs get into that States through hidden tunnels and in people's bellies. The big shipments? A fluke of course, not like anybody is getting paid to look the other way.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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slguy says on Dec 11, 2007, 16:00:

One night a few years ago down in the Keys, I had a LONG conversation with a military guy who was based temporarily down there doing drug survelliance on an AWACS.

Ho told me they see FAR more incoming cigarette boats, etc, than they ever chase- simply because they don't have enough assets to run 'em all down.

The "war on drugs" is nothing more than political posturing. No one with a brain believes the drug problem can be curtailed on the supply side- either on American OR Colombian soil.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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john_stark says on Dec 11, 2007, 16:18:

They're all corrupt. I bet Bush and Cheney snort more blow in a week than most people do in a year.

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juancegomez says on Dec 11, 2007, 19:24:

This more than deserves to be in P&W and not FT, I think...but that's just me.

Still, as is almost always the case, the article in Spanish is superior to the English version.

http://www.elnuevoherald.com/noticias/septimo_dia/story/128221.html

As for the actual content....the helicopter story is very old news, though a certain number of people would be interested in knowing that Alberto Uribe Sierra himself (Uribe's father) had died before Tranquilandia and before Lara Bonilla's murder. It's hard to conclude that he was involved in his murder.

Other than that, I believe Uribe should answer for his own activities, not those of his family unless he was actively participating in them.

Rob77 :

Posting those links just like that is rather misleading, considering exactly what is being talked about in the article here, which has little to do with it. I think billyb does have a point, in essence.

The article isn't talking about what you linked to, and it doesn't quote anything to support the specific statement that Lara Bonilla once said "President Alvaro Uribe and his father were models of how Colombian society had been infiltrated by drug dealers".

The first paragraph makes this claim, but it doesn't follow it up, and instead goes to talk about Uribe's father and the helicopter, not about Lara Bonilla specifically naming Alvaro Uribe Velez. There might be other information supporting the claim, but the article doesn't show it to us.

As for the videos, the stuff in there has been discussed before. That's not a "paramilitary rally", btw. Apparently paramilitary personnel were indeed present in a campaign meeting, but they never identify themselves as such on the video footage of the meeting, claiming to be "civic leaders" instead.

In the end, it's not clear whether Uribe knew or didn't know who those people truly were. The Herald originally revelead the footage and even they admitted this.

I believe he *should* have known, and if he didn't that's not exactly an excuse, but actually something worth condemning and an act of irresponsability and/or opportunism. If he did know, of course, that's one more reason to stand against him.

I'm all for questioning Uribe, I've never voted for the guy, but I think the details do matter, and they often get lost in these discussions.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 11, 2007, 19:27:

slguy, you were just down in the Keys? I am jealous. I love it down there. When I lived in Homestead I would use every excuse I could come up with to take US1 south a 100 miles or so. You can sit in a bar in Marathon, and be next to a government spook, an out of work fisherman, and a multi millionaire retiree driving an '87 Ford Tempo. There is nothing like the Keys.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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slguy says on Dec 11, 2007, 19:36:

I lived in Marathon on the first sailboat I ever owned, RJ, at Banana Bay- but I had to leave after a couple years. The "Keys Disease" is real. ;) After two years, I was damned near useless professionally. "I can work tomorrow- let's go sailing/fishing/whatever".

juance - I really appreciate the time and diligence you put into your posts. I'm learning a hell of a lot from you.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 11, 2007, 19:40:

Were you living down in Marathon in the mid to late '90s? I have a close friend who lived on a sailboat there during that time. His name is Sam Jones. If you need a major appliance at Sears, he works at the Edison Mall on Cleveland just north of you.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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slguy says on Dec 11, 2007, 19:46:

Umm....late 80's. I'm an old fart. ;)

I appreciate the tip on your pal- but I''m selling stuff now, preppin' to flee the country. jajajajaja

But maybe I'll run up there and tell some sailor lies with him one day! Next to fisherman, sailors are prolly the best liars on the planet.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 11, 2007, 20:17:

Rob77,
Thanks for the video links.

If nothing else, Uribe can be found to be in collusion with the Paras.

I was not a gangmember growing up on the streets of Chicago, but I sure as shit knew who was a gangmember.

I was not in the Outfit, but I damn well knew whem I found myself in the company of the mafia.

Several thing are very interesting in the video.

1. Uribe damn well looks very freakin' comfortable sitting around with them boys.

2. It's not like one guy infiltrated the meeting, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, but there were SEVEN guys present at the town hall meeting. I was very impressed by the gathering looking so official and all,

3. Uribe ain't dumb. How can he? He is the President of Colombia. And with that, he knew who he was meeting on those occasions. Why did he allow a video camera in the room?

4. Colombia needs more polished news reporters. They looked more like thugs then the paras.

John Wanyne Gacy dressed up as Pogo-The-Clown and visited sick children in hospitals and brought them little gifts, why, oh why do they always have to bring up the 33 dead bodies they found under his house?!!

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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juancegomez says on Dec 11, 2007, 20:38:

Medellin Traveler : It was his responsibility to know, definitely, but that doesn't mean he actually *did*. It wasn't a meeting with people from his home turf, that much is clear, so you can't exactly swear that he absolutely *had* to know beforehand. It's very easy to assume that position, too easy for me in fact, but I know things don't always work like that.

Here's what the Herald said when it originally broke the story:

"Posted on Thu, Jun. 14, 2007
Video sparks call for inquiry into Uribe's ties
BY GERARDO REYES
El Nuevo Herald

...

The video, a copy of which was obtained by El Nuevo Herald, does not indicate that Uribe was aware one of the men at the meeting was a paramilitary leader. It appears to be a campaign event, and the dozen or so other participants identify themselves as civic leaders from the city of Barrancabermeja."

http://www.miamiherald.com/579/story/139483.html
(Link doesn't work now, but that was the original address when it did)

More apparent paramilitary leaders or members have been identified later, that much is true, but the Herald itself admitted that the video/audio footage isn't conclusive about what Uribe knew or didn't know. He wasn't President of Colombia at the time either, in 2001.

His possible ignorance is not necessarily a case of being "dumb", it can be a case of being irresponsible and opportunistic, dashing straight into a meeting with self-proclaimed "civic leaders" who offered him support. Not all politicians need to care enough to do what I would expect a decent, reasonable person to do.

But since you're so convinced, I suppose history can always prove you right, in or out of court (for I am 100% in favor of this being investigated by a court, now or in the future, in order to reach a firm conclusion and not just speculative opinions)...or not, who knows.

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Colombiche says on Dec 11, 2007, 20:47:

I love the Keys. The drive from Miami to Key West is magical.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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christobeldawg says on Dec 11, 2007, 20:50:

From the outside looking in, Uribe has, thus far, transformed Colombia, internationally, into a country that is now safe enough to visit, into a place where the cities are mostly secured, where the major travel arteries are mostly secured. He aint perfect, but he has been a very brave and very cutting edge leader.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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slguy says on Dec 11, 2007, 21:01:

Yep - it IS a great drive. Used to be about 7-8 beers. Can't say for sure, now. jajajajjajaja

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 11, 2007, 23:19:

Yep, it is still 7 or 8. 3 hours from Miami, about a 150 miles. 126 from where the Turnpike feeds into US 1. But you probably already know that. When I lived in Homestead, if I had the day off and needed gas, I would drive to Key Largo to fuel up. Gas at that time (1997,98) was about $1.35 a gallon in Homestead. In Key Largo for some wierd reason, I could get gas for $.95 a gallon at the Shell in front of the Holiday Inn. It was a good excuse to get out of Miami for a day trip.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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goin_south says on Dec 11, 2007, 23:26:

Who ever doubted, that Uribe was benefitting from the cocaine trade?
Why you think Colombia has these eternal stand-offs, in the politics???

there... Sr Tertius need say no more.

Where do we go from here?

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 12, 2007, 03:29:

"Who ever doubted, that Uribe was benefitting from the cocaine trade?" - gs

This is something I thought about after visiting Medellin. Where is the money coming from to transform a city, in Colombia, into what wew see today?

I for one, see Cocaine as just another form of drug right next to Alcohol. You have more alcohol related deaths, than cocaine. Alchohol deaths tend to include many innocent people, who get killed by drunk drivers. Cocaine just kills the user, in most cases.

I say, ALL OF COLOMBIA, has benefited from the cocaine trade, not that it's a bad thing.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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slguy says on Dec 12, 2007, 06:40:

Damn, RJ. That's the same time frame I was in the Redland. I left for Puerto Rico in late '98, I think....

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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billyb says on Dec 12, 2007, 06:42:

"I say, ALL OF COLOMBIA, has benefited from the cocaine trade, not that it's a bad thing."

That moronic comment can be forgiven by the fact that you don't know what you are talking about, but you sure do have a penchant for making them.

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juancegomez says on Dec 12, 2007, 08:54:

Medellin Traveler: If you want to generalize like that, without looking at the differences between individuals and circumstances, then all of Colombia has also been hurt by the drug trade. And that is indeed a bad thing.

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Rob77 says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:10:

"juancegomez says on Wednesday December 12th, 2007 8:54:

Medellin Traveler: If you want to generalize like that, without looking at the differences between individuals and circumstances, then all of Colombia has also been hurt by the drug trade. And that is indeed a bad thing."


Reminds me of how I hear so many Colombians generalize that all their problems are due to the US.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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bogjudge says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:32:

I have a question, probably way off topic. Previously in this post appears a comment that the Nueva Heraldo puts out sophomoric crap, followed by a rather astonishing comment that the author masturbates in front of his teacher. I have to wonder if this, uh.."member" does not consider the act of public masturbation at least arguably sophomoric in itself? Just curious dude.

What Lies Over Yonder Horizon?

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Rob77 says on Dec 12, 2007, 13:51:

bogjudge, those type of comments are 'attention-getters', not meant to be substantive. They are the inspiration for the ignore feature, available in this forum.

BOYCOTT CITGO - CHAVEZ SUCKS!!!

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juancegomez says on Dec 12, 2007, 14:51:

Rob77: The U.S. has done both positive and negative things for Colombia, but I suppose nobody in their right mind would say it's responsible for all problems, period.

The drug trade, likewise, isn't responsible for all of our problems and has produced some benefits, but it makes little sense to conclude that "all of Colombia has benefited from the drug trade" without considering absolutely any negatives at all...as if they don't exist.

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bogjudge says on Dec 12, 2007, 15:03:

Well thanks for the tip on the ignore feature and I will just do that in the future. I find most posts in PBH provocative and worthy of consideration.

What Lies Over Yonder Horizon?

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 12, 2007, 15:38:

"I say, ALL OF COLOMBIA, has benefited from the cocaine trade, not that it's a bad thing."

That moronic comment can be forgiven by the fact that you don't know what you are talking about, but you sure do have a penchant for making them." - billyb

Though I may not have all the answers, and am aware their has been many negative affects due to the drug trade.... I at least have an open mind when it comes to others replies to my post. I continue to learn.

At least my comments do not go the route of "prepagos" like so many others who like to hijack threads with talk about how lucky they are for paying for sexo.

There are many sites on the internet dedicated to P$P, why don't they just join and boast somewhere else. There are women on here, and I would like to keep them around, as well an inviting more women to sign up on PBH.

I don't know why the administators don't put a stop to it. Or, the least the posters could start their own thread about P$P.

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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Colombiche says on Dec 12, 2007, 17:22:

"There are many sites on the internet dedicated to P$P, why don't they just join and boast somewhere else. There are women on here, and I would like to keep them around, as well an inviting more women to sign up on PBH."

Quite the gentleman you are MT. I too get tired of having to read those threads (and yes, I do have to read them because I am a moderator).

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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goin_south says on Dec 12, 2007, 19:42:

interesting accounting...
but, perhaps an update, if it's been done before (and, I think it has)....
What's the GENDER RATIO breakdown for visitors/ frequent visitors to PBH?
All time?
the past year?
month?
I think I remember some breakdowns given for colombian, non-col..... etc.

Where do we go from here?

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 12, 2007, 20:34:

I would love to see stats like GS asked about. I do know, when I have Googled certain topics, the first hits were from PBH threads. I would say PBH is pretty damn big. I am humbled and honored to be a part of this community.

It is funny, I have been trying for over a year to find the apparently secret formula for making mecha triangles for tejo. A few months ago I Googled the topic. The first thing that came up was my fruitless thread asking about how to make mechas for tejo.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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miamimike says on Dec 12, 2007, 22:23:

SL Guy says:Maybe I'm just a naive gringo- but it escapes me how so many people like to be critical of Uribe, but in the same breath admit how much more secure Colombia is, because of his presidency.

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SLguy, to be truthful, Uribe is the first guy to reap the Benefits of all the Millions flowing from the USA to Colombia via Plan Colombia. How much is Uribe (peace, improved security) actually responsible for and how much of this can be attributed to our Financial Aid? So the Question remains: is Colombia more secure ONLY because of Uribe or because of the $$$ benefits of Plan Colombia? What happens tomorrow if we, the USA, Pull the Plug on Colombia and our $$ Aid?? Maybe the Chinese will move in to fill the Void,,,

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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christobeldawg says on Dec 12, 2007, 22:25:

hadn't thought too much of that but I do admire his steadfastness in his stance against any element that threatens the security of the people of Colombia.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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juancegomez says on Dec 13, 2007, 05:03:

miamimike:

"SLguy, to be truthful, Uribe is the first guy to reap the Benefits of all the Millions flowing from the USA to Colombia via Plan Colombia. How much is Uribe (peace, improved security) actually responsible for and how much of this can be attributed to our Financial Aid? So the Question remains: is Colombia more secure ONLY because of Uribe or because of the $$$ benefits of Plan Colombia? What happens tomorrow if we, the USA, Pull the Plug on Colombia and our $$ Aid?? Maybe the Chinese will move in to fill the Void,,,"

You do realize that Colombia's defense budget for 2007 ****alone**** ($7 billion dollars) amounts to more than ***all*** Plan Colombia aid to date put together, including the parts of it which have little or no positive influence on security whatsoever (like fumigations in underpopulated rural areas and those which are essentially payments to U.S. contractors and companies)?
Let me quote you someone else's analysis on this:

"Why does the report give U.S. assistance so much credit for Colombia’s improved security conditions?

Let’s take a moment to get a rough idea of how much U.S. assistance has gone toward protecting Colombian citizens. The United States gives Colombia about $600 million in military and police assistance in a typical year.

* Nearly half of that amount goes to the aerial eradication program, in one way or another. (Fumigation planes, pilots, mechanics, herbicide, surveillance, police escort helicopters and their maintenance, the Army Counter-Narcotics Brigade’s efforts to guarantee security for spray operations, with the resulting use of helicopters.)

We know that the fumigation program has failed to reduce the amount of coca grown in Colombia since Plan Colombia began. So this half of U.S. security assistance cannot be said to have contributed to improved security conditions in Colombia.

In fact, it may have worsened security conditions by encouraging coca-growing in many new areas, and by leaving coca-growing farmers angrier at their government after fumigation leaves them with no way to feed themselves.

* About another quarter of that aid has gone to drug interdiction efforts. (Aerial, ground, riverine and maritime, plus efforts to capture drug cartel leaders.)

This has brought a significant increase in the number of tons of cocaine that the Colombian authorities have seized before it can go to the United States. This number peaked in 2005 at just over 200 tons, roughly one-quarter of Colombia’s estimated production, and has since been unable to recover that level.

Interdiction has made life somewhat harder for traffickers, but since the U.S. Justice Department’s National Drug Intelligence Center (NDIC) says it has seen no change in the amount of cocaine leaving Colombia, it has not contributed significantly to Colombia’s improved security measures.

* The remaining quarter of military and police aid - $150 million or so per year, $200 million if we’re feeling especially generous - can be said to have contributed in some way to public security in Colombia. (Building police stations, training rapid-reaction forces in the military [mobile brigades] and police [carabineros], infrastructure-protection, “Plan Patriota�? and other military offensives, the minority of time the helicopters have been used for non-drug purposes.)

Even without evaluating the effectiveness of all of these programs, we can say that the United States has given $150-200m per year for programs oriented in some way toward improving public security in Colombia. That sounds like a lot, but it pales next to Colombia’s own defense (military and police) budget, which will total about $7 billion this year. The U.S. contribution is mere crumbs - one thirty-fifth or one-fortieth - compared to Colombia’s own security effort.

Despite the claims in the CSIS report, the U.S. contribution to Colombian security has been rather marginal. Imagine how much greater the U.S. impact could have been had we devoted most of our resources to something other than ineffective, militarized counter-drug programs."

http://www.cipcol.org/?p=499

Not to mention that even before Uribe came to power, and even before Plan Colombia began, security was already improving as there had been internal military reforms. See this document, for example:

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB610.pdf

So some U.S. aid has indeed helped, but most of it hasn't or has had a marginal effect, which is still very little compared to Colombia's own defense budget (which you can't really ignore if you want to make a serious analysis here, when it adds up to a lot more than all Plan Colombia aid). There's really no way U.S. aid can be considered to be more responsible for most improved security as whole, unless you wave away a lot of things.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 13, 2007, 05:31:

juance, as usual, great post.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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billyb says on Dec 13, 2007, 06:41:

RJ, you took the words out of my mouth. Now we wait for an equally good reply :))

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 13, 2007, 07:46:

Great post Juance. Now, according to the original draft of Plan Colombia, Colombia is committed to pay about 61% of the cost of the plan. What are buying with that money? Are we paying US contractors with that? I thought you may have the numbers, or something close to that.

I've always had the impression the Plan Colombia is a sneaky way for having Colombian and US taxpayers subsidize some of the defense industry in the US. I wonder why Uribe is so adamant about it?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:06:

Sr. Tertius, Why not take it? It's free money, there is a boatload of free training that I don't think shows up in the figures, it gives the military and police legitimacy/cover in the international arena because for 10 years or more they've had to be certified by the U.S. to receive 100% of Plan Colombia and pre-Plan Colombia money, they'd have to buy some of the equipment elsewhere if they didn't get it for free from the U.S., etc.

I've said before that the biggest complaint I have about Plan Colombia is that the Colombian government took way too long to say NO to the aerial spraying programs. Peru and Bolivia said NO a long time ago and they're still offered trade preferences and/or a Trade Agreement. Colombia finally said they didn't want to continue with the same spraying program, but of course they want the same amount of money. If the spraying program costs $300 million then aid should have been cut by the same amount. Instead, we have a $60 to $100 million aid cut (I think that's about right) and Colombia complains about it. Bunch of ingrates. I wish I could do business that way.

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Sr Tertius says on Dec 13, 2007, 08:24:

"Why not take it? It's free money"

I'm not so sure, Tinto. This is as free as the weekend minutes I get from my cell phone plan: Without the plan, I don't get the "free" minutes. So, why not take the "free" minutes? Maybe because I don't like the not-so-free plan.

I'll stop here before I get lost in my own analogy.

I agree with you though: We should've stopped fumigating long ago. I love how Uribe called all sorts of experts on this issue. When they unanimously said "STOP!" he went on anyway. Only when the US cut him some slack did he find the courage to actually stop. So much for the brave Mr. Uribe.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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miamimike says on Dec 13, 2007, 10:13:

Tinto---FREE MONEY?? I have some Dry Florida Swampland to sell you if you think this is "Free Money"! Not free to the US Taxpayers who are in debt for many years who are footing the Bill! Maybe it comes from one those mythical Dollar Trees all North Americans reportedly have in their Back Yards. eh. Shake the tree and the USD falls earthward in unlimited quanities. LOL I would like to see these Billions we have sent Colombia via Plan Colombia, to cease, now that Colombia's Economy is "Up and Running" as many Politicians in Colombia claim. This Money was not meant to continue forever and it looks like a good time to pull the plug. Maybe that will happen after Jan 2009,,,

My Avatar-- Sarah Palin Says " "You know the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom?? Lipstick!" Now on a Short Verbal Tether by the Honorable John McCain

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Dec 13, 2007, 10:20:

MiamiMike - I was responding to a comment from Sr. Tertius immediately above my post. It's free money to the Colombians, with some strings attached, no different than most aid programs. It's been flowing since at least 1994 and I think it's time to close the spigot. Or maybe trade in the fire hose for a garden hose...

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gatogris says on Dec 13, 2007, 10:21:

Now a lot of this stuff from Uribe's past is the stuff of rumour, slander, libel, and general calumny.

He was elected at the tender age of 26 as mayor of Medellín in 1982. But wasn't he removed from office after only three months by a central government embarrassed by his public ties to the drug mafia? So he didn't have time to get too corrupt. Uribe was then Director of Civil Aviation, during a time in which a lot of twin engine Cessna's needed clearance to fly stateside.

In 1995, Uribe became governor of Antioquia department. Didn't he sponsor peasant associations called Convivir’s which he called “special private security and vigilance services, designed to group the civilian population alongside the Armed Forces?��?

According to Amnesty, in the town of San Jose de Apartadó three of the Convivir leaders were also paramilitaries and had been trained by the Colombian Army’s 17th Brigade. In 1998, representatives of more than 200 Convivir associations united with the AUC.

More widely reported in the Colombian news media, when the not-very balanced show Noticias Uno ran a series on alleged links between Uribe and the Medellín drug cartel, unidentified men began calling the news station, threatening to kill the show’s producer Ignacio Gómez, director Daniel Coronell, and Coronell’s 3-year-old daughter, who was flown out of the country soon thereafter. Gómez was also forced to flee Colombia and is currently living in exile. You guessed it, in France.

Noticias Uno claimed that, in 1997, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) seized 50,000 kilos of potassium permanganate from a ship docked in San Francisco. Potassium permanganate is a chemical used in the production of cocaine. The cargo was on its way to Colombia to be delivered to a company called GMP Chemical Products. The owner of GMP was Pedro Moreno Villa, Uribe’s presidential campaign manager. The chemicals seized were sufficient to produce $15 billion worth of cocaine. The DEA confirmed that GMP was Colombia’s biggest importer of potassium permanganate between 1994 and 1998, when Uribe was governor of Medellin and Moreno Villa was his chief of staff.

Now as for all that 'parapolitica' stuff, there's no way Uribe could have known about it.

And all that wiretapping nonsense is just propaganda whipped up by the left.

Just let Uribe do his job.

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juancegomez says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:38:

gatogris:

"Now a lot of this stuff from Uribe's past is the stuff of rumour, slander, libel, and general calumny."

Not necessarily, but it is often treated quite sloppily and selectively.

"He was elected at the tender age of 26 as mayor of Medellín in 1982. But wasn't he removed from office after only three months by a central government embarrassed by his public ties to the drug mafia?"

That's the accusation, which remains to be proven. Also, there were no elections for mayors until 1988. Mayors were appointed and dismissed freely by the central governments, and their terms in office could be ridiculously long or ridiculously short as a result. So much so that several reforms attempting to establish a *minimum* of two years in office were defeated (Could quote stuff from: "Reformas Políticas en Colombia" by Arturo Sarabia Better).

"So he didn't have time to get too corrupt. Uribe was then Director of Civil Aviation, during a time in which a lot of twin engine Cessna's needed clearance to fly stateside."

The question here is not exactly "clearance" on a flight per flight basis, as far as I know, but operating permits for aircrafts, airports and airstrips. It does seem that Uribe's office authorized considerable quantities of such permits, but it also seems that additional requirements were implemented as well (see a relatively recent Aerocivil communique about this specific matter, which was posted in PBH).

"In 1995, Uribe became governor of Antioquia department. Didn't he sponsor peasant associations called Convivir’s which he called “special private security and vigilance services, designed to group the civilian population alongside the Armed Forces?��?"

He openly and publicly promoted them, which carries moral and political responsibilities of its own, but the CONVIVIR were a program created and implemented on a *national* level by the central government (see http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Colom99sp/capitulo-4e.htm ). In other words, he couldn't have "called them" anything, since he didn't create them (but some people keep repeating that).

"According to Amnesty, in the town of San Jose de Apartadó three of the Convivir leaders were also paramilitaries and had been trained by the Colombian Army’s 17th Brigade. In 1998, representatives of more than 200 Convivir associations united with the AUC."

Yes, and it does seem that many (not all) people in Convivir groups were either nothing more than paramilitaries to begin with *or* became paramilitaries later on. Reportedly some 120,000 people were part of Convivirs, all in all, and there were ~414 groups (http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Colom99sp/capitulo-4e.htm).

"More widely reported in the Colombian news media, when the not-very balanced show Noticias Uno ran a series on alleged links between Uribe and the Medellín drug cartel, unidentified men began calling the news station, threatening to kill the show’s producer Ignacio Gómez, director Daniel Coronell, and Coronell’s 3-year-old daughter, who was flown out of the country soon thereafter. Gómez was also forced to flee Colombia and is currently living in exile. You guessed it, in France."

The question is whether these (and other) threats were ordered / decided by Uribe, an Uribe ally or someone else entirely, and what responsibility can be properly distributed to each. Circumstance alone allows for speculation, but doesn't answer all.

Btw, I actually like Noticias Uno a lot, though its coverage quality and quantity varies depending on the subject. Still, it's better overall than Caracol and RCN.

Daniel Coronell also later left the country for a period due to threats, but he, his wife (who's back in her NU role as well) and possibly (not 100% sure) his daughter later returned as well. He still had/has his column in SEMANA and there was coverage of his return. Coronell himself argues that sectors close to Uribe were behind the threats, but not the president himself (who he doesn't like or trust anyway, see http://www.polodemocratico.net/No-me-siento-confiado-en-la-mano)

"Noticias Uno claimed that, in 1997, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) seized 50,000 kilos of potassium permanganate from a ship docked in San Francisco. Potassium permanganate is a chemical used in the production of cocaine. The cargo was on its way to Colombia to be delivered to a company called GMP Chemical Products. The owner of GMP was Pedro Moreno Villa, Uribe’s presidential campaign manager. The chemicals seized were sufficient to produce $15 billion worth of cocaine. The DEA confirmed that GMP was Colombia’s biggest importer of potassium permanganate between 1994 and 1998, when Uribe was governor of Medellin and Moreno Villa was his chief of staff."

But the story didn't end there, and eventually the shipment itself was released in 2001 after a legal battle. Several documents covering a few of those later events (from 2000, 2002, 2003):

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/notices/2000/fr08237.htm
http://www.narconews.com/gmpdocumento1.html
http://www.semana.com/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?IdArt=67517

At least, one has to admit that Pedro Juan Moreno (who would die in a helicopter crash in 2006) could legally defend himself and get the chemicals released, even in U.S. courts and before Uribe was elected president. Other than that, I have no idea if he really was guilty.

"Now as for all that 'parapolitica' stuff, there's no way Uribe could have known about it."

I suppose he must have known about parts of it, but probably not all of it. Which hardly makes him a *person* worthy of my admiration in any way, to say the least.

"And all that wiretapping nonsense is just propaganda whipped up by the left."

No, but if you read the articles you'd find that this isn't a new practice and doesn't only affect the left or the opposition.

"Just let Uribe do his job."

Which doesn't make him immune to criticism, just as the accusations against him can also be criticized.

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gatogris says on Dec 13, 2007, 11:55:

Juance, excellent, thanks for the judicious, even-handed treatment of the available information, which is at times scanty.

The overall picture seems to be of a politician with some fairly serious ethical lapses in the past, as well as some compelling, if somewhat circumstantial, evidence that links him at various points to narcotrafficking.

The other side of the coin is the moderate (some would say huge) improvements in security, steady if unspectacular growth, and free trade agreements. Certain human rights workers charge that the humanitarian crisis has merely changed rather than improved, and there is conflicting data on this.

This might seem a silly question, but on balance, what will history say? Or is it too soon to tell?

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Medellin Traveler says on Dec 13, 2007, 15:48:

History will honor Alvaro Uribe as El Forrest Gump de Columbia (sic) for being present during so many important and interesting occasions, all the while, having no clue as to who was in the same room with him, what he was doing there himself, and completely surprised by the fact that so many complete strangers asked him for his opinion after sharing with him, their secret plans for improving security in Colombia.

But who knows, the future is not here yet,

"Huevos Rancheros en Medellin, No Quiero Taco Bell." - www.medellintraveler.com

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slguy says on Dec 13, 2007, 16:05:

Interestin point of view, MT. But- if the president didn't have a hand in the improvements of the last few years- who did?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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juancegomez says on Dec 13, 2007, 17:23:

gatogris : I think that just by looking at his own government and his own public actions there are more than enough ethical reasons to oppose him, as a ruler and as a person, even if a few positive improvements can be recognized.

I don't know what history will say either...history will reach a conclusion that nobody here can predict for sure, because historians from the future will probably have a lot more information available than we do, and will not be subject to the same immediate political passions, even with continuing ideological biases (the traditional left probably will never love him, and the traditional right probably will never hate him, unless something radically changes their views).

All of which could decisively strengthen ***or*** weaken the case against Uribe, as luck may have it, or leave it somewhere in between.

But I don't own that crystal ball...nor do I know about "secret plans for improving security" yet.

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